|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:52 pm
CCubed BEING homosexual is not a sin, and so, it is possible to be both christian and homosexual. ACTING upon homosexual desires in a physical or mental way is wrong however. So forming a lasting, loving relationship with another male is forbidden to me, even though I am incapable of having that relationship with a woman? Quote: So it would depend on what you're trying to say, truly. If you're just saying that BEING homosexual is no sin, then yes. However, if you're saying that ACTING upon homosexual desires is okay, then no. Provide proof that is not easily refutable through OL and context. Quote: Please realize that regardless of the one verse, God still destroyed two entire cities because of homosexual acts. I believe that's proof enough of his viewpoint. Ezekiel 16:49-50 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. www.godmademegay.com/letter.htm Genesis 18:20 to 19:29--The Sodom Story Some consider the sin of Sodom to be same-gender sex, although we are not told in Genesis what Sodom's sins were, only that they were so great that God determined to destroy the city. On the evening before its destruction he sent two angels, in disguise as men, to the city to lead Lot and his family out early the next day. Hospitable Lot invited them to spend the night at his house. During the evening the men of the city surrounded the house and demanded of Lot that he bring the two men out so that they could [19:5] King James Version: "know them." Revised Standard Version: "know them." New International Version: "have sex with them." When Lot refused to bring his guests out, the men of the city were about to break his door down when the angels struck them all blind and the mob dispersed. The next day Lot and his family were led out of Sodom, and the city was destroyed by fire and brimstone from heaven. The Hebrew verb used here, "yadha," "to know," is used 943 times in the OT and only ten times clearly to mean "have sex," then it always means heterosexual sex. The word normally used for homosexual sex is "shakhabh." Many scholars believe that in Gen. 19:5 yadha means "know" in the sense of "get acquainted with" (the city's men may have wondered if these were enemy spies or they might have sensed the city's impending doom and been concerned with what these strangers were doing there) and have several arguments for this, including Sodom's being used as an example of great sin numerous times in the Old and New Testaments with nothing ever said about same-sex sex, and the context of Jesus' references to Sodom (Luke 10:10-13) which seems to imply lack of hospitality as the sin. Other scholars think it was the common practice of showing dominance over and humiliating outsiders by forcing them to take the part of a (an inferior) woman in a same-gender rape. Others think it means "have sex," and point to Lot's offering his two virgin daughters to the crowd if sex is what they want, if they will just leave his guests alone. If this is the right interpretation, it is clearly about violent, criminal, gang rape, something always condemnable. Another thought is expressed by Religion Professor David L. Bartlett: "This story is certainly an unlikely starting point for a `biblical' understanding of sexual ethics. While the attempted homosexual rape by the men of Sodom is explicitly condemned, the offer by Lot to hand his two virgin daughters over to the violent and lecherous inhabitants of Sodom is related without a word of judgment."B-2 Conservative theologian Richard Hays says, "The notorious story of Sodom and Gomorrah--often cited in connection with homosexuality--is actually irrelevant to the topic."B-3 There is nothing in this story applicable to our consideration of homosexuality.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:13 am
CrazyKat685 Oh snaps, well i totally put a typo, God is holy, righteous, just, and perfect. The unrighteousness of God that i typed was not implying the unrighteousness of Him, because God has no unrighteousness, but the unrighteousness of man in God's eyes, which is precisely what Paul is referring to. Thanks. Quote: My bad. Hey! I am not condemning you or anyone who is a homosexual, but if you are a homosexual, and are professing to be a follower of Jesus Christ, your hypocrisy speaks louder than your profession of faith in Christ. You're not condemning me, just telling me I'm a hypocrite. Thanks, that's great to know. Quote: This is all out of love bro, no hard feelings, judgment, or damning or whatever might be thought of what was posted. From your extensive research in the Greek, i see that you have gone to extreme lengths to justify your definition of homosexuality in the Bible. You're right. Putting the words of the bible into the context of the culture they were written in and the nuances of the language they were originally written in is obviously altering the bible to suit my own purposes. neutral Quote: It is sad because your missing the context of the Word of God, and justifying what the Word of God is saying so you can live in your sin. am putting the verses back in context. YOU are taking them out of context. Quote: So why did Sodom and Gomorrah get judged for their sin? They were sexually perverted in homosexual ways, not lacking hospitality like some theologians say. It was purely because of their sexual immorality. Ezekiel 16:49-50 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Quote: Plus in Leviticus it clearly states it is an abomination to God Himself. www.godmademegay.com/letter.htm Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 Revised Standard Version: 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination. 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death… The King James and New International versions say virtually the same thing. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are the only direct references to same-gender sex in the Old Testament. They are both part of the Old Testament Holiness Code, a religious, not a moral code; it later became the Jewish Purity Laws. [“Abomination” is used throughout the Old Testament to designate sins that involve ethnic contamination or idolatry. The word relates to the failure to worship God or to worshiping a false god; it does not relate to morality.] Professor Soards tell us, “Old Testament experts view the regulations of Leviticus as standards of holiness, directives for the formation of community life, aimed at establishing and maintaining a people’s identity in relation to God.”B–4 This is because God was so determined that his people would not adopt the practices of the Baal worshipers in Canaan, and same-gender sex was part of Baal worship. (The laws say nothing about women engaging in same-gender sex; probably this had to do with man’s dominance, and such acts by the subservient had nothing to do with religious impurity.) A Letter to Louise http://www.GodMadeMeGay.com 30 of 42 God required purity for his worship. Anything pure was unadulterated, unmixed with anything else These Purity Laws prohibited mixing different threads in one garment, sowing a field with two kinds of seed, crossbreeding animals. A few years ago in Israel when an orthodox government came into power, McDonalds had to stop selling cheeseburgers. Hamburgers, OK. Cheese sandwiches, OK. But mixing milk and meat in one sandwich violated the Purity Laws—it had nothing to do with morality. These were laws about worshipping God, not ethics, and so have no bearing on our discussion of morality. Helmut Thielicke remarks on these passages: “It would never occur to anyone to wrench these laws of cultic purification from their concrete situation and give them the kind of normative authority that the Decalogue, for example, has.”B–5 Another reason they are not pertinent to our discussion is that these laws were for the particular time and circumstances existing when they were given. If you planted a fruit tree, you could not eat its fruit until its fifth year, and all fruit the fourth year must be offered to the Lord. A worker must be paid his wage on the day of his labor. You must not harvest a field to its edge. We readily dismiss most of them as not applicable to our day and culture, and if we dismiss some of them for any reason, we have to dismiss all of them, including the sexual regulations, for that same reason. When we add the fact that these laws were talking about heterosexuals, it makes three reasons, any one of which would be sufficient, why they have no bearing on questions about homosexuals or homosexuality or on the morality of same-gender sex by homosexuals today. Quote: He said so in the OT and is saying it in the NT. He does not contradict Himself. Quote: The Word of God is clear on His view, now instead of conforming God to what you feel and believe, conform to God's will. I can only pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the truth. So, by putting God's words into the context they were originally written in, I am conforming God to my will MORE than people who assume the Bible was written for the first time twenty years ago in Washington D.C, and then in English?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:22 pm
Man could not live alone and that is why God created WOMEN!!! So that man could love and multiply on the Earth.
I do not mean to be rude but if God wanted people to be gay then why are their women on the earth?
If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world.
God created Eve out of Adam... and in a wedding most pastors say "We have gathered her today to unite this couple into one flesh." (Or along those lines.) What this ment was that when you are married you two become one and you are commited to being with that person for the rest of your life.
Ok now imagin puzzle consisting of two peices.... one is male and the other is female..... a male with male peice does not work. and a female with female peice does not work.... the only proper way to reunite the flesh is if male unites with female.
Just an added thought from one who cares about the world and thinks that this is a truly confusing but interesting topic that does need to be explored.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:16 pm
linkisi I do not mean to be rude but if God wanted people to be gay then why are their women on the earth? Just taking a stab in the dark here, but probably because heterosexual men exist. The existence of heterosexual men (who need women), however, is very faulty logic to prove that God does not will some people to be homosexual. Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. You sin by virtue of being human. Perhaps God would prefer us all to be heterosexual zebras? confused Quote: God created Eve out of Adam... and in a wedding most pastors say "We have gathered her today to unite this couple into one flesh." (Or along those lines.) What this ment was that when you are married you two become one and you are commited to being with that person for the rest of your life. I fail to see how this is any different from me being with my partner for the rest of my life. Quote: Ok now imagin puzzle consisting of two peices.... one is male and the other is female..... a male with male peice does not work. and a female with female peice does not work.... the only proper way to reunite the flesh is if male unites with female. I'll spare you the details, but I've found that a male with a male piece works extremely well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 1:01 am
SinfulGuillotine You sin by virtue of being human. It is not a question of whether of not humans sin, but whether we accept that sin or repent from it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:01 am
Seraph68 SinfulGuillotine You sin by virtue of being human. It is not a question of whether of not humans sin, but whether we accept that sin or repent from it. I realise that, but dear linkisi seems to think that if you sin, you aren't Christian. Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. You'll continue to sin your entire life, Christian or otherwise. Yes, there's a difference between a repentent sinner and an unrepentent sinner, but repentent sinners still sin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:11 pm
linkisi Man could not live alone and that is why God created WOMEN!!! So that man could love and multiply on the Earth. I do not mean to be rude but if God wanted people to be gay then why are their women on the earth? Because God wanted lesbians too, silly! 4laugh Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. Everyone sins, including Christians. The holier-than-thou mentality is pretty much the worst attitude you can take regarding that, as it gives you the status of a pharisee. Quote: God created Eve out of Adam... and in a wedding most pastors say "We have gathered her today to unite this couple into one flesh." Except that, you know, they didn't have weddings, or pastors back then, and we don't have human cloning technology now. Or the english language for that matter. False analogy. Quote: (Or along those lines.) What this ment was that when you are married you two become one and you are commited to being with that person for the rest of your life. ...And this excludes homosexuals how, exactly? Quote: Ok now imagin puzzle consisting of two peices.... one is male and the other is female..... a male with male peice does not work. and a female with female peice does not work.... the only proper way to reunite the flesh is if male unites with female. Male with male and female with female works extremely well. I have detailed diagrams if you need them. Quote: Just an added thought from one who cares about the world and thinks that this is a truly confusing but interesting topic that does need to be explored. So explore it. If the creation story argument is the best you can come up with, you obviously haven't done much research.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:40 pm
Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori linkisi Man could not live alone and that is why God created WOMEN!!! So that man could love and multiply on the Earth. I do not mean to be rude but if God wanted people to be gay then why are their women on the earth? Because God wanted lesbians too, silly! 4laugh Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. Everyone sins, including Christians. The holier-than-thou mentality is pretty much the worst attitude you can take regarding that, as it gives you the status of a pharisee. Quote: God created Eve out of Adam... and in a wedding most pastors say "We have gathered her today to unite this couple into one flesh." Except that, you know, they didn't have weddings, or pastors back then, and we don't have human cloning technology now. Or the english language for that matter. False analogy. Quote: (Or along those lines.) What this ment was that when you are married you two become one and you are commited to being with that person for the rest of your life. ...And this excludes homosexuals how, exactly? Quote: Ok now imagin puzzle consisting of two peices.... one is male and the other is female..... a male with male peice does not work. and a female with female peice does not work.... the only proper way to reunite the flesh is if male unites with female. Male with male and female with female works extremely well. I have detailed diagrams if you need them. Quote: Just an added thought from one who cares about the world and thinks that this is a truly confusing but interesting topic that does need to be explored. So explore it. If the creation story argument is the best you can come up with, you obviously haven't done much research. And once more we're back to Soddom and Gammorah. They were destroyed because of homosexual acts. The word "Know" in the bible when used in the form of a verb means to have sexual relations. For Instance, it says Abraham "Knew" his wife and then she bore a son. IN another case, it says that the people of Soddom and Gammorah wanted to "know" the new visitors. God destroyed the cities because they were commiting all kinds of unholy acts. Homosexuality, Incest(Even after lot and his daughters left), cursing, blasphemeing, etc. Secondly, you said before that God didn't want you to be married to a man. For one, You cannot throw out stories in the bible. God made ADAM and EVE, they were the first example of a marriage, and they had children. This wasn't a mistake. If it was natural, God wouldn't have destroyed an entire city for it. God also makes quite clear the sinfullness of the cities because even abraham goes so far as to ask, "If there are five good people in soddom and gamorrah, will you spare them," the lord replied, "If there are but five, I will postpone my wraith for their sake." Even then, if you were born with homosexual tendencies, then tell me this, did they show up at early stages(meaning teen years)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:10 am
CCubed And once more we're back to Soddom and Gammorah. They were destroyed because of homosexual acts. The word "Know" in the bible when used in the form of a verb means to have sexual relations. It is used 943 times in the bible as a verb. Ten of those times it clearly refers to sex. Each of those ten times, it refers to heterosexual sex. The word for homosexual sex is "shakabh". If this were referring to sex, it would use the word shakabh. Quote: For Instance, it says Abraham "Knew" his wife and then she bore a son. IN another case, it says that the people of Soddom and Gammorah wanted to "know" the new visitors. God destroyed the cities because they were commiting all kinds of unholy acts. Homosexuality, Incest(Even after lot and his daughters left), cursing, blasphemeing, etc. Where exactly do you get incest from? Anyways, Ezekiel 16:49-50, as I have posted SO many times in the last week, clearly says what the sins of Sodom are. The bible verse I am SO sick of posting over and over again because nobody ******** reads it 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Quote: Secondly, you said before that God didn't want you to be married to a man. Never have I said that. Ever. Quote: For one, You cannot throw out stories in the bible. God made ADAM and EVE, they were the first example of a marriage, and they had children. This wasn't a mistake. If it was natural, God wouldn't have destroyed an entire city for it. God didn't intend for Adam and Eve to have sex in the first place. They were only intended to be emotional partners. Even if God HAD intended them to have sex, it would make sense for them to be a man and a woman, as statistics say this is the most common orientation - heterosexual. They were statistically likely to be heterosexual. God didn't destroy Sodom for gay sex! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS PEOPLE. Quote: God also makes quite clear the sinfullness of the cities because even abraham goes so far as to ask, "If there are five good people in soddom and gamorrah, will you spare them," the lord replied, "If there are but five, I will postpone my wraith for their sake." We're not debating the sinfulness of the cities. We're debating whether their sinfulness has anything to do with the topic at hand. Quote: Even then, if you were born with homosexual tendencies, then tell me this, did they show up at early stages(meaning teen years)? Yes. They actually showed up around..... fourth grade, I believe. The best friend (male) of the girl my parents wanted me to meet was really really cute. ^-^ Squee! And even before then, I found toy trucks deadly boring. My parents would set some stupid "boy toy" down in front of me, and I would look at it for about five seconds before going back to my Orson Scott Card novels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:30 am
Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori CCubed And once more we're back to Soddom and Gammorah. They were destroyed because of homosexual acts. The word "Know" in the bible when used in the form of a verb means to have sexual relations. It is used 943 times in the bible as a verb. Ten of those times it clearly refers to sex. Each of those ten times, it refers to heterosexual sex. The word for homosexual sex is "shakabh". If this were referring to sex, it would use the word shakabh. Quote: For Instance, it says Abraham "Knew" his wife and then she bore a son. IN another case, it says that the people of Soddom and Gammorah wanted to "know" the new visitors. God destroyed the cities because they were commiting all kinds of unholy acts. Homosexuality, Incest(Even after lot and his daughters left), cursing, blasphemeing, etc. Where exactly do you get incest from? Anyways, Ezekiel 16:49-50, as I have posted SO many times in the last week, clearly says what the sins of Sodom are. The bible verse I am SO sick of posting over and over again because nobody ******** reads it 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Quote: Secondly, you said before that God didn't want you to be married to a man. Never have I said that. Ever. Quote: For one, You cannot throw out stories in the bible. God made ADAM and EVE, they were the first example of a marriage, and they had children. This wasn't a mistake. If it was natural, God wouldn't have destroyed an entire city for it. God didn't intend for Adam and Eve to have sex in the first place. They were only intended to be emotional partners. Even if God HAD intended them to have sex, it would make sense for them to be a man and a woman, as statistics say this is the most common orientation - heterosexual. They were statistically likely to be heterosexual. God didn't destroy Sodom for gay sex! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS PEOPLE. Quote: God also makes quite clear the sinfullness of the cities because even abraham goes so far as to ask, "If there are five good people in soddom and gamorrah, will you spare them," the lord replied, "If there are but five, I will postpone my wraith for their sake." We're not debating the sinfulness of the cities. We're debating whether their sinfulness has anything to do with the topic at hand. Quote: Even then, if you were born with homosexual tendencies, then tell me this, did they show up at early stages(meaning teen years)? Yes. They actually showed up around..... fourth grade, I believe. The best friend (male) of the girl my parents wanted me to meet was really really cute. ^-^ Squee! And even before then, I found toy trucks deadly boring. My parents would set some stupid "boy toy" down in front of me, and I would look at it for about five seconds before going back to my Orson Scott Card novels. A) as it says here, Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:52 pm CCubed Wrote: BEING homosexual is not a sin, and so, it is possible to be both christian and homosexual. ACTING upon homosexual desires in a physical or mental way is wrong however. So forming a lasting, loving relationship with another male is forbidden to me, even though I am incapable of having that relationship with a woman? B) Whether or not you like it, Soddom and Gamorrah was destroyed for homosexual acts. The MEN of the villiage came and asked to see Lot's MALE Guests so that they might KNOW them. They were not talking about tea and crackers. Gen.19 [1] The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, [2] and said, "My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the street." [3] But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. [4] But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; [5] and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." [6] Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, [7] and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. [8] Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." [9] But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. [10] But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. [11] And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door. [12] Then the men said to Lot, "Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place; [13] for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." [14] So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. [15] When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city." [16] But he lingered; so the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him forth and set him outside the city. [17] And when they had brought them forth, they said, "Flee for your life; do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley; flee to the hills, lest you be consumed." See, right there. Gen 19: 5-8 : and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." See where it says, "I have two daughters who have not known man," that confirms the fact that all the men wanted to know the messengers who were male. It also says, "But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house." it was all men. So where do you get heterosexual from that? They most certainly didn't break down Lot's door in order to have tea with his visitors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:36 am
CCubed See, right there. Gen 19: 5-8 : and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." See where it says, "I have two daughters who have not known man," that confirms the fact that all the men wanted to know the messengers who were male. It also says, "But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house." it was all men. So where do you get heterosexual from that? They most certainly didn't break down Lot's door in order to have tea with his visitors. Even in the case that "yada" (the Hebrew word meaning "to know") is used in a sexual sense (which it very well could be), gang rape is still significantly different from consentual homosexual sex.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:39 am
CCubed Even then, if you were born with homosexual tendencies, then tell me this, did they show up at early stages(meaning teen years)? I know this wasn't directed at me, but my earliest "sign" of being queer was when I was about five or six.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:59 am
SinfulGuillotine CCubed See, right there. Gen 19: 5-8 : and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." See where it says, "I have two daughters who have not known man," that confirms the fact that all the men wanted to know the messengers who were male. It also says, "But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house." it was all men. So where do you get heterosexual from that? They most certainly didn't break down Lot's door in order to have tea with his visitors. Even in the case that "yada" (the Hebrew word meaning "to know") is used in a sexual sense (which it very well could be), gang rape is still significantly different from consentual homosexual sex. ...Still you're missing the point, they were destroyed for homosexual acts. There are not seperate levels here, that was what they were destroyed for. Calling a fish a perch still makes it a fish, just that a Perch is a type of Fish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:04 am
CCubed SinfulGuillotine CCubed See, right there. Gen 19: 5-8 : and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." See where it says, "I have two daughters who have not known man," that confirms the fact that all the men wanted to know the messengers who were male. It also says, "But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house." it was all men. So where do you get heterosexual from that? They most certainly didn't break down Lot's door in order to have tea with his visitors. Even in the case that "yada" (the Hebrew word meaning "to know") is used in a sexual sense (which it very well could be), gang rape is still significantly different from consentual homosexual sex. ...Still you're missing the point, they were destroyed for homosexual acts. There are not seperate levels here, that was what they were destroyed for. How are they not separate? Tell me, please, how rape is even vaguely related to loving, consentual sex, regardless of the genders involved? Homosexual gang rape =/= consentual homosexual sex. Period. End of story. The two cannot even be thrown into the same bucket. I'm not so sure why that's so hard to understand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:19 am
CCubed Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori CCubed And once more we're back to Soddom and Gammorah. They were destroyed because of homosexual acts. The word "Know" in the bible when used in the form of a verb means to have sexual relations. It is used 943 times in the bible as a verb. Ten of those times it clearly refers to sex. Each of those ten times, it refers to heterosexual sex. The word for homosexual sex is "shakabh". If this were referring to sex, it would use the word shakabh. Quote: For Instance, it says Abraham "Knew" his wife and then she bore a son. IN another case, it says that the people of Soddom and Gammorah wanted to "know" the new visitors. God destroyed the cities because they were commiting all kinds of unholy acts. Homosexuality, Incest(Even after lot and his daughters left), cursing, blasphemeing, etc. Where exactly do you get incest from? Anyways, Ezekiel 16:49-50, as I have posted SO many times in the last week, clearly says what the sins of Sodom are. The bible verse I am SO sick of posting over and over again because nobody ******** reads it 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Quote: Secondly, you said before that God didn't want you to be married to a man. Never have I said that. Ever. Quote: For one, You cannot throw out stories in the bible. God made ADAM and EVE, they were the first example of a marriage, and they had children. This wasn't a mistake. If it was natural, God wouldn't have destroyed an entire city for it. God didn't intend for Adam and Eve to have sex in the first place. They were only intended to be emotional partners. Even if God HAD intended them to have sex, it would make sense for them to be a man and a woman, as statistics say this is the most common orientation - heterosexual. They were statistically likely to be heterosexual. God didn't destroy Sodom for gay sex! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS PEOPLE. Quote: God also makes quite clear the sinfullness of the cities because even abraham goes so far as to ask, "If there are five good people in soddom and gamorrah, will you spare them," the lord replied, "If there are but five, I will postpone my wraith for their sake." We're not debating the sinfulness of the cities. We're debating whether their sinfulness has anything to do with the topic at hand. Quote: Even then, if you were born with homosexual tendencies, then tell me this, did they show up at early stages(meaning teen years)? Yes. They actually showed up around..... fourth grade, I believe. The best friend (male) of the girl my parents wanted me to meet was really really cute. ^-^ Squee! And even before then, I found toy trucks deadly boring. My parents would set some stupid "boy toy" down in front of me, and I would look at it for about five seconds before going back to my Orson Scott Card novels. A) as it says here, Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:52 pm CCubed Wrote: BEING homosexual is not a sin, and so, it is possible to be both christian and homosexual. ACTING upon homosexual desires in a physical or mental way is wrong however. So forming a lasting, loving relationship with another male is forbidden to me, even though I am incapable of having that relationship with a woman? That's actually called a rhetorical statement, to which the answer is usually obvious if you look at the tone the question is delivered in. It is not a statement. In this case the answer would be "No, forming a relationship with another man is acceptable". Quote: B) Whether or not you like it, Soddom and Gamorrah was destroyed for homosexual acts. Whether you like it or not, Ezekiel 16:49-50 has great significance to this, as it LISTS the sins of Sodom. GAY SEX IS NOT MENTIONED. Quote: The MEN of the villiage came and asked to see Lot's MALE Guests so that they might KNOW them. They were not talking about tea and crackers. You're right! They were quite possibly referring to torture, as they may have thought the angels were enemy spies. Or, they were referring to gand rape. There is no possible way you could make this passage refer to consentual sex of any sort. Furthermore, the PEOPLE of the city (The original pronoun used was "enosh'im", a gender-neutral plural) approached the NON-HUMAN ANGELS disguised as men to "know" them AFTER the city was condemned. Quote: See, right there. Gen 19: 5-8 : and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." See where it says, "I have two daughters who have not known man," that confirms the fact that all the men wanted to know the messengers who were male. No, it doesn't. Whether or not the daughters were virgins does not affect whether or not the men wanted to "know" the male visitors. Quote: It also says, "But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house." it was all men. So where do you get heterosexual from that? The hebrew was enosh'im, a gender neutral pronoun. Quote: They most certainly didn't break down Lot's door in order to have tea with his visitors. Have I EVER said they did? No. At the MOST, this passage could refer to gang rape, which is wrong no matter which gender it is committed upon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
