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SaiBlackNight

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:54 am


Silence...wow. Was my defense that good?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:16 pm


Possibly. That, or people just aren't visiting the ED board.

While your defense was excellent, I'd highly suspect it's the latter.

GilAskan
Crew


Silenus Slade

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:49 pm


SaiBlackNight
Christianity and the bible are not contradictory.

The reason why so many people believe it is, or they think that they have found a place in the bible where it contradicts itself is because they have not fully understood the text.

What i mean by this is they miss 'interperited' somewhere. See, when reading the bible, a lot needs to take place.

People need to remember when the text was written, and how people understood it then. They need to read the surrounding text, because without that it means nothing. They also need to read up on their history, and understand what things meant back them.

Take for example the prodicle son (excuse my spelling). It says that the father ran to his son. Now, we look at this and say...so? Well, back then older men did not run, it was a matter of pride. This father threw away his pride to greet his son, so it does have meaning. But to us, it means nothing so we need to understand the times back then and the way that things were done.

So many things go into reading the bible that people do not realize, and so many people take things out of context. If you do that, then you can find contradictions yes. But that's only because you're not reading it in context.


Ugh, fine. Here's a rather glib response:
Yup, you're right. People need to just make crap up. We need to "imagine" the events that took place and interpret them by "imagining" how they "should" (note the normative approach) apply. Actually, considering how the bible was compiled, it sounds like the bible has already had a lot of that going on for itself.
Basically, the bible is decent joint work of fiction. "Historical" fiction? Well, maybe, but so is a lot of Sima Qian's and other prominent historians' because that is the lens in which we perceive history. Does that mean it doesn't have any value? Nope, on the contrary, fiction (Note: Murakami's "Norwegian Wood") has plenty of insight and value.

Throw in some stuff about theodicy, the indivisibility of religion and its people, and a few sleepless nights and maybe there will be some great "justification of the ways of god to man," but "Paradise Lost" certainly didn't manage to do it.

Oh, and I'm not against religion. I'm just against arguing for religion. It's not really necessary.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:36 am


Silenus Slade
I'm just against arguing for religion. It's not really necessary.


Another very good point. Arguing for or against religion is pretty pointless; religion is based on belief, and belief can't be proved or disproven.

GilAskan
Crew


Aymeriki

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:24 am


GilAskan
Silenus Slade
I'm just against arguing for religion. It's not really necessary.


Another very good point. Arguing for or against religion is pretty pointless; religion is based on belief, and belief can't be proved or disproven.
that is why you must have faith
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:55 pm


Aymeriki
GilAskan
Silenus Slade
I'm just against arguing for religion. It's not really necessary.


Another very good point. Arguing for or against religion is pretty pointless; religion is based on belief, and belief can't be proved or disproven.
that is why you must have faith


or just go with the flow and see what happens.

Silenus Slade


iola nightmare

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:45 pm


I have nothing against a majority of Christians. Most of them are just like everyone else I know. But like all religions it has its faults.
Also, Christians try to convert people more than every other religion (in my personal experience at least). You never see Buddhists or Wiccans coming to your doorstep with pamphlets.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:50 am


GilAskan
omnimodus
I'm not a fan of Christianity myself. I don't agree with the Bible, or the teachings of the church. I could give reasons, but I won't for the fact that some people may find them offensive. Just as long as you keep Christianity well away from me, we'll get along splendidly smile


...the Bible you should remember isn't one book, but 66 books written by 66 different people with different opinions.

If you're entirely against what the bible teaches, you're against just about every possible view point.

Yeah, there are some points in the Bible where some of the authors are homophobic ("The deepest pits of hell are reserved for traitors and sodomites"), but there are also points where it says to accept everyone, no matter what ("Love all people as you would love your children").

There are points which say that God is a merciless overlord who will kill anyone who defies him, and other points which say that God will forgive anyone who truly feels that what they've done is wrong.

To refrain, the Bible isn't just one set of opinions: it's many different opinions by many different people, written and translated over the course of thousands of years.


I shy away from religious discussions as a policy, but two quick things. First, there are not 66 books and 66 authors, as several authors wrote more than one book. Second, i find it odd that you would say the bible is "many different opinions by many different people, written and translated over the course of thousands of years." That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.

zz1000zz
Crew


Silenus Slade

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:52 pm


zz1000zz

That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.


It's not divine. Problem solved. I'd like to see someone argue that it is divine though.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:11 pm


SaiBlackNight

O_o

My friend, have you even read the bible? Because you are making accusation about it that are not true.

Let me begin with Isaiah 44:6
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Also...please do not take text from the bible out of context. See, that's how you people twist the text.

John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And last, for now, could you please find the text where it says to burn the witches in the bible?

Hard facts and text. You need it to support your view. smile


the first statement does not mean that there is no other gods, it simply means that in his religion there are no other gods. this does not exclude the gods of other religions from their own separate religions, but excudes them from his.
the second quote, if one thinks hard about it, refers only to the one specific god. it does not say that there is no other afterlife, and in fact the large amount of confirmed claims of reincarnation would quite easily contradict that. i personally have been reincarnated several times in several forms, though i still seek confirmation for myself and others.
again, as i stated several tiems in this forum, i was once a christian myself.
now, the quote stating that witches should be burned, was from the "new living translation" of the bible, which is the one primarily used by the church i used to go to, and is quickly gaining in popularity, being reworded for the common man to understand, making it the bible that many folks will believe in.
i looked on a whim a couple months back to see what it really said about witches, seeing as witches were once accepted within christian society, and pagans were free to live as they pleased. i looked in the back index for stuff. i didnt believe that there was any problem until finding that(i've since tossed out that bible or given it to my mother, i dont know which, so i cant grab the quote for you). now, that may not have been the original intention or even the original wording, but if, as most christians will say, the bible itself is the written word of god, coming straight from god and being absolute truth, that doesnt make a lick of difference.

DR490N


zz1000zz
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:32 am


Silenus Slade
zz1000zz

That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.


It's not divine. Problem solved. I'd like to see someone argue that it is divine though.


Christianity relies on the bible being either divine word, or divinely inspired. If such is not true, modern Christianity collapses.

By the way, if you are going to take a contrary stance, you should at least have the courtesy of explaining your reasoning.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:19 am


Thank you for providing the sources and evidence required to support your outlandish claims DR490N. Your willingness to cooperate and participate in an open discussion has really enlightened me. Those exact verses you provided me were precisely what it took to turn me to your point of view...

Or at least that would be true if every word coming out of your mouth was not gibberish. That would be true if your manner of debate consisted of any attempt to convey a message other than "I am cooler than you." Indeed, all of those things may have been true if your posts had as much merit as the scribblings on bathroom stalls. As that is not the case, all i can say to you is, "Please quit making sounds come out of your mouth-hole. It makes my ears bleed."

zz1000zz
Crew


Silenus Slade

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:34 am


zz1000zz
Silenus Slade
zz1000zz

That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.


It's not divine. Problem solved. I'd like to see someone argue that it is divine though.


Christianity relies on the bible being either divine word, or divinely inspired. If such is not true, modern Christianity collapses.

By the way, if you are going to take a contrary stance, you should at least have the courtesy of explaining your reasoning.


Actually, no warrant was given for the bible's divinity, so it would be difficult, even unfair, for me to have a concrete response. As far as I can see, all you have said is "Christians think it is." So please have the courtesy of starting off with a well-developed explaination and I will be happy to respond with numerous canned arguments Christians have never been able to fully argue against. Theodicy alone is good enough to remove typical depictions of a god from the picture. If, of course, that does not seem to challenge you, I will be happy to start writing papers on the matter.

You get what you give.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:19 am


Silenus Slade
zz1000zz
Silenus Slade
zz1000zz

That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.


It's not divine. Problem solved. I'd like to see someone argue that it is divine though.


Christianity relies on the bible being either divine word, or divinely inspired. If such is not true, modern Christianity collapses.

By the way, if you are going to take a contrary stance, you should at least have the courtesy of explaining your reasoning.


Actually, no warrant was given for the bible's divinity, so it would be difficult, even unfair, for me to have a concrete response. As far as I can see, all you have said is "Christians think it is." So please have the courtesy of starting off with a well-developed explaination and I will be happy to respond with numerous canned arguments Christians have never been able to fully argue against. Theodicy alone is good enough to remove typical depictions of a god from the picture. If, of course, that does not seem to challenge you, I will be happy to start writing papers on the matter.

You get what you give.


The same warrant is used for the divinity of the bible as is used for the existence of god. Faith. If you wish to say the bible is not divine, you are somewhat obligated to critique this faith, rather than blandly dismiss it.

As for what i "give," i simply explained what Christians believed. I made no assertation of fact or truth, so your contrary statement is the baseline giving you any burden there may be.

Honestly, i am not sure what your purpose here is as i have made no claim of fact, but rather pointed out a possible contradiction in someone's post.

zz1000zz
Crew


Silenus Slade

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:50 pm


Faith is not an argument. It is an assertion.

If you want to somehow turn faith into a warrant, you need something other than a tagline and assumptions. This is a basic premise to argumentation.

Do not ask me what my purpose is if you have quoted and "responded" to something I have written. That is inviting a response, and thus is the purpose in writing.
I have no tolerance for people who try to argue for things based on faith--I repeat, faith is not an argument. If you want to rely on faith, you should not even be discussing this as the thing to do would be to say, "I have faith, that is all I can say." That, I could respect.

You want me to critique the faith?
1.) It is a faith, thus based on belief--conviction, trust, confidence. This creates two problems. First, beliefs are called what they are because of a lack of factual evidence. Otherwise, it would also be a scientific theory (note: definition of scientific theory is different from a theory) with experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis and also be able to draw conclusions from it. That is why a belief in gravity (the semantics religious people play with) is a misnomer, because you "know" gravity exists. You can see plenty of evidence and mathematical proof. The second problem is that even if we were to take faith as a criterion for evaluating value, we would have to look at each person's moral fiber to decide whether the religion held value. Looking at the general populous, I do no think that is how a religion would like to be evaluated in general.

2. Theodicy. If god is god, he is not good. If god is good, he is not god. Explaining the nature of evil and its existence in the world is a problem theologians constantly grapple with. It is easier in times of peace, but as soon as people encounter hardship, the tone changes.

3. Most Christian religions, take Catholicism for example, are nihilistic. They reject the value of the physical (note: real) world and instead beg the question of a meaning to life by producing this afterlife which, depending on which sect you believe in, will generally ignore most worldly actions. So what is the point? "Nevermind, look a this shiny thing."

4. A religion and its people are inseperable. A religion cannot exist without people because that is where the structure lies for worship and belief. Ironically, this means a god is not necessary to have a religion. In fact, having a god would pose a restriction on the church in a way to cease its evolution. If you look at most monotheist religions over the years, there has been quite a bit of change. So who is right? Have the basic principles of the god suddenly disappeared?

5. Religious assimilation. How much of a Christian religion comes from various other religions? Well if you believe the historical evidence that Yahweh was once a vengeful mountain god, it goes back quite a ways. Makes the idea of a noodle monster somewhat plausible assuming someone digs back far enough. Is this a taint on the religion or what it was meant to be? If it is a taint, religion as we see it today is false. If it is meant to be, then there is an acceptance in the fictionalization of higherpowers in order to create dramatic, awe-inspiring stories to imbue morals. If you go with Durkheim, there is a pure element in each religion if you go back far enough, so how different is the true faith? Let's just say most civilizations, if you go back far enough, had human sacrifices.

Oh the list goes on and on.
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