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I didn't say it wasn't okay to kill an abusive partner. I said that one might go to jail for it, though in the past some women were able to not go to jail because their partners were abusive.

Personally, I don't think that people should get involved with abusive people. I understand why someone would not want to carry a pregnancy to term if their partner was abusive, but I really don't know how I would react to such a thing (since my abuser forcibly gave me an abortion - I had no choice in the matter). But, my husband isn't abusive, and I wouldn't abort any healthy pregnancy we created - though we take precautions not to get pregnant until we want to be.

I really can't say if it is okay to abort a pregnancy if one's partner is abusive or if it is okay to kill one's abusive partner. I'm sure, to the people who do either of these things, it seems like the only option. But there are safe houses where one can go (with one's children) to get away from an abuser - and I feel that this is the best option.

Well, there are laws in place to protect people from abuse, but a lot of times those laws don't help. First, in many instances partner on partner abuse is not considered to be abuse of children. For example, let's say my boyfriend beats me unconscious in front of our children. Judges can (and do) rule that this had nothing to do with whether or not can see his children because he beat me, not them. Second, you have to be able to prove that the abuse happened. A man molests his child? A woman beats her child with a coat hanger? Means nothing if it can't be proven. Third, a lot of the time parents are allowed to see their children even if abuse can be proven because the parents have "changed" and/or what can be proven isn't "that bad." It is really, really hard to get someone's parental rights terminated against their will, even if they are awful parents. Fourth, all of this means that I would have to put up with abuse for an unknown period of time before I can even start trying to break it off. A guy beats me black and blue every day for a year, I leave, and then two months later I find out I'm pregnant? I don't know about you, but I don't want to go back and hope that someday I'll be able to get his parental rights terminated. I want to know then and there that as far as the law is concerned, he can't make me have contact with him.

Now, I hope to avoid this entire situation by not getting involved with an abusive person. That way, I don't have to make this decision. But I don't think most women go into a relationship thinking, "Man, he's so awful that I can't imagine having a child tie us together."

Oh, I agree. 100% No question. Which is part of why it was so hard to work at a domestic violence shelter. You interacted with victims of abuse while knowing that in all likelihood the abusers would still get court ordered visitation.


Certainly it would be best to change the laws. But simply breaking the laws won't make them change. If my goal is to protect myself, to keep from being abused, then breaking the law and being sent to jail does not accomplish that goal.

Well, it's not just that the child has the right to see the parent. Certainly that is something the court system wants, but that isn't all of it. As it is, parents can go to court and say, "The other parent is depriving me of my right to see my child." The child doesn't have to go to court and say, "My parent is depriving me of my right to see my other parent, " and people don't have to go to court on behalf of a child for visitation rights. This is part of why parents can see their children even if the children don't want to see them. It's also why (to the best of my knowledge) parents aren't forced to see their children against their will. As far as I'm aware, legally a parent can force a child to visit, but a child cannot force a parent to visit.

Regardless, my point still stands. Whether the right stems from the child or from the parent, I would be equally tied to an abusive person.

And I don't think you can beat your wife and be a fit father. As far as I'm concerned, beating your wife is abusing your children.

EDIT: Is there really a right for the child to know their parents? I know that the court system thinks it is good for a child to know their parents, but I'm less certain about it being a right. I mean, if that is an right, then where does that place adoption and/or other modes of willing termination of parental rights?