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 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:31 am
Deidra Diamonds The questions I am trying to ask are: can we possibly see ourselves as so damaged or unworthy (false inmages of ourselves) that we have erected unseen barriers in our life, that seperate us (atleast in part) from receiving the absolute fullness of God's love, and experiencing everything that He has and wants for us? And can these barriers cause us such insecurity, or doubt in ourselves and our abilities, that we are unable to operate in our gifts to the fullest, or minister to others as we should?
...
Rationally all of us know that we are unworthy except for the Blood of Jesus. But some people believe (self deception, self worth, whatever you want to call it) that there are areas of their lives that are so vile that they cant even bring them to the cross, let alone be forgiven of them. Others cannot believe that God could love them...after all no one else ever has.
I'm trying to ask if we as Christians can still have those areas of "self-deception" hidden away (maybe even from ourselves) that prevent us from walking in the fullness of God and His Spirit.
Intellectually we all say we don't have those areas (areas we are holding back from God) but is it possible that we are lying to ourselves (thus a false self-image)? I think absolutely it's possible we lie to ourselves that way. In fact, I am inclined to believe every one of us does it, probably countless times throughout our lives. Christian or not, if someone ever said to me, "I know myself 100% inside and out and don't lie to myself at all about anything," I would think they need a little more insight. xp No one has it together completely. (Yes, my faith in human understanding is astounding!) In other words, I think telling ourselves that we don't (as you mentioned at the end there) is itself a lie to make our own lives more comfortable.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:54 am
Tryan Deidra Diamonds The questions I am trying to ask are: can we possibly see ourselves as so damaged or unworthy (false inmages of ourselves) that we have erected unseen barriers in our life, that seperate us (atleast in part) from receiving the absolute fullness of God's love, and experiencing everything that He has and wants for us? And can these barriers cause us such insecurity, or doubt in ourselves and our abilities, that we are unable to operate in our gifts to the fullest, or minister to others as we should?
...
Rationally all of us know that we are unworthy except for the Blood of Jesus. But some people believe (self deception, self worth, whatever you want to call it) that there are areas of their lives that are so vile that they cant even bring them to the cross, let alone be forgiven of them. Others cannot believe that God could love them...after all no one else ever has.
I'm trying to ask if we as Christians can still have those areas of "self-deception" hidden away (maybe even from ourselves) that prevent us from walking in the fullness of God and His Spirit.
Intellectually we all say we don't have those areas (areas we are holding back from God) but is it possible that we are lying to ourselves (thus a false self-image)? I think absolutely it's possible we lie to ourselves that way. In fact, I am inclined to believe every one of us does it, probably countless times throughout our lives. Christian or not, if someone ever said to me, "I know myself 100% inside and out and don't lie to myself at all about anything," I would think they need a little more insight. xp No one has it together completely. (Yes, my faith in human understanding is astounding!) In other words, I think telling ourselves that we don't (as you mentioned at the end there) is itself a lie to make our own lives more comfortable.
I think your statement about us knowing ourselves is well put. None of us has it all together or knows ourselves as well as God does and we deceive ourselves if we think otherwise.
However on your statement about "lying to ourselves countless times throughout our lives".....I will take it much further. I think we lie to ourselves countless times in the course of a day!
Anyone know how?
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:14 am
I am surprised it worked - my fish probably are all dead. o.O
Back to the matter at hand - I could disagree on a mere technicality. That being that there are 87300 seconds in the day, which 1) is a countable number, and 2) I don't think we lie to ourselves that much necessarily (assuming we are talking about particular incidences). Then again, depends on how you look at it- if by believing a particular lie as a matter of course means a constant, non-stop lie, then, yeah, I guess I'd agree with you.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:25 am
Tryan I could disagree on a mere technicality. That being that there are 87300 seconds in the day, which 1) is a countable number ... *Falls over laughing.* I knew there was a reason I got along with you! But it's 86400. Yes, Deidra, I know, I just blew the challenge again. gonk
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:26 am
Tryan I am surprised it worked - my fish probably are all dead. o.O Back to the matter at hand - I could disagree on a mere technicality. That being that there are 87300 seconds in the day, which 1) is a countable number, and 2) I don't think we lie to ourselves that much necessarily (assuming we are talking about particular incidences). Then again, depends on how you look at it- if by believing a particular lie as a matter of course means a constant, non-stop lie, then, yeah, I guess I'd agree with you.
Ok since you two don't seem to have a clue I will give them to you. I think both are pretty sobering. Now remember that these are not my words or my opinions.
If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.
(hmmmm......critical words, calling someone a fool, idiot or other name(good thing I'm not driving today smile cussing, verbal judgements, false vows.....need I go on? Notice it does not say anything about us telling lies
And this one which really blew my socks off when I considered the possible weight of it's meaning...
James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(I fell just on "pray without ceasing" without going into any of the other things we are supposed to be doing.) How'd you guys do?
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:56 am
Deidra Diamonds If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. I'd like a source for that one, please. And ... while yes, it's kinda sobering, it's not any moreso than "There is no one righteous". Quote: (hmmmm......critical words, calling someone a fool, idiot or other name(good thing I'm not driving today smile cussing, verbal judgements, false vows.....need I go on? Notice it does not say anything about us telling lies How about criticizing someone's vocabulary when the vocabulary in question is a total lack of vocabulary? Every time a meaningless word like "thingie" pops from Meadow's mouth, I have to try to encourage her to use real English, just so I'll know what the blazes she's talking about ... and this requires criticizing what "words" (and I use that term loosely) she does use. Understand that this happens several times a day. Am I to understand that, the way you are interpreting scripture, that I'm to be judged based on my inability to understand someone (born in America to Anglo parents, theoretically taught English growing up) who's speaking no language I recognize? Or perhaps this ... she calls me to come fix her printer. She's been arguing with it for ... about ten seconds, because she has no patience. It won't print. I plug it in, stare at her for several seconds, then walk out muttering "dingbat". Okay, sure, you can say "dingbat" is a synonym for "fool", and Jesus had a few things to say about people using that phrase. This, I'll not dispute. In my defense ... well, look at what she did! She didn't even try to solve it herself, nor did she test the most obvious problem ... after me telling her repeatedly to check that first. I'm to be judged for this? I, the one you claim is supposed to be a great teacher, is going to be judged for trying to teach -- and being disappointed in failures? Quote: And this one which really blew my socks off when I considered the possible weight of it's meaning... James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (I fell just on "pray without ceasing" without going into any of the other things we are supposed to be doing.) How'd you guys do? Well, I found the reference to the passage at the top. Fact is, I found the second part of what passage. The "religion" God likes is to help widows and orphans, and keep yourself from being polluted. And as for how I did, well ... I fail, but I keep trying.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:26 am
Dragonbait Deidra Diamonds If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. I'd like a source for that one, please. And ... while yes, it's kinda sobering, it's not any moreso than "There is no one righteous". Quote: (hmmmm......critical words, calling someone a fool, idiot or other name(good thing I'm not driving today smile cussing, verbal judgements, false vows.....need I go on? Notice it does not say anything about us telling lies How about criticizing someone's vocabulary when the vocabulary in question is a total lack of vocabulary? Every time a meaningless word like "thingie" pops from Meadow's mouth, I have to try to encourage her to use real English, just so I'll know what the blazes she's talking about ... and this requires criticizing what "words" (and I use that term loosely) she does use. Understand that this happens several times a day. Am I to understand that, the way you are interpreting scripture, that I'm to be judged based on my inability to understand someone (born in America to Anglo parents, theoretically taught English growing up) who's speaking no language I recognize? Or perhaps this ... she calls me to come fix her printer. She's been arguing with it for ... about ten seconds, because she has no patience. It won't print. I plug it in, stare at her for several seconds, then walk out muttering "dingbat". Okay, sure, you can say "dingbat" is a synonym for "fool", and Jesus had a few things to say about people using that phrase. This, I'll not dispute. In my defense ... well, look at what she did! She didn't even try to solve it herself, nor did she test the most obvious problem ... after me telling her repeatedly to check that first. I'm to be judged for this? I, the one you claim is supposed to be a great teacher, is going to be judged for trying to teach -- and being disappointed in failures? Quote: And this one which really blew my socks off when I considered the possible weight of it's meaning... James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (I fell just on "pray without ceasing" without going into any of the other things we are supposed to be doing.) How'd you guys do? Well, I found the reference to the passage at the top. Fact is, I found the second part of what passage. The "religion" God likes is to help widows and orphans, and keep yourself from being polluted. And as for how I did, well ... I fail, but I keep trying.
Did you drive to work today? Wear your seatbelt, use your turn signal? Did you go the speed limit? (My husband likes to justify this one "but I'm staying up with traffic")
"Rom13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities."
Oops...it just occured to me that I blew it again...Love does not point out anothers faults...sorry God...sorry hubby.
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only
Do we really understand what lying evil hearts we have? And how much mercy God has shown us?
If we repented of everything we did wrong in a day (as we are supposed to do) we would be on our knees ALL day just about the James 1:22 Scripture. sad
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:44 pm
stare I was bein' serious. stare
Yes, I drove to work. Yes, I wore my seatbelt, used my turn signal, followed the speed limit ... was five minutes late, but did all this anyway ... though I tend to think of those worldly laws as beneath Christ's dignity, I follow them anyway, due to the verse you quoted.
And if "love does not point out another's faults", how come you're so intent on ours? (That's not a rhetorical question, nor is it a joke. I'd honestly like to know.)
We know. We're sinners. We're lower than the scum at the bottom of the Okeefenokee. There's not a single thing we can ever do that doesn't have some sinful selfishness behind it someplace. We get it.
As for staying on topic ... which topic? Half the time, it's "hey, you're better than you think you are, so stop pretending you're not", and half the time it's "do you realize how terrible you are?" I beg you, pick one.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:13 pm
Dragonbait stare I was bein' serious. stare Yes, I drove to work. Yes, I wore my seatbelt, used my turn signal, followed the speed limit ... was five minutes late, but did all this anyway ... though I tend to think of those worldly laws as beneath Christ's dignity, I follow them anyway, due to the verse you quoted. And if "love does not point out another's faults", how come you're so intent on ours? (That's not a rhetorical question, nor is it a joke. I'd honestly like to know.) oooh do you really mean that ?? I didn't know I pointed out anyone's fault. I used you in one example...but hey you used me too. Please accept my most humble apologies.I am working through this just as you are and trust me I have discovered many areas I fall short.This wasn't meant to point out anyone's faults. It was meant for each of us to soul search .We know. We're sinners. We're lower than the scum at the bottom of the Okeefenokee. There's not a single thing we can ever do that doesn't have some sinful selfishness behind it someplace. We get it. As for staying on topic ... which topic? Half the time, it's "hey, you're better than you think you are, so stop pretending you're not", and half the time it's "do you realize how terrible you are?" I beg you, pick one. the topic sure wasn't how many seconds in a day. I am going to ask one more question concerning lying and "fudging the truth" because it applies to me, and then you can do what you want with this thread. I received a phone call over the weekend. This person had just found out her brother had committed suicide and was terribly distraught. She wanted to know if her brother was going to heaven or to hell. She is fragile both physically and mentally. Would you tell her the bold honest truth or would you try to candy coat it in someway?
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:29 pm
... Frankly, I'd need more information about the brother's spiritual circumstances. I mean, I know the Catholics call suicide a "mortal sin" ... but I don't consider it such. So I couldn't even guess at the brother's address in the afterlife; I mean, we've precious little to go on here.
Knowing me, I'd try to redirect it. I mean, I'm just making this up; I don't know the circumstances involved, don't know her precise personality and whatnot, but something to the effect of ... "where he is, you no longer need worry about him. You need to worry about yourself. Your concern for him is admirable ... but no longer needed. God has decided the best place for your brother, now look to making sure of your own destiny."
But again, I say this without knowing the people involved. And I am curious about how you handled it. Not because I'm trying to single you out or anything, but because I'm genuinely curious.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:32 pm
Dragonbait ... Frankly, I'd need more information about the brother's spiritual circumstances. I mean, I know the Catholics call suicide a "mortal sin" ... but I don't consider it such. So I couldn't even guess at the brother's address in the afterlife; I mean, we've precious little to go on here. Knowing me, I'd try to redirect it. I mean, I'm just making this up; I don't know the circumstances involved, don't know her precise personality and whatnot, but something to the effect of ... "where he is, you no longer need worry about him. You need to worry about yourself. Your concern for him is admirable ... but no longer needed. God has decided the best place for your brother, now look to making sure of your own destiny." But again, I say this without knowing the people involved. And I am curious about how you handled it. Not because I'm trying to single you out or anything, but because I'm genuinely curious.
She called back the next night and talked to my husband...her question now was "What if it was an accident?" The kid (to me anyway-he was 31 I think she said) wrapped a leather dog leash around his neck and jumped off a dresser. Hubby handled it much the same way as I did.
In either case I don't think we brought her much comfort or she wouldn't have still been searching for a way to get us to say "Oh sure he is in heaven with Jesus".
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:46 pm
Sounds like you handled it the best way. The only thing I might point out is that crazy people um, people acting more from emotion than logic, sometimes aren't fully responsible for their actions. At least, that's in the eyes of human law; I'm not sure how God would handle it.
But yeah, it doesn't sound like it brought her much comfort. Then again, you describe her as fragile, mentally; it's possible that she was simply forgetting, or looking for something, anything, to discuss. It sounds stupid, but I've known it to happen; some people actually hunt down things to worry over.
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