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 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:24 pm
Yami no Sakura tbh, I'm not sure that it's illegal. I reread the ToS and Rules & Guidelines from top to bottom, and it didn't mention anything about market manipulation (either artificial inflation or deflation). The only rules that mention market manipulation were written in the Exchange Forum Rules and Guidelines. It mentions that "pricejacking" is illegal, but that is specifically referring to using a mule to compete against a real buyer in an auction in order to increase the HB. It says that pricejacking is a form of AI, and it's illegal because it counts as cheating. I don't know if it can be argued that what we're doing is cheating. We're not auctioning, so pricejacking doesn't apply to us. Whether or not we're "cheating others for profit" may be debatable. Technically speaking we are not individually gaining gold, but if we crash the market value of these items, we are saving ourselves and others the cost of buying them by lowering the price. ...This is getting too complicated for my not lawyer brain. It might be in our best interest to ask a mod or an admin. Odds are good that just listing a ton of items at a low price isn't illegal, and asking guildies to buy it up is most likely okay too. But using a mule to to buy them back for relisting...that might get sketchy. EDIT 'cause grammar I think it's illegal. True, we're not gaining gold in the process of doing it but by the end product of our actions we can make the items we kept selling cheaper therefore our purchasing power increases and so as the rest who will gain from it namely alchemists which was our primary objective. More purchasing power means we did something that has gotten us "exploit to a site glitch by fooling people that the item has been bought by different unintentional and purely coincidental users and decreasing its listed mp value to make the sellers price the item low when it's supposed to be high on their natural price before our intervention". We basically fooled people with the numbers to make them list things low in a nutshell. Therefore we exploited the site's number display for profit gain, and if we don't profit from it then others will do but the point that we did it and not profiting from it doesn't remove our moral culpability. I am not a hundred percent sure that it is illegal but from the second paragraph is the sole reason why I think it is. If a mod or admin can tell me that second paragraph is rubbish then I'll sign up for the extreme deflation of wooden trunk right now.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:06 am
Sphyxia I think it's illegal. True, we're not gaining gold in the process of doing it but by the end product of our actions we can make the items we kept selling cheaper therefore our purchasing power increases and so as the rest who will gain from it namely alchemists which was our primary objective. More purchasing power means we did something that has gotten us "exploit to a site glitch by fooling people that the item has been bought by different unintentional and purely coincidental users and decreasing its listed mp value to make the sellers price the item low when it's supposed to be high on their natural price before our intervention". We basically fooled people with the numbers to make them list things low in a nutshell. Therefore we exploited the site's number display for profit gain, and if we don't profit from it then others will do but the point that we did it and not profiting from it doesn't remove our moral culpability. I am not a hundred percent sure that it is illegal but from the second paragraph is the sole reason why I think it is. If a mod or admin can tell me that second paragraph is rubbish then I'll sign up for the extreme deflation of wooden trunk right now. Where did you find that quote? I don't recall seeing it anywhere. Anyway, we're not exploiting a site glitch; the ABP is a feature, and we're using its function as it was designed. If intentionally deflating an item is against Gaia's TOS, then I have a long string of people for them to ban for intentionally inflating based on the same principle. Just yesterday, one person (and maybe a handful of his friends) bought every single Angelic Headband in the MP and relisted them for just shy of 40 million, a 10000% increase in price. Even though people are listing the Headbands for cheaper than that, it's ABP is now 1.2 mil, which is still a 300% increase in price. I did some searching, and it seems like there is A LOT of inconsistencies and grey areas. Some people say that AI is bannable and that an entire guild has been banned for conspiring to control an item's market value. Others say that it's not illegal because Gaia operates as a free market. There is hearsay that the admins and devs admit that it's a grey area. They will ban people who are blatantly conspiring to inflate an item beyond what it's worth, but it's hard for them to tell when someone is buying out an item in order to control the market or if they genuinely need/want to collect it. ...that said, I'mma go report those assholes I found for inflating the Angelic Headbands.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:23 am
Yami no Sakura Sphyxia I think it's illegal. True, we're not gaining gold in the process of doing it but by the end product of our actions we can make the items we kept selling cheaper therefore our purchasing power increases and so as the rest who will gain from it namely alchemists which was our primary objective. More purchasing power means we did something that has gotten us "exploit to a site glitch by fooling people that the item has been bought by different unintentional and purely coincidental users and decreasing its listed mp value to make the sellers price the item low when it's supposed to be high on their natural price before our intervention". We basically fooled people with the numbers to make them list things low in a nutshell. Therefore we exploited the site's number display for profit gain, and if we don't profit from it then others will do but the point that we did it and not profiting from it doesn't remove our moral culpability. I am not a hundred percent sure that it is illegal but from the second paragraph is the sole reason why I think it is. If a mod or admin can tell me that second paragraph is rubbish then I'll sign up for the extreme deflation of wooden trunk right now. Where did you find that quote? I don't recall seeing it anywhere. Anyway, we're not exploiting a site glitch; the ABP is a feature, and we're using its function as it was designed. If intentionally deflating an item is against Gaia's TOS, then I have a long string of people for them to ban for intentionally inflating based on the same principle. Just yesterday, one person (and maybe a handful of his friends) bought every single Angelic Headband in the MP and relisted them for just shy of 40 million, a 10000% increase in price. Even though people are listing the Headbands for cheaper than that, it's ABP is now 1.2 mil, which is still a 300% increase in price. I did some searching, and it seems like there is A LOT of inconsistencies and grey areas. Some people say that AI is bannable and that an entire guild has been banned for conspiring to control an item's market value. Others say that it's not illegal because Gaia operates as a free market. There is hearsay that the admins and devs admit that it's a grey area. They will ban people who are blatantly conspiring to inflate an item beyond what it's worth, but it's hard for them to tell when someone is buying out an item in order to control the market or if they genuinely need/want to collect it. ...that said, I'mma go report those assholes I found for inflating the Angelic Headbands. That quote was just my emphasis. I didn't take it from somewhere. Anyhow, I think its really best to ask an admin about it. If inflating an item is illegal, is deflating it also illegal?
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:37 pm
Sphyxia That quote was just my emphasis. I didn't take it from somewhere. Anyhow, I think its really best to ask an admin about it. If inflating an item is illegal, is deflating it also illegal? Oh, I see. Well...who do we even ask? Or how to go about it even? Because if it is illegal, we potentially just admitted to market manipulation and risk getting bans.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:43 pm
Yami no Sakura Sphyxia That quote was just my emphasis. I didn't take it from somewhere. Anyhow, I think its really best to ask an admin about it. If inflating an item is illegal, is deflating it also illegal? Oh, I see. Well...who do we even ask? Or how to go about it even? Because if it is illegal, we potentially just admitted to market manipulation and risk getting bans. Nobody knows what we're talking about and this conversation never existed, you know the drill... never...existed.... ninja
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:44 pm
Yami no Sakura Sphyxia That quote was just my emphasis. I didn't take it from somewhere. Anyhow, I think its really best to ask an admin about it. If inflating an item is illegal, is deflating it also illegal? Oh, I see. Well...who do we even ask? Or how to go about it even? Because if it is illegal, we potentially just admitted to market manipulation and risk getting bans. Well, while I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I haven't participated. I could ask.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:47 pm
I think we should just close this operation and remove this thread.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:49 pm
Sphyxia Nobody knows what we're talking about and this conversation never existed, you know the drill... never...existed.... ninja lol, quick! Erase all the evidence! xD Okami Ameras Well, while I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I haven't participated. I could ask. If you could, that would be helpful. =) To be honest, I'm actually considering opening up a thread in the Community Discussion to see what other people think. Maybe someone out there knows.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:00 pm
Yami no Sakura Okami Ameras Well, while I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I haven't participated. I could ask. If you could, that would be helpful. =) To be honest, I'm actually considering opening up a thread in the Community Discussion to see what other people think. Maybe someone out there knows. I just sent a PM to a Exchange moderator. If they don't have an answer for me, I've requested that they direct me to someone who does.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:01 pm
Okami Ameras Yami no Sakura Okami Ameras Well, while I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I haven't participated. I could ask. If you could, that would be helpful. =) To be honest, I'm actually considering opening up a thread in the Community Discussion to see what other people think. Maybe someone out there knows. I just sent a PM to a Exchange moderator. If they don't have an answer for me, I've requested that they direct me to someone who does. Whoot, thanks! =)
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:03 pm
Akatsuki_Girl_Rita I think we should just close this operation and remove this thread. We should definitely stop the operation while we wait for confirmation on the legality of it. Though we can probably keep the thread open in case there's news or an update.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:04 pm
Yami no Sakura Okami Ameras Yami no Sakura Okami Ameras Well, while I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I haven't participated. I could ask. If you could, that would be helpful. =) To be honest, I'm actually considering opening up a thread in the Community Discussion to see what other people think. Maybe someone out there knows. I just sent a PM to a Exchange moderator. If they don't have an answer for me, I've requested that they direct me to someone who does. Whoot, thanks! =) You are welcome. I will get back to you if/when I get an answer.
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:39 pm
i d l eRAT Okami Ameras I'm an alchemist.
Now, I've noticed something; someone has started massively inflating various alchemy components (such as This guy (hes a mule) inflating the prices of the Angelic Headbands so about 300% higher then before).
My question is, is it against the TOS (is it a bannable offense) to play the market in a way that would either highly inflate or highly deflate an item, whether it be done by oneself or with a team?
I'm not expecting you to have an answer, if you do that's great, but if you don't could you perhaps direct me to someone who does? As a general answer: Merely listing your items for a high price is not against any rules, but if you were say mass-organising a large group of people to inflate items, that would be a problem. There's also how it's represented, if you were to tell people an item was worth one million when it had a store price of 10k for example, that would be considered scamming, but just listing your items for high prices is not a problem and is something you can do if you choose to. I hope that clears things up for you a bit and answers your questions. I'll look into the account you linked. Thanks! idleRAT Gaia Online Site Moderator ((Putting spaces in her name so she doesn't get alerted to this guild's presence. ninja ))
This is the answer back from her. She didn't mention anything about the deflation part of my question (either because she didn't notice or she doesn't have a problem with people mass organizing deflation schemes.)
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:32 pm
I guess that helped? ^^; It seems like Sphyxia might be right about the rules on inflation also applying to artificial deflation, especially when it's an organized effort like our own. You could specifically ask about deflation in a reply, though. Oh, and I reported that mule and its associated accounts (his main and the guy in the comment) because it was even more obvious that it was organized and not a one-time thing. The guy bought out all the lower-priced Headbands that came up last night; he bought everything from 900k - 12 mil. Only things left were the 13 and 14 mil Headbands. He also started listing inflated Headbands on his main like an idiot (on top of friending his own mule). I was actually very tempted to confirm my suspicions by baiting him in with some of my own headbands... I wonder if I should PM the mod with a ticket number so that he has a reference and some more evidence. EDIT: I also noticed that guy trying to inflate the Smashing Cities item. Not sure if it's used in Alchemy, though.
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:08 pm
I sent her a quick reply back, and in response the told me she knew about this thread. xp I wasn't technically trying to hide that I knew about it.... ~shrug~
But organizing to deflate things is allowed. So you guys are doing nothing wrong. She said it might be difficult, but it's allowed. 3nodding
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