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Gonna be interesting none the less.

Match is too pragmatic to handle the Joker.

"You know when we catch him he's just gonna go back to the same place. And when he escapes from there, as you know he will, as he always does, he's just going to murder more people cause more havoc than ever. If one person just said "ok, let's just end this now" do you know how many people would be saved?"

That happens to be my opinion.

Batman is personally responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, all because he can't handle taking one life. Even when he doesn't have to do it, in fact.

When the Joker lands himself in one of his own stupid deathtraps, it's Batman who has to save him. No one could blame Batman if the Joker is killed by his own evil. It simply becomes Batman choosing the Joker's life over the lives of all the others that Joker will inevitably destroy.

@Para: "............Kitty~!!!" whee *takes out gun* "I hate cats!"

@Kujo: Agreed

@Stray: I disagree because I agree with kujo, but also because if heroes started just offing villains that were major threats then they'd be no different. Murder is still murder, regardless of the greater good; that's what separates Superman and Batman in a good few reasons.

While Clark is always their for a home that took him in, Bruce is aware of the evils of what was always his home and how in every situation, doing what seems right is not always right.

After all, vigilantes are criminals in their own right for taking the law into their own hands, assualting people (villains are still people bound under the laws), and not turning themselves in for all the damage they do in saving people (major property damage, disturbance of peace, etc.)

Though I personally would ice the clown, its never anyone's call, not even the Gods on high (JLA are referred to as such on occasion.). Fate rolls the dice in the corner and we just play to its parts.

Alright. This is going to be very 'stream of consciousness' and I'll probably contradict myself. I'll probably come to one final conclusion at the end. We'll see. Now:

I still don't really like those examples you present. That's saying that if Batman kills someone, everyone will be ok with killing. If Superman kills Lex Luthor, everyone who doesn't obey the law should die. There's a lot in between where things go very wrong. There's no individual value there.

The idea is that there's nothing that can be done to prevent it by normal means. The reason the Joker always gets off is because he's USING the justice system. You wouldn't rely on cops that are in a criminals pocket to apprehend that criminal. The justice system is flawed. The State can't deal with the Joker based on what's right, only based on the rules that it sets for itself.

It's the same thing with the League. The League sets itself up with all of these rules and backs itself into the same corners. It can't deal with everyone the same way, and apparently it can't distinguish between what's right and wrong. There's no shades of gray, only black and white. It holds itself up and hides behind its rules, just as Batman himself does, and if any of these rules are broken then everything falls down. The tone shifts completely, and there's nothing inside. That's the price of being unyielding.

Killing the Joker is wrong, but that doesn't mean that a lot of good doesn't come from it. I'd dare say that more good comes from it than bad, but only if everyone knows who they are, and therein lies the problem. To be a superhero you're throwing away who YOU are, and replacing it with what the same rules and codes that are the problem in the first place.

If there's a problem, deal with it the best way that you can. If Joker is killing hundreds of people and you know he'll get away with it and you know he's going to kill hundreds more, then kill him. If it's Batman that murders the Joker, put him on trial for it. If he's convicted, he can serve his time. If he's aquitted, as Magog was, THEN see where you're at. You don't have to decide whether it's right or wrong, you don't have to understand what he was thinking, and you don't have to follow his lead. Just know yourself.

If Batman becomes judge, jury, and executioner.... STOP HIM! The whole reason this problem arose is because people are getting away with murder. And that's it! That's my main point. People can't get away with murder. If Joker's killing people, he won't stop killing people, the justice system can't stop him from killing people, then he has to go. If Batman kills the Joker and can't stop killing after that, and the justice system can't stop him from killing people, and the Justice League can't stop him from killing people, then he has to go too. If Superman sees that Batman killed the Joker and decides to kill Lex Luthor, and HE can't stop killing people, then someone has to stop him.

If it goes down the line and EVERYTHING goes to s**t because of this one incident, then it was going to be inevitable. If Batman, Superman, and the entire Justice League is so unstable that just the tiniest little shift in the scales makes the whole tower collapse, then we don't need superheroes.

If Batman sat around in his mansion and did nothing, then the Joker would be killed by a police officer or the SWAT team, whose job it is to neutralize targets to preserve life, and that wouldn't be murder. They'd probably be commended, and they'd probably sleep well that night, and they will have saved untold numbers of lives. If Batman, or Superman, or ANYONE can't maintain their stability enough that killing someone doesn't make them lose their s**t then they shouldn't have that job.

We don't even have to be talking about murder. Magog probably walked up to Joker on the street and killed him straight up when no one's life is threatened. Superman barged into Lex Luthor's office and killed him when he's just sitting at his desk. THAT is murder.

But when Batman is looking Joker straight in the eyes, the Joker is holding a detonator about to kill ten thousand orphans and Batman STILL can't put him down once and for all, then there's a problem.

@Stray: Alright I'll go more into a sense with you on this. I agree, killing is wrong, but laws are in place so that a person is given as much a fair chance as an innocent man. Yes in this way the laws are flawed, but I disagree with the world being black and white; its not, people just deny or refuse to look for the gray. A hero doesn't stoop to the level of those they fight, a hero is there not to just save lives, but work as an example for others. Sure I can see letting the Joker go, but hey, he's in Bruce's jurisdiction, not Clark's; who would have more than easily been able to stick him in that pocket universe thing.

It all comes back to this, Joker not only is a Gotham citizen, but he's just a man. A sick, twisted, and dangerously brilliant man, but human nonetheless. Ultraman was an evil Superman, same with Superwoman being an evil Wonder Woman, and Owl Man being to cunning to stay cooped up anywhere in the mainstream universe for long. You see it as justice, but then where is the Joker's justice for being murdered, sure he's killed his fair share, but a life is a life; no matter the crimes committed.

If Batman killed Joker he wouldn't be able to stay as Batman, cause that's not what Batman is or what he stands for. He'd be Bruce Wayne, the murder, the crack pot behind a mask. Gotham would be left to those else as he would step down. Another key factor in all of this, not everyone can be stopped. Given that the alternate Superman's strength level was weaker due to being out of his universe, suppose our Supes did kill Luthor and went all powerful rule of all. He'd be an unstoppable God, not holding back anymore as he already expressed to Darkseid; he always does.

It would be like that time when he lead Darkseid's forces on a strike against Earth, only one thousand fold worse, like the Omac level of destruction, plus the Blackest Night. Majority of which most of those events nearly meant the end of all reality because they endangered other planets as well as Earth. It goes against character, it goes against the morals taught by that character, and it goes against who we thought to believe that character was. Besides, he's already been given the death penalty before, he's got some kind of immunity to deadly poisons, probably due to his accident.

All in all, the Joker is an example of that gray, how a sad man only needs one bad day; just one, to see beyond his own sanity and become the very vision of insanity. There is always a gray, Red Hood was at first just trying to get by. Gotham was way worse before the Batman and almost returned to that with the arrival of his enemies. People have kids, family members, dying in front of their eyes. Lets not forget the kids Stray, if they began public executions, lil Timmy would grow up either of the three: A killer, To frightened of what might happen if he even steps out of his door for fear he'd break a law and be killed, or view no one as a hero, possibly trying to restore what it really means to be a hero.

Heroes save lives, they don't take them.

Killing a killer does not make the world right, maybe for the moment, but chaos will eventually bring about ruin. That's why Joker taunts people into killing him, he's all about chaos, ruin, and thinking about what happens ahead rather than at the moment. He wants that chaos, he wants that ruin, he wants someone with a big title to actual end his life; preferably in front of an audience in a gruesome, yet quick fashion. Like that one episode of Batman that was really a fear induced vision brought on by Scarecrow where Barbra fell to her death all the way down on top of her father's squad car. It was in front of millions and being broadcast on the news, sure it was just an illusion, but if it where real it would have been horrible for many people, such a sight is not for the faint of heart; even those with a stronger heart still find such a thing atrocious.

Oh my god we have a debate goin' on in here! O_O (BTW Stray, Yes, that episode of Supernatural was awesome. It is a very good show in general and I would love to steal their costumes for Halloween.)

Christ.... Where do I start? BTW I'm not going to quote for fear of upsetting people's eyes. I'm using BLUE for Stray's words and RED for Tyhier's.


That's saying that if Batman kills someone, everyone will be ok with killing. If Superman kills Lex Luthor, everyone who doesn't obey the law should die. There's a lot in between where things go very wrong. There's no individual value there.

I think your forgetting the influence these heroes have on society. Batman, Superman, ect are HEROES. Ordinary people look up to them. What they do is deemed 'right' and 'good'. Can you imagine how many people would kill someone who wronged them if they saw their hero kill? Can you imagine the impact on the children, what they deem right and wrong to be? There'd be a whole generation of Red Hoods(The Robin version not the Joker version). So yes Stray, people would be okay with it, and that's part of the problem.


If Batman becomes judge, jury, and executioner.... STOP HIM!

Not sure if you've noticed Stray, but Bats is hard to catch. Even the League doesn't have an easy time doing so. And if he were to break from his ethics think of just how much harder that would be. If he's not afraid of hurting others to defend himself, how much harder would he be to catch. Personally I believe this is one of the reason's Batman won't kill Joker, for fear of becoming like him and have no one to stop him. At least we can catch Joker.

If it goes down the line and EVERYTHING goes to s**t because of this one incident, then it was going to be inevitable. If Batman, Superman, and the entire Justice League is so unstable that just the tiniest little shift in the scales makes the whole tower collapse, then we don't need superheroes.

Oh God here we go. Nothing is inevitable Stray, nothing. By our own human nature the killing of another is an unstable act. It creates something in us that most scientists can't explain. The absolute in humanity of it can drive a person into insanity. And I['m talking a normal, healthy person here, not those that have the toughest lives as heroes. By adding insanity to a hero, we are really leaving things to chance because by definition their lives are hectic, stressful, and they've truly seen hell. Do you really want to take the chance of having a mad vigilante Batman over that of a crazy Joker? 'Cause really, we have no idea all the horror that could possibly happen with Bats. At least we can predict Joker to a level.
And of course we need heroes Stray! How could you even say that? In real life it is more than evident that we need heroes, and your saying in this fictional world where heroes have a physical role to play that they aren't needed? Please Stray, stop and think for a moment.

That's assuming that killing inevitably brings about chaos. But if one man weighed it in his mind and killed the Joker, ready to accept the consequences for the action, then that's chaos.

Stray, Killing is a chaotic event. Seriously, stop and think about it. Put yourself in a killer's shoes and imagine your killing Joker. Scary isn't it? Grotesque even. It's a traumatic thing for a person to watch, let alone commit. And going over it in your head, planning it and saying it's for 'the greater good' won't dull that. Well, perhaps a little, but there's still be so much psychological damage. Yea, I'd describe that as chaos.
And if someone could honestly walk up to someone and kill them without feeling any remorse, guilt, pain, ect and actually feel they did a good thing there is something very wrong with that person.

The Joker doesn't taunt everyone into killing, he only taunts the mentally unstable.

No he taunts everyone. Only the mentally unstable fall for it though. Just correcting.

You're humanizing the Joker.

Yes, that's because the Joker is a human. He was once a person, had a family and lived a normal life. If you dehumanize him you are becoming like a true murderer. A real killer doesn't see the victim, he/she sees an object or a persona. In order to be fair and as free of cruelty as possible we must not become that way. We must see objectively.

The Joker dehumanizes himself. He doesn't contemplate morality. And when I'm talking about chaos, I'm referring to societal decay. One person killing a man doesn't make everyone think it's ok to kill, and it shouldn't.

Notice I didn't say we don't need heroes, but rather we don't need superheroes. Heroes can do good things and help people and struggle and fall individually. We don't need people put up on a pedestal and revered so much that people think that everything that they do must be right. If your hero does something that's objectionable, you shouldn't assume that what they're doing must be right just because they're doing it. It's that kind of idolotry that causes problems. Even superheroes are just people. They can't be perfect. The whole point of a hero is to see the best in people, not emulate them.

Think about a similar role - rockstars. Rockstars are BIG, people love them, and rockstars are generally known for two things: philanthropy and drug abuse. Helping people = good, drugs = bad. That's not a difficult distinction to make.

The entire problem is that people really cannot think for themselves - they'll do what ever important people do. Hell if I know why.... Hell, you're completely right. If Batman killed someone, everyone would assume that meant it was alright to kill.

The problem isn't morals, right and wrong, Batman, the justice system, or any of that. It's people.

People are just retarded. They'll torture someone to death just because someone else told them to. Hell, I guess if Batman and the League is making sure at least SOMEONE is left alive then they're doing pretty good.

Of course, no one has presented any good reason to keep the Joker alive. If the Joker happened to fall over a cliff or something, no one would really mind? Your arguments aren't that the Joker shouldn't die, it's that someone killing the Joker would lead to more trouble, especially someone from the League.

I'll present my argument again, of an ordinary man killing the Joker. You've presented your case that it would cause chaos - but so far you've only said it would cause chaos in his own mind and his own life. If this man is willing to face thos consequences and serve his time then justice is upheld. No one has compromised and the heroes remain heroes. Right?