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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:04 pm
It really irritates me when people use the experience card in a God debate.
If something is to be believed, it should be experiencable by all, yes? I mean okay, not everyone can experience the LHC's experiments, but they're at least repeatable. With the right tools, you can confirm them for yourself.
The experience card is a cop-out. "Oh, yes. I've experienced God. You want me to prove it? Oh I can't, it's something you have to experience for yourself".
Bullshit.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:09 pm
Valheita It really irritates me when people use the experience card in a God debate. If something is to be believed, it should be experiencable by all, yes? I mean okay, not everyone can experience the LHC's experiments, but they're at least repeatable. With the right tools, you can confirm them for yourself. The experience card is a cop-out. "Oh, yes. I've experienced God. You want me to prove it? Oh I can't, it's something you have to experience for yourself". Bullshit. Scientific theory does not explain the things I've experienced though and I've searched long and hard for explanations.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:14 pm
Warrax1 Scientific theory does not explain the things I've experienced though and I've searched long and hard for explanations. And that has what to do with the experience card being a cop out? At no point did I claim that scientific theory could explain everything. Though, I would like to mention that God shouldn't be the conclusion you reach just because you don't understand something. You should strive to understand it, not wave it away as God.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:29 pm
Valheita Warrax1 Scientific theory does not explain the things I've experienced though and I've searched long and hard for explanations. And that has what to do with the experience card being a cop out? At no point did I claim that scientific theory could explain everything. Though, I would like to mention that God shouldn't be the conclusion you reach just because you don't understand something. You should strive to understand it, not wave it away as God. I did'nt wave it away, there are explanations that have made sense to me and they just happen to include God. Also, much of my view is based on things I've learned on my own. Experience is not a cop-out, its just that the more you know, the better you can understand things. It does not mean one can't understand without first experiencing.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:33 pm
Including God is waving it away. You can't claim to understand things if you have to resort to the supernatural.
And in a debate, experience is a cop-out. If I can't verify something, then why should I believe you? Any debate based on irreplicable experience, has absolutely no reason to be believed. It's purely there to sucker people who don't realise that they shouldn't believe everything they're told.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:57 pm
Valheita Including God is waving it away. You can't claim to understand things if you have to resort to the supernatural. And in a debate, experience is a cop-out. If I can't verify something, then why should I believe you? Any debate based on irreplicable experience, has absolutely no reason to be believed. It's purely there to sucker people who don't realise that they shouldn't believe everything they're told. Your opinion is your own. As is mine. I'm not going to change my views based on your thought that I may have been fooled. None of what you say need be believed either, and thats by your own words. Nobody has to believe anything anyone tells them. I don't need you to tell me what I've been saying all this time. Finding information and learning, and experimenting, experiencing...those are the things I've been saying so that people do not wave things away based on someones opinion such as your own. All those points have already been made so I don't see anymore reason we should speak on it.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:10 pm
Warrax1 Valheita Including God is waving it away. You can't claim to understand things if you have to resort to the supernatural. And in a debate, experience is a cop-out. If I can't verify something, then why should I believe you? Any debate based on irreplicable experience, has absolutely no reason to be believed. It's purely there to sucker people who don't realise that they shouldn't believe everything they're told. Your opinion is your own. As is mine. I'm not going to change my views based on your thought that I may have been fooled. None of what you say need be believed either, and thats by your own words. Nobody has to believe anything anyone tells them. I don't need you to tell me what I've been saying all this time. Finding information and learning, and experimenting, experiencing...those are the things I've been saying so that people do not wave things away based on someones opinion such as your own. All those points have already been made so I don't see anymore reason we should speak on it. Uh...Warrax, there's a difference between fact and opinion you know. ninja
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:12 pm
Warrax1 Valheita Including God is waving it away. You can't claim to understand things if you have to resort to the supernatural. And in a debate, experience is a cop-out. If I can't verify something, then why should I believe you? Any debate based on irreplicable experience, has absolutely no reason to be believed. It's purely there to sucker people who don't realise that they shouldn't believe everything they're told. Your opinion is your own. As is mine. I'm not going to change my views based on your thought that I may have been fooled. None of what you say need be believed either, and thats by your own words. Nobody has to believe anything anyone tells them. I don't need you to tell me what I've been saying all this time. Finding information and learning, and experimenting, experiencing...those are the things I've been saying so that people do not wave things away based on someones opinion such as your own. All those points have already been made so I don't see anymore reason we should speak on it. See, that's the difference between science and religion. You won't change your views whether you're right or wrong. Me? Give me a good reason, I'll change my views at the drop of a hat. It's all about the evidence, if someone can prove I'm wrong, I don't want to continue being wrong.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:22 pm
Pirate Captain Sushi Uh...Warrax, there's a difference between fact and opinion you know. ninja Of course there is, but the lines are confused these days. For example, evolution has come to be accepted as fact over large parts of the world even though it is only a theory. Valheita See, that's the difference between science and religion. You won't change your views whether you're right or wrong. Never once did I say my views are based solely on religion or science. Both are important and so both have their uses in explaining things. I think you're confusing me with yourself. The evidence that I have found is irrefutable to me so far and that is why I won't be changing my mind anytime soon. None of the arguments here have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am wrong in my beliefs. If there were such evidence as you claim, then we would not have had this discussion.
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Warrax1 Valheita See, that's the difference between science and religion. You won't change your views whether you're right or wrong. Never once did I say my views are based solely on religion or science. Both are important and so both have their uses in explaining things. I think you're confusing me with yourself. The evidence that I have found is irrefutable to me so far and that is why I won't be changing my mind anytime soon. None of the arguments here have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am wrong in my beliefs. If there were such evidence as you claim, then we would not have had this discussion. Would you prefer I said it was the difference between me and you then, rather than science and religion? Additionally, I fear you have misunderstood my arguments. I was not trying to prove your beliefs wrong at any point. I was merely stating why I felt that some of your reasonings were inappropriate in a debate.
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:09 am
Warrax1 Of course there is, but the lines are confused these days. For example, evolution has come to be accepted as fact over large parts of the world even though it is only a theory. The scientific definition of a theory is "a hypothesis that has been thoroughly tested with favorable results, and has been accepted by the scientific community." Evolution is no different. It has been studied, researched, and experimented with for centuries, and the results we've noticed and recorded all support the theory. Also, you're probably just going to argue that "our idea of a 'fact' is merely our own opinion." Quote: Never once did I say my views are based solely on religion or science. Both are important and so both have their uses in explaining things. I think you're confusing me with yourself. The evidence that I have found is irrefutable to me so far and that is why I won't be changing my mind anytime soon. None of the arguments here have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am wrong in my beliefs. If there were such evidence as you claim, then we would not have had this discussion. Sounds to me like you're simply unwilling to listen to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs, waving them off as "people who lack experience that proves to them the undeniable existence of God." And you still haven't presented this so-called "irrefutable evidence." Whether or not it's something that can only be understood when experienced firsthand, it's currently not serving any purpose aside from making you look like you're BSing.
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:09 am
Valheita Would you prefer I said it was the difference between me and you then, rather than science and religion? Additionally, I fear you have misunderstood my arguments. I was not trying to prove your beliefs wrong at any point. I was merely stating why I felt that some of your reasonings were inappropriate in a debate. Perhaps, but there is little difference between me and you. The only difference is possibly that I'm sure of what I believe in because of the proof I've found. However, you may believe strongly in something of your own. In which case the difference is only in the conclusions we've reached. Mayhap my reasonings were innapropriate for such a debate, but I was just giving my opinion. I said as much to RiRi and that I may have gone about it the wrong way. Even now I still search for more proof, and so far I have kept finding it and my belief is bolstered with each piece of evidence I find. To say it in another way, I don't want someone to prove the existence or non-existence of God to me. I feel it better if we get as much knowledge as possible and come to our own conclusions, however, if the answers we look for are to be found with either science or religion, or philosophy or simple fact...then we should take the reasonings of all of those and still come up with our own answer. That would be based on what knowledge we have, our lives are fairly long and so there is enough time for us to each reach an answer which satisfies us.
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:10 am
@ Foam-Dome
Your reasoning is going in circles. All the points you're trying to make, there has already been a reply to. I suggest you go back and read everything that was said in this thread and not just by myself, RiRi has made many valid points and concessions to my own views. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. It makes no difference to me whether you believe in the existence of God or not. Pursue answers on your own. That was my point. I simply gave my opinion and reasoning for why I believe God exists as well. Whether you like it or not, or if you call me thick-headed, you can't change my view with mockery or a thin string of logic. Prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt if you want me to believe you. Show me exactly how the universe was made, the purpose of man, the meaning of sentience, why life exists. Answer me those things with science alone as that is what you base all your answers on. I don't want a theory which is full of holes either. If there is even a shred of doubt then I will stick to my view, as to me I have found enough proof for myself. I'm quite open to reasoning, but I keep hearing the same argument and I've already found answers and counter-answers which have proven to me that my own belief is not innacurate. To say it bluntly, if rather childishly, I have my proof, and it is not yours. Get your own.
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:37 am
*...facepalm*
Yep, I can definitely tell that you're BSing.
To be honest, right now you're sounding less like the witty, confident person you're envisioning yourself to be and more like someone who has been pantsed attempting to convince clothed people that they are the ones who should feel foolish.
My reasoning's not going in circles. You just keep dismissing all of my points without actually invalidating or countering them as soon as I bring them up.
"Whether you like it or not, or if you call me thick-headed, you can't change my view with mockery or a thin string of logic. Prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt if you want me to believe you. Show me exactly how the universe was made, the purpose of man, the meaning of sentience, why life exists."
...You do realize that everything you just said also applies to your own argument, right? I haven't heard any explanations from you, either. Something doesn't have to have meaning in order to exist. Life exists because the raw materials and elemental forces on Earth resulted in the creation of primitive amino acids, which evolved into life. I hope you're aware that a "thin string of logic" holds more water than absolutely no logic at all. What's your definition of "logic," anyway? My ENTIRE ARGUMENT is solely based on logic. It's why I'm an ATHEIST. The very concept of God is illogical. Unless, of course, you intend to make me believe that your "proof" is so amazing and infallible that it invalidates the decades of research and theorizing performed by Dr. Stephen Hawking. And since he's the most renowned astrophysicist in the world while you're, uh, not, I think he knows what he's talking about.
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