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| Do you agree with Selective Salvation? |
| Yes |
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15% |
[ 5 ] |
| No |
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84% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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 Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:03 pm
Theopneustos Thank you. *bows* If you want my opinion, I must say that if God is gracious towards that unsaved man, then that man will be indeed, redeemed. And even so, we should pray earnestly for all sinners, both Jew and Gentile, so that they may be saved by God. But, from the Word of God, Paul writes in Romans 10:14, 15, 17, says, "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news,'" and "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Paul also makes it clear in Romans 1:20, that no man is "without excuse." Paul also writes in Romans 2:14, 15, "(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Their conscience (the Gentiles) bears witness, and the law written in their hearts is the accuser and excuser. The Epistle to the Romans, I must say, gives a great theological perspective, especially since Paul, in this letter, presents the Gospel in a wonderful way. mrgreen Indeed, very good. 3nodding Predestination is quite a mystery in Christianity and I'm going to leave my position on double-predestination blank until I have deeply research this topic. I must say, you do provide me with a promising and interesting argument, which I will keep in mind. I wish I could decide right away but I made to many mistakes that way.
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:12 am
Jedediah Smith Indeed, very good. 3nodding Predestination is quite a mystery in Christianity and I'm going to leave my position on double-predestination blank until I have deeply research this topic. I must say, you do provide me with a promising and interesting argument, which I will keep in mind. I wish I could decide right away but I made to many mistakes that way. I will not be returning as Theopneustos, but as John Calvin. xd What can I say? Anyway, I agree that predestination is quite a mystery in Christianity. It should not be taken lightly. And take your time. I did, concerning on how one is saved, and even though for me, it was a difficult time, I still strove to learn the answer to my questions.
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:22 pm
I like to think of predestination in this light:
Think of your life as a long path you travel throughout the course of your human existence. When it is time for you to die, you reach the end of the path, and there are two doors, one leading to heaven and one to hell. If your soul had been "predestined" to end up in heaven or hell, it would not matter which door you chose; you would end up in the place you were "predestined" to be.
Though many believe (myself included) that when you reach those two doors, the one you choose is the place you will spend eternity. Though God may have known what you were to choose, He didn't "predestine" you to one place or the other; your choice was the deciding factor.
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:02 pm
Tangled Up In Blue I think Cometh's point is that the supposed difference between supralapsarian and infralapsarian theology is largely semantical rather than substantive. It doesn't matter whether God actively picks whom He wants to damn (supra) or if he instead allows people to be damned through His own inaction (infra); in the end those people still wind up damned, and largely through no fault of their own. I suppose a better example of his point would be this: 'I didn't stab that man; someone else did. I just watched him bleed to death.' So... is that what you believe or not?
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:39 pm
Theopneustos Jedediah Smith I wish I could redo this whole topic because I have clearly understood and knowledge predestination. I know most of you maybe shocked to hear this but I do believe clearly now that God has predestined, selected for himself who will be saved before beginning of time. Yes, I said it. I had to be corrected which makes sense to me now. However, I do not believe that God has predestined some to Hell because its not biblical but rather a human logic conclusion. Also I believe that man has the responsibility to respond to the Gospel. Most here would think that is a contradiction but its perhaps alogical. I suggest listen to Dr. Walter Martin's sermon on predestination. http://waltermartin.org/Legalism12.ram (Realplayer Stream) I have changed my position and theological perspective in this topic. This is indeed, amazing, Jedediah Smith. It is, really. I recall the time I had argued against a person here at Fire Fall named SaintXenos, and she said that we all have free will, but we do not have the freedom to choose to be saved. Her stance was Calvinistic in nature, and at that time, I had objected towards it. In my past time as I struggled with the issue of whether or not it is our decision to be saved, I came across a person named John Hendryx, who, when asking him, What if I don't believe in neither Calvinism or Arminianism? - told me, "It doesn't matter if you're neither a Calvinist or an Arminian. What matters is if you believe in monergism or synergism." From there, my beliefs were dramatically changed forever, and I could not help but preach the "doctrines of grace," as I would call it. I see that you do not believe that God predestines some to hell. That's fine. This is the Lutheran stance (though Martin Luther didn't believe in what you know as "single predestination"). All that matters to me, Jedediah, is that you hold onto the teachings that the Reformation taught five-hundred years ago, back in the sixteenth century. Truly again, I am most amazed, and I do apologize for coming at you as I did before when I discovered this thread. I could, by the way, present you with some verses that would support "double-predestination." mrgreen omg i remember you xD i thought that this topic would NEVER be brought up again after the last happenings *cough* but yeah its good to see some old faces. whats up Theo? i dont think i recall seeing you talking in the main forum cuz i have been back for a while now smile ive been reading through most of the responses on this topic and i MUST say im impressed that more have finally seen the very thing i was tryign to show the last time this type of thread was brought up. and on a second thought, reading your comments here theo....my views on some things have changed, including free will. i see youve been to monergism.com too. (and btw, im not calvinist. i never was. just alot of my views are 90% similar to calvinism, except for one view point that Calvinism believes that God sent his son to die on the cross ONLY for the elect. absolute bull honestly. God doesnt love selectedly, he just "saves" selectedly) back to the point, Free will. you are VERY correct. we do not have free will. For (as quoted from monergism.com) what are we free FROM? sin? God's decree? Free means to be without barriers, and if we have barriers we are NOT free at all. this very topic i actually was on a very wonderful debate with.....god i cant remember his name. but it was when i first came intot his guild. and i wasnt sure what to think of free will. but after much study from the bible, ive come to terms with my belief on it. and to clarify, Man has A will. i call it simply "limited will" we still have the choices of most things, but not ALL of them, including the belief in predestination. Man can not save man. If man can not save man what makes people think we can "simply" choose to go to god?
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:12 am
Jedediah Smith God blessed man with the ability to reject or accept Him and His Son. I have pointed out this position in Scripture and yet you still ignore it. uh huh. you do realize the difference between "irrevolcable salavation" and trust/faith right? what im saying is that, once salvation is given we DONT have a choice in taking it away from ourselves. John 10: 27-29 27: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28: and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29: My father, who has given them to Me, is greather than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. however, we DO have a choice in "liking" god. God does not force us to love or hate him. Same thing with trust, we aren't forced to trust God, we're just forced to believe or not believe in him. From finally reading pretty much ALOT of what was said here, i failed to see the scripture i always post when dealing with predestination, and its a KEY verse in understanding predestination (for those who ARENT called). If you are not called you are considered natural man. 1 Cor 2:14 But a "natural man" does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT undersatnd them, because they are spiritually appraised. (NASB) Now read it again and REALLY think about what this is saying guys. If you are not chosen, then you are predestined (forced) to not believe in God or accept him. this means that it doesnt matter WHAT you teach or preach to the non chosen, they will never be able to come to christ. Why? verse 15: But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by NO MAN. (NASB) If man can not appraise...."SAVE" man, then what makes people think we can just simply save someone by preaching the bible to them? its like a second language to them THEY CANT "understand" it. Its jibberish and foolishness to them. we can do NOTHING. How do we know that those who are not chosen are "predestined" to NOT believe? its at the end of verse 14. "...and he CANNOT undersatnd them, because they are SPIRITUALLY appraised." Spiritually appraised....you realize what that means? it says spiritually because it is ONLY intervened by God, not by man's own doing. "natural man" does not fall because they are naturally that way, they fall because they are MADE that way. thers a huge difference.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:12 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor So... is that what you believe or not? Well, for me the whole debate is rather moot, to be perfectly honest. But it is my personal opinion that both supralapsarian and infralapsarian put forth theories of salvation that are inherently unjust, yes.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:12 pm
Theopneustos Equal ultimacy, as it would be called, is not held by Reformed orthodoxy. It is held by hyper-Calvinists. Reformed theology teaches that double-predestination is unequal ultimacy, viz., the work of election is asymmetrical, while hyper-Calvinists hold the teaching that election is symmetrical, as if election and reprobation had to be balanced. Equal ultimacy would be to say that while God intervenes in the life of the elect to give them belief, at the same time, God intervenes in the life of the reprobate to give continuous unbelief. Again, election is not the same as predestination. And, your example is confusing. Wait, wait wait... I seem to be a little confused. in most schools of logic, if we substitute ' a' for the process of becoming elected through God's choice, ' b' for the state of being one of God's elect, and ' c' for the state of being damned (or non-elect), than: a→ b¬ b→ c ¬ a→ cHowever, what you are saying is that the third statement is, somehow wrong. Correct? And, if so, why?
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:14 pm
Tangled Up In Blue Cometh The Inquisitor So... is that what you believe or not? Well, for me the whole debate is rather moot, to be perfectly honest. But it is my personal opinion that both supralapsarian and infralapsarian put forth theories of salvation that are inherently unjust, yes. Ah, Ok. I got a little confused there for a moment.
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:21 pm
Now I have some questions about this theory: How can one be sure that they are saved? I am Christian, accepted Jesus into my heart as my Savior, admitted I was a Sinner, etc., but how do I know that I was not "predestined" to hell? Can I be certain of my salvation? Does it even matter that I put effort into witnessing about Christ and his redemption of our souls? I mean, what's the point if God has already decided their fate? This all makes little sense to me.
EDIT
This is all hypothetically speaking. I stand with Jedediah on this one.
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:18 pm
Glorified Soul Now I have some questions about this theory: How can one be sure that they are saved? I am Christian, accepted Jesus into my heart as my Savior, admitted I was a Sinner, etc., but how do I know that I was not "predestined" to hell? Can I be certain of my salvation? Does it even matter that I put effort into witnessing about Christ and his redemption of our souls? I mean, what's the point if God has already decided their fate? This all makes little sense to me. EDIT This is all hypothetically speaking. I stand with Jedediah on this one. if you "believe" in god, then you are not considered natural man. i posted this above but i dont think anyone bothered reading it....so ill post it again. Quote: 1 Cor 2:14 But a "natural man" does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT undersatnd them, because they are spiritually appraised. (NASB) Now read it again and REALLY think about what this is saying guys. If you are not chosen, then you are predestined (forced) to not believe in God or accept him. this means that it doesnt matter WHAT you teach or preach to the non chosen, they will never be able to come to christ. Why? verse 15: But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by NO MAN. (NASB) If man can not appraise...."SAVE" man, then what makes people think we can just simply save someone by preaching the bible to them? its like a second language to them THEY CANT "understand" it. Its jibberish and foolishness to them. we can do NOTHING. How do we know that those who are not chosen are "predestined" to NOT believe? its at the end of verse 14. "...and he CANNOT undersatnd them, because they are SPIRITUALLY appraised." Spiritually appraised....you realize what that means? it says spiritually because it is ONLY intervened by God, not by man's own doing. "natural man" does not fall because they are naturally that way, they fall because they are MADE that way. but since you "can" believe in god, then your already saved. and i repeat, if you were not chosen then you'd end up being "natural man" and natural man, as posted above, are predestined for hell. do keep in mind we ALLLLL deserve Hell. its merely god's choosing as to who are saved.
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:02 pm
But, why should those who "can" believe be allowed into heaven? What exactly makes us "superior" to those who cannot? Is it all just luck?
EDIT
Do not take this the wrong way; I just want answers, but what was/is the point in God's creation of those who cannot believe? I do not mean to question God. Do not get me wrong. I'm just trying to understand this theology.
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:00 pm
Glorified Soul But, why should those who "can" believe be allowed into heaven? What exactly makes us "superior" to those who cannot? Is it all just luck? EDIT Do not take this the wrong way; I just want answers, but what was/is the point in God's creation of those who cannot believe? I do not mean to question God. Do not get me wrong. I'm just trying to understand this theology. people who "can" believe are predestined to. we aren't superior to others, but God knows us before the day we are even created. he doesn't give us specific reasons as to why, except that being the only one. he "knows" us better than your best friend....he knows us better than ourselves. he knows if his salvation is wasted on us or not. i can pull out the verse late if you want me to, but in a nutshell thers a verse that states that "everything has a purpose, even the day of the wicked". (including the non chosen) luck does not exist. if luck existed we wouldn't need god. and hey no problem. i get questions asked all the time, and as strong as my faith is in god......even I myself have questioned him on such things. and i still do.... but as the bible says "dont lean on your own understanding". we are mere humans...we can only speculate so much before we actually "meet" god in person one day. until then all we have is faith and the bible.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:46 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wait, wait wait... I seem to be a little confused. in most schools of logic, if we substitute ' a' for the process of becoming elected through God's choice, ' b' for the state of being one of God's elect, and ' c' for the state of being damned (or non-elect), than: a→ b¬ b→ c¬ a→ cHowever, what you are saying is that the third statement is, somehow wrong. Correct? And, if so, why? Should this here concern me, since I do not believe in equal ultimacy? Furthermore, you'll have to be a bit more specific. Saying, "However, what you are saying in that the (sic) third statement is, somehow wrong," does not specific as to what "third statement" you speak of. My, it has been some time since I was here last. I do not know why this thread is still here.
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