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and you have every right to base your opinion on your religion. and you have every right to vote based on your beliefs. i was just saying that i didn't think someone should. i didn't mean it specificially for you by the way. a part of your logic did come from your religious views, when you were talking about fate.



i stand corrected. i am a bit confused as to my source because i remember this big debate happening on the news not too long ago where someone was saying people should bring back orphanges because the foster-care system was too hard to moniter for abuse.



i'm not saying he shouldn't've been depressed, i'm sure ANYONE would've been depressed in such a situation and i'm sure the vast majority of people in this world do become depressed. but by saying someone in his situation should've been aborted rather than being subjected to that trauma, you are saying his life now, as an adult, has so little value that it should've never have happened.



sincerely, thank you for continuing this discussion. i absolutely want to understand your point of view as much as i want to relate to you, mine.

I don't understand all of this squabbling over "is it a human?" In truth, I really don't care.

If it is a liability to me, my family or my general surroundings, it's going. If I feel I would not make a good father, I will not be, nor will I be forced into it.

@Dust.And.Echoes.: Your opinion that "you aren't female, you have no right to decide" is ludicrous. That would only hold water of fatherhood/child care wasn't automatically attatched to the biological father. It is, though. You have to use your body, granted. However, you use my money. You risk sacrificing your figure, I risk living a comfortable life. If you think that men don't give anything up when a child is born, there may be something seriously wrong with you. It's called "extreme feminism".

Footnote: Refer to my disclaimer in the Introduction thread if you're offended. If you'er too lazy, PM me.

My opinion on men and abortion is...

Yes, they have a say. Yes, they are allowed to voice their opinion or urge the woman in the right direction (whether it be to keep the baby or not). But they cannot force a woman to get rid of a baby or keep it, nor should they ever be allowed to.

A man has to pay child support for a mistake that is 50% his fault to? Too bad. He should have thought about those risks before having sex. You should know your girl's stance on these sort of things before you stick anything in her. So, if you won't want a kid, find a pro-choicer that doesn't either.

[quote="First of all, breathing is a qualification of life. If I cannot breathe, I cannot live too long.

When I read that when you posted it, I didn't think it through carefully enough. There are people in subacute hospitals that cannot breathe. They have machines breathe for them. DO you not consider them alive.
I'm so stupid. I'm crying.
Maria can't breathe at night, so they have her there. Most of them can't. But they're still alive. they're still there, even when some people can't see it. I learned that being prolife means being against abortion and for these neglected people in hospitals. They die you know, if neglected long enough. The hospital will kepp there bodies running, but without someone there for them, they become vegatables. One of the nurses cried when a family had the feeding tube removed from the patient. The nurse was there enough to see, that he was there, but the family wasn't. My mom died because peeople aren't willing to stand for these people. Same goes for abotrion. Doesn't anyone value human life? My mom helped people, the homeless, the poor, addicts; and she was sincere. Wasn't her life valuable enough to save?
This isn't a tangent from abortion this goes with the same thing. Life is life. Plants are life, but they have no potetnial for feeling or thought. Animals are life, but they know their place in the food chain, and most can't remember much anyway. They have no potential for intelligent life.
Fetuses have that. Isn't that enough to value them? Subacute have that, but they can be left to die?
What I wrote might sound stupid. In fact, you'll probably consider the mom thing as something I made up for my case. Whatever.

Alright, Kalorn, we all understand the issue of Bodily Domain. You can't force someone to give up a part of thier body, or use their body in a way that they do not consent to.

THIS APPLIES TO FETUSES.

So, by the same rule that a man cannot force a woman into aborting, a woman can legally have one.

Feel guilty about it? Do it on your own time. But, don't you try to prevent me from excercizing a right.

Tigress: And, should the pill the woman was on fail, and the condom the man was wearing break? A man should be forced into unwanted support for something he couldn't do anythign to prevent? Here, let me put this ina new light for you:





Abortion is a method for a woman to deal with the concequences of sex. Men should have a similar right, seeing as to how they cannot force a woman to terminate a pregnancy.

I was unaware that I said breathing is the only qualification for life.

Hmm... Let's see.


Ahh...

I suggest you read a little more carefully next time. I said that the ability to breathe is simply a qualification of life. In no way did I imply that it was the only qualification for life - that was a bad inference on your part. I will grant that I worded it in such a way to easily allow for such an inference, so part of it is my fault, for not being completely clear in what I said - however, as I stated earlier, the blame is not completely mine.

To answer your questions:
Do I value human life? To the point where I refuse to force my morals and beliefs on someone else. I respect their ability to make their own decisions and live with the consequences of said decisions. I cannot think of a better way to show how I, personally, value human life.

Was your mother's life valuable enough to save? I do not know. I can assure you that a life in which I was confined to a bed, hooked up to a machine is one I would quickly abandon.

Is the potential to become intelligent life enough to value it? Whether potential intelligent life is to be valued is not what matters. What matters is whether we value existing human life. If we value existing human life, then we need to realize that we need choice. If we cannot make a choice we cannot value others, since value is based upon the ability for us to choose to harm or not harm.

You wanna have sex? Deal with the baby. Sex= mating
Everything else sensual about it just snares us into it.
And, forced organ whatever is just creepy. That is someone's choice, although I never considered a fetus an organ. xp

I like how the people who are most tolerant of other cultures/religions/etcetera are mostly pro-choice. These kinds of people are my favorites. They realize that even though their beliefs may differ from others', they can't force other people to change their beliefs.

I wish everyone could realize that. I think the world would me a much more peaceful place.

(I'm pro-choice too, by the way.)