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2 Maccabees isn't in the Bible, luvv. That's apparently one of those Catholic "missing books of the Bible". Only use Biblical references.
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1 John 5:16-21

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin, but he who has been norn of God and the wicked one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lay under sway of the wicked one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true, that we are in Him who is true, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

Now, let me refer you to 1 John 5:11-12

"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Now, there is only one sin that is deadly. It is given to us in Matthew 12: 31-32

"Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come."



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Matthew 5:25

"Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the offi cer, and you be thrown into prison."

What point does this make in your arguement?

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1 Corinthians 3:11-17

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold,silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work endures, he will recieve a reward. if anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, though he will be saved yes as through fire. do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Base your life on Jesus Christ, and make use of the gifts that you've been given. Because in the end times, you'll be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ, and you and all your works will be put through fire. Whatever survives the fore is what you've done to better the kingdom, to serve God, to make use of your gifts. Whatever doesn't survive the fire is what has been done that is not of God.

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1 Peter 1:7

" that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it may be found to praise, onor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Again, this rewfers to the judgement of all believers at the Judgement seat of Christ in the end times.
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Matthew 12:32

"Anyone who speaks a word against the son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come."

How many times must i run around in circles?

"In this age," means in life. "In the age to come" means in death. Plug those two words in.

"but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in life or in death. "

This means that if you pass up what the Spirit has to offer, you miss out on the benefits, eternal life.
"In the age to come" was added to emphasize it - " In this age or the age to come" Not now, not EVER.
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Hebrews 12: 14

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the
Lord"

If you're saved, you're holy in God's eyes. Read above, I've already explained it.
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Revelation 21:27

"But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Okay, look.
"Those who are written in The Lamb's Book of Life" refers to the believers. Since it says that only the believers will enter, and it seperates them from the abominations and things that defile, that refers to the believers already being cleansed of their sins. It says that nothing that is unpure will enter, only the believers will.
So the believers are already pure.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the [world] to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

St. Augustine argued: "Some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next, would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv).

According to St. Isidore of Seville the Church taught that in the next life: "Some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6)

The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n.11) and other eminent theological writers.

Origen, the first great Church father, taught that if people depart this life with lighter faults, they are condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, preparing their souls for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. He wrote:

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones; but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col. 445, 44 cool .

They based their statements on the following Bible verse:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

Our works built on Christ will be tested. Inferior works - "wood, hay and stubble" - will be purged by "fire", while only the "gold, silver and precious stones" will survive for heaven. The clause, "he will suffer loss," implies temporary hardship and punishment, even though he will be saved. St. Peter in his Epistle also reminds us that the genuineness of our faith "is tested by fire." [1 Peter 1:7]

In the Bible St. Paul writes about a purging fire that will purify our works "for the Day." St. Peter reminds us that our faith will be refined and tested by fire. Elsewhere in the Bible, the action of the Holy Spirit is described as fire. "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Luke 3:16] According to the Spanish mystic, St. John of the Cross, the fire of Purgatory is God's Love purifying our soul in preparation for the final beatific vision - the heavenly union with God. (Rev 22:3-5) "For indeed our God is a consuming fire." [Hebrews 12:29]

Our redemption does not interfere with our free will; we can still reject our Lord through serious sin (Heb 10:26-27). Not all sin is mortal (1 John 5:17). Some sin is not serious enough to kill our friendship with God, but still it is harmful to us and neighbors. The mess (e.g. scandal) caused by our sin needs correction. This correction is temporal punishment (Hebrews 12:5-11). We can be corrected and cleansed through personal penance on earth or later in Purgatory - thanks to our Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Jesus in the Gospel talks about this correction and indirectly Purgatory at the end of His parable on forgiveness:

And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers (torturers), till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. [Matthew 18:34-35]

In this passage there is no mention of God punishing very serious sinners but only those who sin by not forgiving others. Also the punishment referred to here is not eternal as in hell (Mark 9:47-4 cool but only temporary - "till he should pay all his debt."

As stated in the Bible: "But nothing unclean shall enter it (heaven)..." [Rev 21:27]. These souls need to be purged of all "uncleanness", no matter how slight before seeing God face to face (Rev 22:3-5). Eventually all souls in Purgatory will go to heaven.


As for the theif on the cross and "Paradise":

To a thief who asked the dying Lord to remember him, Christ said, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43). But two days after this, when Christ was Resurrected and had taken up a glorious, tangible body, he appeared to Mary and told her, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). If Christ had been in Paradise but had not yet ascended to Heaven where the Father dwells, then what is Paradise? It is obviously some other place besides Heaven and appears to be a place where the spirits of the dead await the time of Resurrection.

The place known as "Abraham's Bosum" in Luke 16:19-31 is also known as "Paradise" elsewhere in the New Testament. "Paradise" was known to the Ancient Jews and the Earliest Christians to be the section of Sheol (Hades) that was thought to be the abode of the pious while awaiting the Resurrection. (This bit of knowledge is given in a Greek Bible Lexicon.) Paradise and The Kingdom of God where The Father dwells are two seperate places.

The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). Until the resurrection, though, there is currently a temporary Heaven "Paradise" (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and Hell "Hades" (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14).

Christ's Promise to the Malefactor:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

The same day Christ and the malefactor died, they were together as disembodied spirits in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom).

Christ Preached/Proclaimed the Gospel to the Dead in Sheol:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. [John 5:25]

He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So, he went and preached to the spirits in prison -- those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. [1 Peter 3:19]

That is why the Good News was preached even to those who have died --so that although their bodies were punished with death, they would still live in the spirit as God does. [1 Peter 4:6]

But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says: "He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men." What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. [Ephesians 4:7-10]

Note: In Judaism, Sheol was thought to exist "in the lower regions of the earth" as Saint Paul mentioned.

Early Church Fathers on Jesus Christ Preaching unto the Dead:

It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2)

And it has been shown also, in the second book of the Stromata, that the Apostles, following the Lord, preached the Gospel to those in Hades...For it was suitable to the divine administration, that those possessed of greater worth in righteousness, and whose life had been pre-eminent, on repenting of their transgressions, though found in another place, yet being confessedly of the number of the people of God Almighty, should be saved, each one according to his individual knowledge...If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was but to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there... (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:6)

When He became a soul, without the covering of the body, He dwelt among those souls which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself, or those whom He saw, for reasons known to Him alone, to be better adapted to such a course. (Origen, Against Celsus, 2:43)

"We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled." [Justin quotes some passages which the Jews evidently removed from Esdras and Jeremiah.] And again, from the sayings of some of Jeremiah these have been cut out: "The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 71-72)

Immediately after His death, Jesus "went and preached to the spirits in prison." Now this "prison" is surely not heaven, nor can it be hell since the souls in hell could not benefit from Christ's preaching. It is a third state. Perhaps the repentant thief joined Christ there that very day. In comparison to hell, Purgatory could rightly be described as Paradise.

Others may object by citing that Christ's Blood "cleanses us from all sin." [1 John 1:7] Now that is true, but His sacrifice of redemption can be applied in different ways, such as through Baptism, Confession, prayer... Another way is Purgatory. Soap and water may be enough to cleanse my body; however, both can be applied in different ways: sitz bath, sponge bath or shower.

Source: http://users.binary.net/polycarp/fire.html - Purgatory: The Purifying Fire

That is nothing more than a purely subjective personal alternative interpretation biased in the Modern Protestant persuation. Don't you find it odd that the Earliest Christians, who were closest and purest to the time and teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, interpreted it in a Purgatorial light? You are some 2000 years removed from them. Hmmm.


"So that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire..." [1 Peter 1:7]

Try other translations, and once again, yours is a purely subjective personal alternative interpretation.


I agree with Saint Augustine who in Early Christianity interpreted that verse thus...

"Some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next, would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv).

It is quite clear to me that that is what is meant/implied in that verse.

Spazzed_out_Basil, I tried to PM you tell you that I wanted to be your friend, but your PMs are disabled, ja.

Let's change the subject to the discussion of the Deuterocanonical Books of the Septuagint which were the same collection of Old Testament Scriptures used by Jesus Christ and the Apostles and the First Century Christians that is still used by Roman Catholics today.

(The following information is posted from various online sources compiled together)

Accepting the Deuterocanonicals depends on whether or not you are using the same compilation of Old Testament Scriptures that the Apostles used or not, which includes the Deutrocanonicals. If you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Ethiopian Christian you are, if you are Protestant, you are not.

"[T]he Early Christians used a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. This translation . . . contained an expanded canon which included a number of the so-called "deuterocanonical" (or "apocryphal") books. Although there was some initial debate over these books, they were eventually received by Christians into the Old Testament canon.

In reaction to the rise of Christianity, the Jews narrowed their canons and eventually excluded the deuterocanonical books - although they still regarded them as sacred. The modern Jewish canon was not rigidly fixed until the third century A.D. Interestingly, it is this later version of the Jewish canon of the Old Testament, rather than the canon of Early Christianity, that is followed by most modern Protestants today." ("Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament," The Christian Activist, Vol. 9, Fall/Winter 1996, p. 1,4-7.)

The Deuterocanonical Books in the Early Church

"In the first century the Christian Bible had simply been the Old Testament (read in the Septuagint version). Authority resided in this scripture and in the words of the Lord, which long circulated in oral tradition, as is apparent in the letter of Clement to the Corinthians." ("The Early Church" Henry Chadwick p 42)

The LXX version was also used by the authors of the New Testament.

Interestingly, when Luther and other Protestants rejected the Septuagint text and its Latin translation in the Vulgate, thus rejecting the Apocrypha, and instead used a smaller collection of Old Testament books from the Masoretic Hebrew text, they diverged from centuries of Christian tradition. As a result, the Roman Catholic Bible now has about twelve books more than the Protestant Bible, meaning that about 200 pages of text have been "subtracted" - one could say - from the Protestant Bible relative to the "traditional" Catholic Bible.

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands -- especially without warning them against them.

But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings.

And here are some of the quotations from the Deuterocanon in the New Testament:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Orthodox and Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament!

It is also ironic that Protestants reject the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals at councils such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), because these are the very same early Church councils that Protestants appeal to for the canon of the New Testament. Prior to the councils of the late 300s, there was a wide range of disagreement over exactly what books belonged in the New Testament. Certain books, such as the gospels, acts, and most of the epistles of Paul had long been agreed upon. However a number of the books of the New Testament, most notably Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and Revelation remained hotly disputed until the canon was settled. They are, in effect, "New Testament deuterocanonicals."

While Protestants are willing to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage (the councils they most commonly cite) for the canonicity of the New Testament deuterocanonicals, they are unwilling to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage for the canonicity of the Old Testament deuterocanonicals. Ironic indeed!

Well, seeing as to how I'm not Catholic, please, do prvide me with the verse and the biblical proof. This should be interesting.

Sorry, I didn't read your post until just now.

Please, in your arguements, such as in the entire first section, don't post things written by saints, as I'm not familiar with thise things, since I don't think there's anything special with the saints. I'm not Catholic, so references to Catholic books do me no good. Though I'd like to become more familiar with other beliefs and will research all I can, I'm only 13 and can only research and learn so fast. So, don't assume I know everything. At the same time, don't look down on me. As for the rest, I'll answer tomorrow, I've gotta go for now. Sorry I took so long getting back to yas!!