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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:58 pm
Captain_Shinzo MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? Either way, it would make a bad argument since most religions don't really hate homosexuality and anything not religious is usually debunkable.I have no idea what you're talking about. You should really try to be more clear. Speaking in metaphor is one thing, but you're simply not making sense. An argument was made, according to this thread, by an atheist that involved depopulation. However, the planet is overpopulated as it is, and since only 1/10 or so people are gay, it would really be more of a benefit than anything else, from an anthropological perspective.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:06 pm
divineseraph Captain_Shinzo MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? Either way, it would make a bad argument since most religions don't really hate homosexuality and anything not religious is usually debunkable.I have no idea what you're talking about. You should really try to be more clear. Speaking in metaphor is one thing, but you're simply not making sense. An argument was made, according to this thread, by an atheist that involved depopulation. However, the planet is overpopulated as it is, and since only 1/10 or so people are gay, it would really be more of a benefit than anything else, from an anthropological perspective. I'm saying, either argument against homosexuality, religious or not, will probably be debunked from what I have seen.
I know of the depopulization method but I don't understand why you mentioned it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:14 pm
MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:18 pm
Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?"
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:23 pm
Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. There not religious but they aren't good either. I took a look at the first link and it was just talking of how it would cause problems for other marriage cases such as incest. However, that is a poor excuse for an argument. The second link was mostly on reproduction which can easily be tampered with. I couldn't see the third one because I can't use my speakers.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:25 pm
divineseraph Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" Agreed.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:41 pm
divineseraph Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:43 pm
Captain_Shinzo Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. There not religious but they aren't good either. I took a look at the first link and it was just talking of how it would cause problems for other marriage cases such as incest. However, that is a poor excuse for an argument. The second link was mostly on reproduction which can easily be tampered with. I couldn't see the third one because I can't use my speakers.Like I said before. You have to be open minded to have a decent conversation on this.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:52 pm
Semiremis Captain_Shinzo Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. There not religious but they aren't good either. I took a look at the first link and it was just talking of how it would cause problems for other marriage cases such as incest. However, that is a poor excuse for an argument. The second link was mostly on reproduction which can easily be tampered with. I couldn't see the third one because I can't use my speakers.Like I said before. You have to be open minded to have a decent conversation on this. Well, I am opened on some things but you can't limit humans by politics. I found not that much reason on WHY there couldn't be homosexual marriage. The only things there related to reproduction and not only were they half/half what-if questions, the other half could just be debunked. Again, I was opened minded on this before and it didn't hold too much water to an argument.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:57 pm
Semiremis divineseraph Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it. The first article said that the law restricts some marriages. So if the point wasn't about legal justification, what was it about?
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:08 pm
Semiremis *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it. Concerning the first article, the arguments mainly rely on how tradition marriage are supposed to properly reflect how the sexes interact with each other and that marriage is supposed to benefit society by procreation and being productive members of said society. The thing is though that our society structure is changing. Traditional gender roles are changing or becoming non-existent. While different it's not necessarily a bad thing. Things will have to be ironed out but it can be ironed out. While there seems to be an argument against children living in fatherless homes, it seems to ignore that there are individuals within homosexual relationships that can take up different gender roles. More research will be needed of course to make a conclusion but it's assuming that gender roles are fixed with one's biological sex which studies have shown this is not the case. Finally it assumes that to insure investment in a society and government, one has to have a family interest at stake. Well how family is defined is currently being redefined to reflect our societal changes. Government is going to change, scary as that is, it's going to happen. When the US government decides to recognize these 'new' families, will there be more participation of these 'new' families within the government. I'll have to examine the other articles later.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:32 pm
divineseraph Semiremis divineseraph Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it. The first article said that the law restricts some marriages. So if the point wasn't about legal justification, what was it about? It was to help provide a foundation to the fact that marriage isn't a legal right granted to all citizens. A lot of people argue that marriage is a right and that gay marriage should be allowed because as a right it should be granted to all and if not than you are denying someone their equal rights. The author did not then proceed to make the argument that gay marriage is not okay because it's not legal (which is the direction you were going in with it). On this topic (on marriage restriction) he says "I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. "
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:36 pm
Semiremis divineseraph Semiremis divineseraph I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it. The first article said that the law restricts some marriages. So if the point wasn't about legal justification, what was it about? It was to help provide a foundation to the fact that marriage isn't a legal right granted to all citizens. A lot of people argue that marriage is a right and that gay marriage should be allowed because as a right it should be granted to all and if not than you are denying someone their equal rights. The author did not then proceed to make the argument that gay marriage is not okay because it's not legal (which is the direction you were going in with it). On this topic (on marriage restriction) he says "I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. "And that's exactly why I said what I said. I don't care if it's a legal right. The law is irrelevant. The logic there is still begging the question for the very same reason- Gay marriage is wrong because it is illegal. It is illegal because it is wrong. Invalid logic. Try again.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:42 pm
Semiremis divineseraph Semiremis divineseraph I don't care about the law. Remember, it was once legal to own slaves and illegal for women to vote. This is a case of a logical fallacy of Begging the Question- Gay marriage is wrong because it is against the law. Gay marriage is against the law because it is wrong. Slavery is OK because it is legal. Slavery is legal because it is OK. It's circular and begs the question "Why is it wrong in the first place, to be against the law?" *nods* Although I'm not sure how that applies here. Did any of the sources try to make a case that something being lawful means it must necessarily than be correct? I know the video didn't, I didn't see it in any of the articles either but I didn't read through them front to back so I could have missed it. The first article said that the law restricts some marriages. So if the point wasn't about legal justification, what was it about? It was to help provide a foundation to the fact that marriage isn't a legal right granted to all citizens. A lot of people argue that marriage is a right and that gay marriage should be allowed because as a right it should be granted to all and if not than you are denying someone their equal rights. The law can state whatever it wants to. I don't give a damn if it says Atheists can't marry, two individuals should be able to marry and that seems to be that. If there is anything else you might have besides, well, "The law states..." or reproduction, I would like to hear it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:44 pm
Captain_Shinzo Semiremis Captain_Shinzo Semiremis MingLeChat Captain_Shinzo Oh, I'm sorry I tried to argue to your sister on a subject she brought up. I apologize for being as calm as I could and ask nicely on her ideals. I'm SUCH a bad person. D:
Grow up, kid, this is a debate guild not Gummi-bear land. k, so that aside.... I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that is not either grounded in religious beliefs or personal preference (usually leading back to religious beliefs) so, I will say that MOST are related to religion out of the ones I have heard. VERY FEW are not. Can someone show me a sample where the argument is either written by an atheist or does not use their faith as their reason towards being against gay marriage? I've heard many (I'll throw a couple sources that go into secular arguments against gay marriage below). The Secular Case Against Gay MarriageThe Case AgainstMagnuson on legal aspects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gWM36_gXIMost far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficult. There not religious but they aren't good either. I took a look at the first link and it was just talking of how it would cause problems for other marriage cases such as incest. However, that is a poor excuse for an argument. The second link was mostly on reproduction which can easily be tampered with. I couldn't see the third one because I can't use my speakers.Like I said before. You have to be open minded to have a decent conversation on this. Well, I am opened on some things but you can't limit humans by politics. I found not that much reason on WHY there couldn't be homosexual marriage. The only things there related to reproduction and not only were they half/half what-if questions, the other half could just be debunked. Again, I was opened minded on this before and it didn't hold too much water to an argument.There were more arguments than the ones based on human reproduction which do have their merits but eventually break apart (my opinion even after reading the arguments based around the necessity of having a father and mother in order to ensure the best scenario for the development of human young). You must be some sort of genius though, to go through the information so fast while at the same time giving it some thought, either that or you fit into a category similar to the first one I mentioned: Most far left liberals are typically not open minded enough to even briefly look over some of the arguments made in articles like the two I posted above which makes discussion and consideration of the points sort of difficultMaybe I'm being rude here but I don't think you really looked into it. You couldn't have. Take some time...think about it. Meditate over what being fair and open-minded really means. A quick glance with your mind already made up doesn't fit the category of open-minded but maybe I'm the only one who thinks that.
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