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 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:36 am
Lethkhar You're wrong. Angels appeared in the form of humans to Abraham, if I remember correctly. The apostles also reported human-formed angels. Isaiah 6:2 Attending him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. Daniel 8:17-18 As I, Daniel, was trying to understand the meaning of this vision, someone who looked like a man stood in front of me. And I heard a human voice calling out from the Ulai River, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of his vision.” As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell with my face to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end.” Luke 1:11-12 While Zechariah was in the sanctuary, an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the incense altar. Zechariah was shaken and overwhelmed with fear when he saw him. Luke 1:26-31 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee, to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David. Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! Most people who see angels have the crap scared out of them. The people who were visited by angels that appeared purely human didn't RECOGNIZE them as angels until much later. Chances are, if an angel appeared to you today you'd wet your pants. And then on top of it, people who SEE angels can rarely keep the information to themselves. You'd get locked up in a loony bin in a heartbeat. To keep his followers out of such places, I imagine God has cut back on the flashy stuff a bit.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:44 am
Thanks for the versus ryuu, I didn't want Lethkar to just take my word for it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:47 pm
ryuu_chan Lethkhar You're wrong. Angels appeared in the form of humans to Abraham, if I remember correctly. The apostles also reported human-formed angels. Isaiah 6:2 Attending him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. Daniel 8:17-18 As I, Daniel, was trying to understand the meaning of this vision, someone who looked like a man stood in front of me. And I heard a human voice calling out from the Ulai River, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of his vision.” As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell with my face to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end.” Luke 1:11-12 While Zechariah was in the sanctuary, an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the incense altar. Zechariah was shaken and overwhelmed with fear when he saw him. Luke 1:26-31 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee, to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David. Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! Most people who see angels have the crap scared out of them. The people who were visited by angels that appeared purely human didn't RECOGNIZE them as angels until much later. Chances are, if an angel appeared to you today you'd wet your pants. And then on top of it, people who SEE angels can rarely keep the information to themselves. You'd get locked up in a loony bin in a heartbeat. To keep his followers out of such places, I imagine God has cut back on the flashy stuff a bit. Why can't everyone see the angels? You can't call it insane if it's well-documented and universally experienced. Abraham recognized the human-formed angels instantly. Genesis 18:2 And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:50 am
Abraham, not quite, did you read the entire passage? It never once says Abraham recognized these men as angels. He treated them as guests, yes, because that was a tradition in ancient times. His wife is even said to laugh at what these men say. God is the one who talks to Abraham not these men. Now, I don't doubt they were angels, because God says they were later. The Bible also says Abraham did not recognize them as angels. Genesis 18:2-5 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed to himself to the ground, and said, "My *Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will bring a morself of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." As you can see, he is just treating them as guests. In the following versus, he has a natural conversation with them, in which they say his 90 something year-old wife was going to get pregnant, and she laughs at them. She would not have laughed at them if she thought they were angels. Her family clearly believed in God and his miracles. Genesis 18:17-18 And the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" God said that Abraham did not know the purpose of the visit of those three men, to test the hearts of the people in Sodom. Since Abraham passed the test, God informed them of his plans to destroy Sodom and gave them time to escape. Consider this: Matthew 27: 1-4 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of teh Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. The angel was so terrifying it made a bunch of big bad Roman soldiers faint, and when they woke up, they were paid not to tell what happened. They agreed. They obviously didn't care that they had just seen angels, which pretty much proved Jesus was God. They took their money and never converted.
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:33 pm
Goldenlici Abraham, not quite, did you read the entire passage? It never once says Abraham recognized these men as angels. He treated them as guests, yes, because that was a tradition in ancient times. His wife is even said to laugh at what these men say. God is the one who talks to Abraham not these men. Now, I don't doubt they were angels, because God says they were later. The Bible also says Abraham did not recognize them as angels. Genesis 18:2-5 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed to himself to the ground, and said, "My *Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will bring a morself of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." As you can see, he is just treating them as guests. In the following versus, he has a natural conversation with them, in which they say his 90 something year-old wife was going to get pregnant, and she laughs at them. She would not have laughed at them if she thought they were angels. Her family clearly believed in God and his miracles. Genesis 18:17-18 And the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" God said that Abraham did not know the purpose of the visit of those three men, to test the hearts of the people in Sodom. Since Abraham passed the test, God informed them of his plans to destroy Sodom and gave them time to escape. Consider this: Matthew 27: 1-4 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of teh Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. The angel was so terrifying it made a bunch of big bad Roman soldiers faint, and when they woke up, they were paid not to tell what happened. They agreed. They obviously didn't care that they had just seen angels, which pretty much proved Jesus was God. They took their money and never converted. How do you know they never converted? Does the Bible say that? God is omnipotent. He could make me realise it's an angel and not have me s**t my pants. Unless, of course, you don't think God could do such a thing?
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:58 pm
So you want God to come into your life, prove He exists, and tell you how to feel about it?
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:48 pm
Goldenlici So you want God to come into your life, prove He exists, and tell you how to feel about it? No, I want God to come into my life and prove He exists. As long as I've got unquestionable proof, I can interpret it however I want.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:46 am
Lethkar He could make me realise it's an angel and not have me s**t my pants. You just said you want God to tell you how to feel about if an angel visited. "Unquestionable proof" is always questioned by those who do not want to believe. Go back to when we were discussing Moses parting the Red Sea. Christian scientists found a stretch of land that matched the description in the bible exactly, they found evidence that people had crossed the water there, and found the remains of the soldiers that were killed when the God caused the water to come back down to protect His people. The Bible was written long before people began to try and prove it's every word, yet this story was proven. Right? Wrong, as I'm sure you know. People nit-pick every little detail about this "proof" because they don't want to believe. "Unquestionable proof" will never exist for those who do not want to believe. People who see angels can write it off as a dream or hallucination. People who hear God's voice can say the same thing. Or, they can choose simply not to believe what they saw.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:00 pm
Quote: Goldenlici Lethkar He could make me realise it's an angel and not have me s**t my pants. You just said you want God to tell you how to feel about if an angel visited. "Unquestionable proof" is always questioned by those who do not want to believe. As I've already said; I want to believe. It's hardly unquestionable proof if someone questions it. wink Quote: Go back to when we were discussing Moses parting the Red Sea. Christian scientists found a stretch of land that matched the description in the bible exactly, they found evidence that people had crossed the water there, and found the remains of the soldiers that were killed when the God caused the water to come back down to protect His people. The Bible was written long before people began to try and prove it's every word, yet this story was proven. Right? Wrong, as I'm sure you know. People nit-pick every little detail about this "proof" because they don't want to believe. Not me. I've already given my view on this, though. I don't consider it proof of God because it could have been coincidence, so that's not the kind of proof I'm looking for. Quote: "Unquestionable proof" will never exist for those who do not want to believe. People who see angels can write it off as a dream or hallucination. People who hear God's voice can say the same thing. Or, they can choose simply not to believe what they saw. Then it obviously wasn't compelling enough. God needs to step up His game.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:19 pm
Then, he encroaches on free-will. stare gonk I'm just going to copy and paste what I said about free-will on the other topic (Interesting debate, warning: somewhat explicit). Quote: Free-will is something you have but don't want to believe in, which proves you do have it. Logically, would you be able to say you don't have free will if you really didn't? What is the purpose of letting someone believe in free-will, when it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, what does that say. Logically, something has to determine how your life is controlled, so that you don't have free-will. The only logical solution I see is that free-will does exist. Let me explain more clearly: About free-will existing, either ... 1. You believe it does, then my arguments work. or 2. You believe it does not, then there is a force governing your life What then does logic leave you?
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:34 pm
Goldenlici Then, he encroaches on free-will. stare gonk I'm just going to copy and paste what I said about free-will on the other topic (Interesting debate, warning: somewhat explicit). Quote: Free-will is something you have but don't want to believe in, which proves you do have it. Logically, would you be able to say you don't have free will if you really didn't? What is the purpose of letting someone believe in free-will, when it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, what does that say. Logically, something has to determine how your life is controlled, so that you don't have free-will. The only logical solution I see is that free-will does exist. Let me explain more clearly: About free-will existing, either ... 1. You believe it does, then my arguments work. or 2. You believe it does not, then there is a force governing your life What then does logic leave you? That whole discussion was rather confusing. You're going to need to clarify it in the discussion. My responses were rather muddled because I wasn't really sure where on earth you were coming from. I don't think God encroaches on my free will by proving to me that He exists. I can still make the choice to ask for forgiveness.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:43 pm
Are you saying that if you knew there was an all-powerful, omnipotent God, who knew every little thing aobut you and could either send you to hell or give you all the gifts His powers allow Him to give, that you would honestly choose not to ask for forgiveness?
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:57 pm
Goldenlici Are you saying that if you knew there was an all-powerful, omnipotent God, who knew every little thing aobut you and could either send you to hell or give you all the gifts His powers allow Him to give, that you would honestly choose not to ask for forgiveness? No, I'm saying just the opposite. If God proved His existence to me, I would ask for forgiveness.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:25 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Are you saying that if you knew there was an all-powerful, omnipotent God, who knew every little thing aobut you and could either send you to hell or give you all the gifts His powers allow Him to give, that you would honestly choose not to ask for forgiveness? No, I'm saying just the opposite. If God proved His existence to me, I would ask for forgiveness. But, you just said : Lethkar I don't think God encroaches on my free will by proving to me that He exists. I can still make the choice to ask for forgiveness. God is an extremely, unimaginably powerful being. I don't doubt that if you knew for sure there was a God, you would believe in Him. If God knew for certain you would believe in Him, then He would be taking away your free-will by showing you for sure He existed.
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:40 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Are you saying that if you knew there was an all-powerful, omnipotent God, who knew every little thing aobut you and could either send you to hell or give you all the gifts His powers allow Him to give, that you would honestly choose not to ask for forgiveness? No, I'm saying just the opposite. If God proved His existence to me, I would ask for forgiveness. But, you just said : Lethkar I don't think God encroaches on my free will by proving to me that He exists. I can still make the choice to ask for forgiveness. Exactly. I would make the choice to ask for forgiveness. Quote: God is an extremely, unimaginably powerful being. I don't doubt that if you knew for sure there was a God, you would believe in Him. If God knew for certain you would believe in Him, then He would be taking away your free-will by showing you for sure He existed. But by that same token, if God knows for certain that I wouldn't believe him if He didn't prove Himself to me, wouldn't He be taking my free will by not showing me for sure that He existed? In which case, I really don't have any free will on that matter.
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