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 Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:36 pm
kage no neko Vixen: You can't at all accurately compare Wicca and Christianity. They function so completely differently, it's not a matter of "oh, I just don't like you / believe what you do". Wicca is Gardner's religion. He set the rules down to say that you have to do this, or else you're not practicing his religion. It's like if I take my beliefs and establish my path with my own rules and call it "Potatoes of Doom" and make one of the rules to be a Potato that you have to always keep a potato in your left pocket. It's my religion, I can make it as silly as I want! You don't want to stuff a potato into your pocket every day? Then don't, but you can't be a Potato. Why? 'cause it's mine, I said so. With Wicca, Gardner established it, said that you have to follow the core.. You change that, do anything that's different from the rules he set down, you're not practicing Wicca. Like with my potato reference, it's a matter of what you do, not what you believe. It's great, you can believe in the lord and lady all you like, you can pray to them and everything (though it very well may not be the lord and lady of the isles, like Wiccans follow), but you won't be practicing Gardner's religion. Establish you own religion, instead of calling it the Potatoes of Doom, call it the Lettuces of Doom. Christianity, from how I see it, is more of what you believe. You believe in Christ, you're good. Then you just gotta figure out the specifics of beliefs, since not everyone seems to be believe in the same parts of the bible.. I don't really understand it. I don't think I've ever understood it. But I guess that's part of why I'm not Christian, I've no real interest in trying to understand it. But with Wicca, I guess your comparisons between Methodist and whatever would be like Wicca's Gardnerian and Alexandrian traditions. They stick to the core, the same practices, just different... something that I don't really know what. Neo-Wiccans fail to follow the core, are not initiated into Gardner's Wicca (one of his requirements he set down), and therefore are not Wiccan. Tsukiyo: How did he break his oaths? It is the same thing. You can't copywrite a word, let alone such a generic term as "Wicca" used to describe a religion.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:45 am
xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox The thing about Buckland is that he's an oathbreaker. In other words he broke the oaths he made to the Lord ad Lady and spewed everything about Wicca. That's actually not true. Buckland had a deep respect for Garder and his Wicca and never broke his oath. Instead he created his own form of witchcraft to distance himself from Gardner's Wicca since he was disappointed on how it turned out. I hold deep respect for Buckland, since I am a budding Seax. Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task?
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:17 am
KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox The thing about Buckland is that he's an oathbreaker. In other words he broke the oaths he made to the Lord ad Lady and spewed everything about Wicca. That's actually not true. Buckland had a deep respect for Garder and his Wicca and never broke his oath. Instead he created his own form of witchcraft to distance himself from Gardner's Wicca since he was disappointed on how it turned out. I hold deep respect for Buckland, since I am a budding Seax. Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task? To be experinced you have to be an initiate and know the mysteries. Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated. For being a 1* initate again you have some of the inner workings down, and even outer court rituals however you don't have neccessary experience to even tell people what goes on. In other words, you have to be a 3* or 3rd degree. A HP or HPS for that to even happen. For a 1* to try and create a coven and "shed light" on Wicca, and the Lord and Lady is considered breaking your oaths. According to the laws, you're to keep such info secret as Wicca is bound by oath.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:22 am
entervixen kage no neko Vixen: You can't at all accurately compare Wicca and Christianity. They function so completely differently, it's not a matter of "oh, I just don't like you / believe what you do". Wicca is Gardner's religion. He set the rules down to say that you have to do this, or else you're not practicing his religion. It's like if I take my beliefs and establish my path with my own rules and call it "Potatoes of Doom" and make one of the rules to be a Potato that you have to always keep a potato in your left pocket. It's my religion, I can make it as silly as I want! You don't want to stuff a potato into your pocket every day? Then don't, but you can't be a Potato. Why? 'cause it's mine, I said so. With Wicca, Gardner established it, said that you have to follow the core.. You change that, do anything that's different from the rules he set down, you're not practicing Wicca. Like with my potato reference, it's a matter of what you do, not what you believe. It's great, you can believe in the lord and lady all you like, you can pray to them and everything (though it very well may not be the lord and lady of the isles, like Wiccans follow), but you won't be practicing Gardner's religion. Establish you own religion, instead of calling it the Potatoes of Doom, call it the Lettuces of Doom. Christianity, from how I see it, is more of what you believe. You believe in Christ, you're good. Then you just gotta figure out the specifics of beliefs, since not everyone seems to be believe in the same parts of the bible.. I don't really understand it. I don't think I've ever understood it. But I guess that's part of why I'm not Christian, I've no real interest in trying to understand it. But with Wicca, I guess your comparisons between Methodist and whatever would be like Wicca's Gardnerian and Alexandrian traditions. They stick to the core, the same practices, just different... something that I don't really know what. Neo-Wiccans fail to follow the core, are not initiated into Gardner's Wicca (one of his requirements he set down), and therefore are not Wiccan. Tsukiyo: How did he break his oaths? It is the same thing. You can't copywrite a word, let alone such a generic term as "Wicca" used to describe a religion. What Kage is saying is that Wicca is an orthopraxy wheres as Christianity is an orthodoxy. In other words Wicca is more of a right practice than a belief. Whereas Christianity is right belief. To be Christian you have to believe in YHVH and Yeshua. To be Wiccan you have to be initated and practice the rituals. That is the core of Wicca. Wicca is a specific term not a generic one. Pagan however is a generic term encompassing one who is not Christian, Muslim, or Jew. Wicca refers to a group of people who are initated oathbound, are ditheistic, perform rituals, and are in a coven. All Wiccans are Witches but not all witches are Wiccan. All Wiccans are Pagan but not all Pagans are Wiccans.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:42 am
xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox The thing about Buckland is that he's an oathbreaker. In other words he broke the oaths he made to the Lord ad Lady and spewed everything about Wicca. That's actually not true. Buckland had a deep respect for Garder and his Wicca and never broke his oath. Instead he created his own form of witchcraft to distance himself from Gardner's Wicca since he was disappointed on how it turned out. I hold deep respect for Buckland, since I am a budding Seax. Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task? To be experinced you have to be an initiate and know the mysteries. Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated. For being a 1* initate again you have some of the inner workings down, and even outer court rituals however you don't have neccessary experience to even tell people what goes on. In other words, you have to be a 3* or 3rd degree. A HP or HPS for that to even happen. For a 1* to try and create a coven and "shed light" on Wicca, and the Lord and Lady is considered breaking your oaths. According to the laws, you're to keep such info secret as Wicca is bound by oath. maybe im half asleep and missing something. I just can't understand why Gardner wanted Buckland to bring Wicca to the united states if he wasn't the right degree. also you're confusing me just a bit, you just said "Buckland left after he was initated." and then you said "Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated." I don't get it. and please don't add personal attacks. the last person who attacked me personally I booted from the guild. remember this is a debate over a topic, not a debate over what someone believes being right or wrong. "nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do." I took that with high offense, since the path Buckland started, is my choice. Even though I fail to see how he was an oathbreaker. I also want to know where you get your info. everything I know has been from books written by Buckland. sure his writing is biased, but since Gardner's not around I fail to see better source.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:04 pm
i know that it's a bit inaccurate, since christianity and wicca don't operate the same way, but i'm making an analogy.
(i think it was) in the early 1900's, christianity became divided again between fundamentalists and everyone else. they divided over the issue of whether or not evolution should be taught in public schools.
fundamentalists believed that everything written in the bible was verbatim, word-for-word, factual accounts of what happened. everyone else believed that the bible was open for interpretation and not solid, undebateable, truth.
dunno if that helps anyone.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:04 pm
entervixen It is the same thing. You can't copywrite a word, let alone such a generic term as "Wicca" used to describe a religion. It's not the same thing. You actually CAN copywrite a word. Plenty of people have done so. Just gotta be willing to enforce it. ninja And "Wicca" isn't just a word used to describe a religion. It's the name of Gardner's religion. It's not just a description. The description would be something like "a fertility witchcult that honors the Lord and Lady of the Isles".
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:52 pm
KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox The thing about Buckland is that he's an oathbreaker. In other words he broke the oaths he made to the Lord ad Lady and spewed everything about Wicca. That's actually not true. Buckland had a deep respect for Garder and his Wicca and never broke his oath. Instead he created his own form of witchcraft to distance himself from Gardner's Wicca since he was disappointed on how it turned out. I hold deep respect for Buckland, since I am a budding Seax. Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task? To be experinced you have to be an initiate and know the mysteries. Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated. For being a 1* initate again you have some of the inner workings down, and even outer court rituals however you don't have neccessary experience to even tell people what goes on. In other words, you have to be a 3* or 3rd degree. A HP or HPS for that to even happen. For a 1* to try and create a coven and "shed light" on Wicca, and the Lord and Lady is considered breaking your oaths. According to the laws, you're to keep such info secret as Wicca is bound by oath. maybe im half asleep and missing something. I just can't understand why Gardner wanted Buckland to bring Wicca to the united states if he wasn't the right degree. also you're confusing me just a bit, you just said "Buckland left after he was initated." and then you said "Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated." I don't get it. and please don't add personal attacks. the last person who attacked me personally I booted from the guild. remember this is a debate over a topic, not a debate over what someone believes being right or wrong. "nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do." I took that with high offense, since the path Buckland started, is my choice. Even though I fail to see how he was an oathbreaker. I also want to know where you get your info. everything I know has been from books written by Buckland. sure his writing is biased, but since Gardner's not around I fail to see better source. 10 days after=right after. It's the same meaning. Bottom line is he isn't a 3rd degree nor does he have the right to even write things. Being an oathbreaker means that you spew, write about what actually goes on in the Inner Court. This includes the actual deities of Wicca. Everything in the Inner Court is bound by oath. Buckland broke his oaths and sold out to Llwedeyn. What I said was not an attack but advice. I suppose I will refrain from giving people advice since you find it so offensive. rolleyes My information on Buckland comes from lineaged Wiccans from both Gardenian and Alexandrian traditions. Many trad Wiccans believe he is an oathbreaker and is info should not be trusted. Rziu, the split of the Church occured in 1517. This is where Martin Luther declared the Protestant Reformation due to being against much of the Churches actions. He felt that the Church was greedy and wanted to stop this. I don't know where you got 1900's from.. The split happened at least 1,000 years after Christ's death (500 years maybe). The so called split in Wicca occured because of money hungry individuals such as Silver Ravenwolf, Llwedyn, DJ Conway etc, publishing inaccurate, incorrect information in the hopes of being known. Again another big key difference.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:57 pm
xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task? To be experinced you have to be an initiate and know the mysteries. Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated. For being a 1* initate again you have some of the inner workings down, and even outer court rituals however you don't have neccessary experience to even tell people what goes on. In other words, you have to be a 3* or 3rd degree. A HP or HPS for that to even happen. For a 1* to try and create a coven and "shed light" on Wicca, and the Lord and Lady is considered breaking your oaths. According to the laws, you're to keep such info secret as Wicca is bound by oath. maybe im half asleep and missing something. I just can't understand why Gardner wanted Buckland to bring Wicca to the united states if he wasn't the right degree. also you're confusing me just a bit, you just said "Buckland left after he was initated." and then you said "Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated." I don't get it. and please don't add personal attacks. the last person who attacked me personally I booted from the guild. remember this is a debate over a topic, not a debate over what someone believes being right or wrong. "nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do." I took that with high offense, since the path Buckland started, is my choice. Even though I fail to see how he was an oathbreaker. I also want to know where you get your info. everything I know has been from books written by Buckland. sure his writing is biased, but since Gardner's not around I fail to see better source. 10 days after=right after. It's the same meaning. Bottom line is he isn't a 3rd degree nor does he have the right to even write things. Being an oathbreaker means that you spew, write about what actually goes on in the Inner Court. This includes the actual deities of Wicca. Everything in the Inner Court is bound by oath. Buckland broke his oaths and sold out to Llwedeyn. What I said was not an attack but advice. I suppose I will refrain from giving people advice since you find it so offensive. rolleyes My information on Buckland comes from lineaged Wiccans from both Gardenian and Alexandrian traditions. Many trad Wiccans believe he is an oathbreaker and is info should not be trusted. Rziu, the split of the Church occured in 1517. This is where Martin Luther declared the Protestant Reformation due to being against much of the Churches actions. He felt that the Church was greedy and wanted to stop this. I don't know where you got 1900's from.. The split happened at least 1,000 years after Christ's death (500 years maybe). The so called split in Wicca occured because of money hungry individuals such as Silver Ravenwolf, Llwedyn, DJ Conway etc, publishing inaccurate, incorrect information in the hopes of being known. Again another big key difference. I would like to point out that I did not post any dates whatsoever. So please refrain from crediting me with something I did not say.
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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:00 pm
xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox KasaChan xLady Tsukiyox Buckland left after he was initated. He wasn't a 3rd degreed Wiccan but a first degree. What he had with him were the bare essentials not experience on what Wicca truly is. Wicca is an experiental, mystery witch cult. To be a Wiccan you have to experience the mysteries, and that you're not going to get out of a book. Breaking away from Gardner is how he became labeled as a Warlock which means oathbreaker. Being an oathbreaker is not something you want to be. nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do. but Buckland was hand picked by Gardner to spread Wicca to the U.S. wouldn't that have made him experienced. Buckland and his wife were raised to the proper degrees in order to be able to start the U.S. line of Wiccan covens. Buckland of course was well experienced, practicing Wicca from the early 60's until the early 70's. I think that a good enough time to know more than just the bare essenstials (especially if you started Wicca in the U.S.) If he didn't why would Gardner have trusted him with such a tremendous task? To be experinced you have to be an initiate and know the mysteries. Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated. For being a 1* initate again you have some of the inner workings down, and even outer court rituals however you don't have neccessary experience to even tell people what goes on. In other words, you have to be a 3* or 3rd degree. A HP or HPS for that to even happen. For a 1* to try and create a coven and "shed light" on Wicca, and the Lord and Lady is considered breaking your oaths. According to the laws, you're to keep such info secret as Wicca is bound by oath. maybe im half asleep and missing something. I just can't understand why Gardner wanted Buckland to bring Wicca to the united states if he wasn't the right degree. also you're confusing me just a bit, you just said "Buckland left after he was initated." and then you said "Buckland broke off at least 10 days prior to being initated." I don't get it. and please don't add personal attacks. the last person who attacked me personally I booted from the guild. remember this is a debate over a topic, not a debate over what someone believes being right or wrong. "nor is following an oathbreaker something you want to do." I took that with high offense, since the path Buckland started, is my choice. Even though I fail to see how he was an oathbreaker. I also want to know where you get your info. everything I know has been from books written by Buckland. sure his writing is biased, but since Gardner's not around I fail to see better source. 10 days after=right after. It's the same meaning. Bottom line is he isn't a 3rd degree nor does he have the right to even write things. Being an oathbreaker means that you spew, write about what actually goes on in the Inner Court. This includes the actual deities of Wicca. Everything in the Inner Court is bound by oath. Buckland broke his oaths and sold out to Llwedeyn. What I said was not an attack but advice. I suppose I will refrain from giving people advice since you find it so offensive. rolleyes My information on Buckland comes from lineaged Wiccans from both Gardenian and Alexandrian traditions. Many trad Wiccans believe he is an oathbreaker and is info should not be trusted. Rziu, the split of the Church occured in 1517. This is where Martin Luther declared the Protestant Reformation due to being against much of the Churches actions. He felt that the Church was greedy and wanted to stop this. I don't know where you got 1900's from.. The split happened at least 1,000 years after Christ's death (500 years maybe). The so called split in Wicca occured because of money hungry individuals such as Silver Ravenwolf, Llwedyn, DJ Conway etc, publishing inaccurate, incorrect information in the hopes of being known. Again another big key difference. you said prior. from dictionary.com Prior means –adjective 1. preceding in time or in order; earlier or former; previous: A prior agreement prevents me from accepting this. 2. preceding in importance or privilege. –noun 3. Informal. a prior conviction. —Idiom4. prior to, preceding; before: Prior to that time, buffalo had roamed the Great Plains in tremendous numbers. Origin: 1705–15; < L: former, elder, superior (adj.), before (adv.); akin to prime, pre- Related forms: pri⋅or⋅ly, adverb Synonyms: 1. anterior, antecedent.
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:24 pm
Rziu, the split of the Church occured in 1517. This is where Martin Luther declared the Protestant Reformation due to being against much of the Churches actions. He felt that the Church was greedy and wanted to stop this. I don't know where you got 1900's from.. The split happened at least 1,000 years after Christ's death (500 years maybe).
first, if you google search "fundamentalists america 1900's", you'll come across a magical name..."the scopes monkey trial". follow a couple links, and you can eventually find out that the scopes trial was a court battle between a biology teacher that taught evolution in his classroom, and a group of christians called fundamentalists that believed the bible was god-spoken truth (pardon the pun). it erupted into a nation-wide shouting match between fundamentalists and every representatives of virtually every american branch of christianity. this was possible because it was broadcast over the radio, which meant that anyone could sit and listen to william jennings bryan get his backside handed to him publically. THAT is what i was referring to. i apologize for the earlier lack of context, but here ya go.
In 1925 John Thomas Scopes, a biology teacher in Dayton, Tennessee, was arrested for violating an act of the state legislature which prohibited the teaching of evolution in schools. The American Civil Liberties Union decided to take up the case and America's most famous criminal lawyer,Clarence Darrow, offered to defend Scopes without a fee.
Leading the prosecution was A. T. Stewart, the District Attorney and the former presidential candidate, William Jennings Bryan. Bryan, who believed the literal interpretation of the Bible, had been asked by the World Christian Fundamental Association to take part in what became known as the Monkey Trial.
The trial began in Drayton on 11th July, 1925. Over 100 journalists arrived in the town to report on the trial. The Chicago Tribune installed its own radio transmitter and it became the first trial in American history to be broadcast to the nation.
Three schoolboys testified that they had been present when Scopes had taught evolution in their school. When the judge, John T. Raulston, refused to allow scientists to testify on the truth of evolution, Clarence Darrow called William Jennings Bryan to the witness stand. This became the highlight of the 11 day trial and many independent observers believed that Darrow successfully exposed the flaws in Bryan's arguments during the cross-examination. However, Bryan was considered to be the nations leading orator and was expected to shine during his summing up of the prosecution's case. In order the avoid this happening, Darrow decided against making a final summation, thereby taking this opportunity away from Bryan.
The jury found John Thomas Stopes guilty and the judge fined him $100. A successful film, Inherit the Wind (1960) was loosly based on the trial.
score one for free thinking.
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:28 pm
Love to Paint KasaChan Next month I am going to begin the process of Self-Initiation to Buckland's non-traditional form of Wicca, Seax-Wica.....yes I know it's not recognized as Wicca because it has rules that Buckland started. I know the history. I am not an idiot, so don't treat me like I am.
In my opinion Seax to Wicca in like Mormon to Christianity.
A lot of Christians don't consider Mormons Christian, and a lot of Wiccans don't consider Seax Wicca.
I get it. It is all clear to me now, thank you everyone whom I argued with for the past week or so. I am set in stone.
The rest is just semantics over this word "wicca" I know Btws who say that they're valid because they do things exactly Gardner's way, just don't have the initiated line back to him. I know BTW's who say that they have lineage back to Garner they just incorporate different Gods and Goddesses. There are hundreds of people out there lying about their lineage, who can really know for sure. I know British Traditionalists who are no more spiritual (and in some cases less) than people who proudly say they learned out of books.
Are you a better person for your studies?
I do believe there need to be standards, but I don't think they can be set here. I don't think you can buy a Silver Ravenwolf book and a pentacle and then call yourself Wiccan because you say so, but unfortunately we just don't have hard and set rules. The line is very thick and very grey where wicca starts and ends (unless you are one of those who say lineage back to Gardner end of story)
I think it is time that Wiccans realize that the word is acceptable for others to use. Call yourselves Gardnerians if you believe your lineage is true, but more harm than good is being done by discounting the true magick of others because of this word you are clinging to.
I applaud you on becoming Seax Wiccan, good luck in your endeavors. Be proud. I have had the good fortune of meeting Raymond Buckland several times (he lives here in Ohio) he is a highly spiritual man and wise human being.
kage no neko Vixen: You can't at all accurately compare Wicca and Christianity. They function so completely differently, it's not a matter of "oh, I just don't like you / believe what you do". Wicca is Gardner's religion. He set the rules down to say that you have to do this, or else you're not practicing his religion. It's like if I take my beliefs and establish my path with my own rules and call it "Potatoes of Doom" and make one of the rules to be a Potato that you have to always keep a potato in your left pocket. It's my religion, I can make it as silly as I want! You don't want to stuff a potato into your pocket every day? Then don't, but you can't be a Potato. Why? 'cause it's mine, I said so. With Wicca, Gardner established it, said that you have to follow the core.. You change that, do anything that's different from the rules he set down, you're not practicing Wicca.
so Potatoes Of Doom goes on for a while, until two people argue, "what potato is best?" half decide red russet, and half yukon gold. which is right? then theres the sect of purple potatoes, and THEN the sweet potatoes and yams jump into the mix. then there are those who think it dosent matter, a potato is a potato. are any of them right or wrong, though all are following the guidelines?
and i thought wicca was older then gardner? if he made rules it would be HIS sect, right?
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Dsay Valentine Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:34 pm
I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou? Again the split of the Roman Catholic Church occured in 1517. The things you read off of a google search can be very misleading and even false. Whereas things that have been well researched by reputable scholars, is neither.
Again, Martin Luther caused the division of the Church and the birth of the various demoninations. His protests and his letters are what fueled the split because he felt that the Church's practices were not Christ-like and that they were greedy.
The "split" in Wicca is much different than it is with Christianity. What fuels it isn't protests or the dislike of greedy people. What caused it is the fact that greedy people feel the need to take advantage and use a name that they have no right to do. The word Wicca is I believe copyrighted by Gardner himself as he was the one who uses it within his books. Therefore the likes of Silver Ravenwolf, Cunningham, Buckingham, DJ Conway, etc can't label their practices as Wicca. Unless they obtain rights from the family of Gardner or rather his estate.
Also back in the 20's science and evolution were just budding ideas. People didn't understand that back thing, evolution can be compatabile with Christianity. Also you had things like Women's Sufferage and Prohibition going on. But again, the split of Christianity didn't start in 1925. Fundamentalism didn't just start in 1925, it's been an ongoing thing dating back to the beginning of the Protestant Reformation in 1517.I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:14 pm
kage no neko In my religion, yams and sweet potatoes are not real potatoes (as they are just tubers, not in the actual potato family), so they would not qualify to be in my Potatoes of Doom. (is there really such thing as a purple potato? o_O) I suppose until I die, I get to make the decisions on what potatoes are qualifying potatoes. And once I die, hopefully it would be clearly spelled out in my religion what qualifies as an acceptable Potato. That's what Gardner did, he spelled out his religion in his Book of Shadows, and passed it on to lineaged folks. And the core is in there, whatever guidelines it might happen to be, would spell out.. his kinds of acceptable potatoes. (sorry it's confusing.. I say things how it works easier for me.. I'll try to clarify further if needed) Quote: and i thought wicca was older then gardner? if he made rules it would be HIS sect, right? Gardner made Wicca. The ideas in it are older than Wicca itself, but Wicca is HIS religion. It's like if I take all these ideas from all these books (which are not in any way bound to a specific religion or deity) and make it my religion. While the concepts may be older than my very new religion, the religion itself is not that old.
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:17 pm
xLady Tsukiyox I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou? Again the split of the Roman Catholic Church occured in 1517. The things you read off of a google search can be very misleading and even false. Whereas things that have been well researched by reputable scholars, is neither.
Again, Martin Luther caused the division of the Church and the birth of the various demoninations. His protests and his letters are what fueled the split because he felt that the Church's practices were not Christ-like and that they were greedy.
I’m
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan again, i'm not referring to that. what i'm talking about was a split of people that were christians, not christianity itself. a social split more than a religious one. this HAS been researched by reputable scholars, which is probably because it was true, actually happened, and WAS RECORDED. seriously, look it up: "SCOPES TRIAL". just because you didn't here about something doesn't mean it didn't happen, and it doesn't mean that the people that know about it are wrong.
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