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bathory would be a more legitimate founder than venom. and while venom did it for the lulz, bathory and mercyful fate were both, seriously, satanists. celtic frost and hellhammer were also involved in the occult through crowleyan magic. while i'll agree that BM is not based on, and shouldn't be based on, serious satanic ideologies, i must say that anti-Christian sentiment and ideology is central to the development of the art form. yes, many people take it too seriously, but the entire genre has always flown in the face of Christianity, from venom's irreverent joking to the more serious church-burning stupidity. to separate anti-church sentiment from the music would seem to miss the point.

it's like punk - have you ever heard of a right-wing punk band? no, because everything punk is about flies in the face of conservative values, even if the band itself is apolitical.

Then in your logic, every single band that isn't anti-Christian, has absolutely no place in Black Metal. Every band that is "nuetral" doesn't have a place in Black Metal. Every band that that sings about forests and "being grim" doesn't have a place in Black Metal, BECAUSE they are missing the point.


........................Nice.


@Celtic: Are your opinion is what exactly? I agree but I dunno.... is not clear.

not true. the bands that sing about nature sing of a reverence for nature - they view nature in a religious way. that is not very christian - in fact, it's the essence of paganism. so they're not missing the point - in fact, they GET IT, more so than bands like dark funeral, who just go around praising satan because they think it makes them look cool.

trevor - wasn't SoD a joke? i may be thinking of another band, but from my memory, SoD was satirizing the right wing, not advocating conservatism

okay, we are interpreting the term "anti-christian" differently. correct me if i'm wrong, but when you say anti-christian you are referring to someone who is all like "christianity is evil" and thinks it should be driven from the earth and such (such as gaahl), as well as people who are all mocking the church and saying "hail satan" because they think it's cool (such as the fools in dark funeral). this is a strict definition.

what i mean by anti-christian is not necessarily one who CONDEMNS christianity, but one who simply rejects the abrahamic religions (judaism, christianity, and islam) as philosophies to live by. perhaps i should use a different term: non-abrahamic. a better phrasing would be that BM is non-abrahamic in its worldview, but not necessarily anti-christian. removing this non-abrahamic viewpoint would seem to miss the point of the genre.

also, i said BM is full of anti-church sentiment, which is not the same thing as anti christian. there are non-denominational christians who don't like the way churches - particularly the papacy - organizes the religion. perhaps anti-papist sentiment would have gotten my meaning across more accurately.

stressed i'm not bactracking. i'm trying to make myself understood. if you understood what i meant, your question would answer itself, but i (apparently) cant find a way to explain myself adequately.

you ask "what is it? anti-christian or nature?" what i'm saying is that it's NOT "anti-christian" per se, but rather, non-abrahamic and anti-church (or perhaps, more generally, anti organization). nature fits within the non-abrahamic worldview.

i still feel like i haven't properly explained myself, and if you still feel i haven't answered your question, i am sorry, but i'm not sure how else i can explain it. like a lot of things in life, what i mean seems perfectly clear to me, but when i write it down, i leave out some steps in my logic or something so that it isn't clear to others.

what i think i was trying to say was that "non-abrahamic" can encompass both anti-church sentiment, and nature/pagan sentiment. i've never been very good at explaining myself though, so meh neutral

and isn't paganism about disorganization and therefore explains mikes point