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 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:46 pm
TvIaMsOqTuHeYz iLadyShira-chan TvIaMsOqTuHeYz confused The only problem I have with that is that once we are born, would we not be discusted with ourselves? I mean, it would be like we've fornicated withourselves from the beginning to the end of time. although there is probably a better word for it. But once you were born you would. but up until then it would be epic. Or suckish. either one. Both actually. but I don't think that God is that mean, or that God would purposly make something as powerful as God's self. Although entertaining, it doesn't fit with God's persona. Who are we to assume the knowledge of the motives of God? God is omnipotent, Human's are not. Thus it is with that knowledge, we can all clearly agree upon, that we don't know God's plan.
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:53 pm
duckmasta TvIaMsOqTuHeYz iLadyShira-chan TvIaMsOqTuHeYz confused The only problem I have with that is that once we are born, would we not be discusted with ourselves? I mean, it would be like we've fornicated withourselves from the beginning to the end of time. although there is probably a better word for it. But once you were born you would. but up until then it would be epic. Or suckish. either one. Both actually. but I don't think that God is that mean, or that God would purposly make something as powerful as God's self. Although entertaining, it doesn't fit with God's persona. Who are we to assume the knowledge of the motives of God? God is omnipotent, Human's are not. Thus it is with that knowledge, we can all clearly agree upon, that we don't know God's plan. i know, but I'm just saying that it seems off that God would create a similar being. I personally like to think as all humans being the peices to a second divinity, not evil, but not good either. and God is piecing it back together because the second broke. I mean, sure God has angels, but they don't seem talkative. and God seems very rapt with the human race. ( although this conflicts with christian belief.
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:56 pm
I agree with Duck completely. He isn't something to analyze or try to understand. If you did understand, your head would explode. I also think of god as a neutral party. Not good or evil in the sense of say murder and protection, nor able to be defined. Neutral just seems to work.
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:23 pm
Wooooowww....I'm honestly shocked. I was very worried since I just worked a nice 11 hour shift that when I came back I would have to close this thread due to things getting out of hand. I'm proud of you guys, really. I knew that we could have a nice healthy discussion on religious topics. That doesn't mean however that I'm not still watching you guys evil
Anyways...i'm back...and there are just so many things I could comment on too much for one post so I'll just leave it at this. If you want to ask or talk to me about anything, just quote me and I'll be here in a jiff XD
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:48 pm
iSix-kun I agree with Duck completely. He isn't something to analyze or try to understand. If you did understand, your head would explode. I also think of god as a neutral party. Not good or evil in the sense of say murder and protection, nor able to be defined. Neutral just seems to work. One of the many reasons that I follow the Jedi Church philosophy is because, the Force is not neutral. The Force is all things, living and non-living. "The will of the force" is not literal in meaning, it is figuratively speaking that the path in which was traveled ultimately led to this conclusion. It does not mean that the Force directly influenced the outcome. I truly enjoy walks through my local park. Why? because I can reach a serene state of mind and thus feel the life present within it. It's one of the reason's I don't really like cities. I actually do my best poetry after a walk through the woods. Anyways, the point I was trying to make is that I view God, Allah, Vishnu, and other gods and goddesses not as a direct force or a neutral force, but as a balanced force, a force in Harmony.
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:12 am
I personally don't like the idea of unquestioning faith. Saying "don't question my motives because you couldn't possibly understand them"almost seems to me like saying "Just shut up. I'm right, your wrong." Using yourself as a reference simply never made sense to me.
God could just be a superior being, superior enough to trick people into thinking he is perfect. Something like the greek/roman gods who were far from perfect. If you can turn wine to water or bring forth hordes of locusts doesn't mean you are a god, but you could easily convince others that is true or that you at least work for a god. It does not necessarily mean you are omnipotent and omnipresent.
Or he could just be a myth, written into a book that passed itself on as fact.
Why would such a being need such trivial things as recognition? Why would such a being have a hard time defeating sin?
Why would such a being not give me a cookie when I want one? (J/K just don't want people taking this too seriously. You've been doing so good so far.))
---
As an addition to my previous statement, I think religion will be with the human race for centuries to come (if we live that long) and isn't in much danger of dying off. Whether it is becoming obsolete people just need something to believe in.
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:50 am
Cobra_X I disagree with the strangely authoritarian decree that all political/religious topics will be banned if this topic gets out of hand, but I digress... (Just don't make me start quoting the Constitution and Freedom of Speech)
On the note of religion though, I must say that I have much to say on the subject, but I won't be able to express it anywhere near as eloquently as some of my favorite Christian Authors...
At the top however, I guess its easiest if I just explain my faith. I'm a Christian, more specifically, a member of a church which belongs to a larger organization called the CCCC, Conservative Congregational Christian Conference. They have a website and everything if you want to read our statements of faith and what not, but sufficed to say, we believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and that the Bible is truth.
I was raised in church, so I've had all of this taught to me since I was very young... but I wouldn't say that I came to a real, life-changing believing faith until I was around 20 years old. Around then, I really started to see how God was working in my life and started to move towards a more Christ-like walk in my life.
@Despair: I think my outlook is somewhat the opposite of yours. I see life without God as absurd to a degree. I mean, I see the world and I see a lot of people without any hope and I wonder how they live, because I know that if I didn't have hope in Christ, I would feel so lost. I'd be curious to understand what you find bothersome about some religious talk...
(Though, I must admit, I'm bothered by what a lot of Christians say sometimes too... especially if it goes against the bible, or if what they are professing doesn't sound truly genuine.) I almost cried, ha ha. I have the same beliefs, but I guess we have a different name. I'm called an Apostolic. I'll probably give a more in debt description and some other stuff that I'm good at.
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:17 pm
So wait, I've got a question for everybody.
Is there a reason for everything, or is everything just randomization?
This question and the facts that I present to you is exactly the reason why their is such diversity between Christians and Athiests.
On one hand, you have God which created everything. And which makes sense, if you take a look at our universe alone, Atheism explains that everything was just a lucky chance, that scientific reactions are the cause of what we have in our universe today. But it would make more sense to believe that that God created everything from the stars to the human body. This can more accurately descibe exactly how delicate and vast, and detailed our universe is. Science explains that even the slightest percetile of a difference and our universe wouldn't exist. It would make much for sense to say that someone weaved our universe together like a blanket. It would take incredible randomization for a blanket to fall together, and tie at the ends like our universe. But not so much if someone had placed it together.
But on the other hand, you have that God doesn't exist and everything is how it is by chance and luck. One might argue that God exists based soley on the fact that someone might be taken to a priest and blessed which then heals any disease or what not. But then you could also argue back with the Placebo effect. The Placebo effect is basically described as this: Say you're in the hospital dying of cancer when their doctor comes in saying scientist just invented a new drug that has been proven to cure cancer and you're going to be the first person to take the drug. The doctor gives you a pill and you take it when you're suppose to. Three days later, you're up and moving around flirting with the nurses, and you're tumors have shrunk by more than half. Eventually you're tumors are all gone, the doctors give you a clean bill of health, and you go on your way to live a long an healthy life. Somewhere down the road, you're watching you're grandchildren play, while you rock on a rocking chair and remembering the good old days when you actually had to drive a car instead of fly one, when a man knocks on your door. It's the doctor that saved you're life, so you invite him in. You get to talking when he drops the bomb there was no such drug back then to cure cancer and all he gave you was a sugar pill. And this isn't an exageration. There have been documented medical cases of this actually happening; that you're brain is so convicted that it literally causes itself to rewrite its DNA or whatever. Then there's also something called Stigma. It's a phenomenom where a scar or a wound randomly appears on your body even though you didn't do anything to cause it. If you show a knife to someone, raise their fear, then blind fold them and cut their wrists with the dull end of a knife while dribbling water on their wrist saying "The blood won't stop" humans who have their senses sealed off can easily succumb to any hints. People will actually die of shock without losing any blood. That's why some people die from dreaming.
So my question is, based off these facts is it randomization or is it planned?
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:56 pm
Kind of both... it's random in that there are other ways life could have developed, but there is also reason involved. Life couldn't really survive if it was any less "perfect"
I hear this argument all the time. We are so perfect, if god didn't make everything then we wouldn't be symmetrical, our brains wouldn't be so powerful etc. Science says that because we evolved, we are as "perect" as we are. I am of course using the word perfect loosely, since I don't believe such a state actually exists.
Science does not really say that everything has happened by chance. If you believe in evolution and natural selection what you are basically believing is that everything that exists now is that way for a very specific reason.
Evolution/natural selection say that originally everything was so basic, that there was no way for things to go wrong. Then things began to mutate, the became fish or whatever. Then the fish began to mutate. The reason I am using the word "mutate" rather than evolve is because not every outcome is favorable. The theory is that when something evolves it goes through countless mutations. The mutations that turn out well for the organism, allowing them to survive better or reproduce better, inevitably results in more babies with that mutation. The unfavorable ones, "birth defects" tend to kill off the organism or make it impossible to reproduce. That is why this process takes so long, So modern birth defects such as down syndrome are recurring attempts by the human race as a whole to evolve. Most of which end terribly. In other words, there are countless other possible ways that life could have developed, none of which being any worse simply because such flaws are not tolerated by nature. This is the way I've understood it.
The Placebo effect and Stigma can be argued either way, I personally believe it means that the human mind is responsible. The brain controls everything in the body, emotions, as well as the body's functions. It even controls how you handle foreign substances. The placebo effect basically tricks the mind into doing what it should have been doing to start with, but for whatever reason wasn't. Unfortunately I don't know much about "stigma" but I imagine it is the exact opposite.
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:00 am
I don't really see your point how the power of the human mind and it's ability to heal the body at times is a particularly Atheist point of view, or how it has any relevance on the existence of God.
However, your description of the universe as a 'quilt' perfectly knitted together by God is very much so what I believe. More then that however, I have seen the difference in life it has made to so many. How from the depths of someone's sorrow, they can find joy. That's a transformation that I feel can only be attained by knowing that God truly exists and that he love us. it gives us hope, which is really a hope which can conquer anything.
The argument between planned and random is a difficult one to make in the realm of God. I believe that when sin entered this world, a lot of things happened which weren't suppose to. Now, god, since he is God, knew what was going to happen... but it still doesn't take away from the effects of Sin on our world. The Jewish way of thinking back in the Bible was that everything happened because someone did something for some reason... For Example:
John 9:1-3, 1."As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2.His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3."Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
...now, is this passage saying that God blinded him so that he could prove that Jesus could heal him miraculously and thus prove himself to be the son of God? No. The verse refers to something much deeper then that... that amidst all the sin of the world and the disease and 'randomness' it brings, God's glory can be revealed to others through his redeeming power. I feel like Sin has introduced a piece of randomness or chaos into what was meant to be a perfect world, but that God is still in control and that he knows what is happening and that everything is happening as planned until the plan is finally finished in the end times.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:50 am
Hikaro_rin I personally don't like the idea of unquestioning faith. Saying "don't question my motives because you couldn't possibly understand them"almost seems to me like saying "Just shut up. I'm right, your wrong." Using yourself as a reference simply never made sense to me. That's not really the point of faith. Not as I've seen at any rate. Faith is an act. The act of believing in something despite there being little to no visible evidence of it being there/happening, and holding that belief, until you finally begin to see the fruit of it. It can take years, or it could be instant, but it's never just an excuse, and it's something you have to trust in completely. Hikaro_rin God could just be a superior being, superior enough to trick people into thinking he is perfect. Something like the greek/roman gods who were far from perfect. If you can turn wine to water or bring forth hordes of locusts doesn't mean you are a god, but you could easily convince others that is true or that you at least work for a god. It does not necessarily mean you are omnipotent and omnipresent. If one is to believe in God enough to say He exists, and the other gods of other religions, don't, then why bother try and dumb him down? If I am to believe in God, I must also believe that what his word says is true. That He created the universe, and has power over all things. If I were to take even one of those things away, say, God can exist, but He's not really omnipotent and omniscient, I would no longer believe in God, but a god of my own creation. Honestly, that's a mistake most churches have made today. They look at the old testament, where God does quite a lot of destroying, and say "Oh, He's changed, He won't do that anymore." and go on about their lives with little to no fear that yes, He very well might still do that. He likely won't be causing earthquakes and erupting volcanoes whenever He wants attention, but a terrible car accident could suffice just as well. Hikaro_rin Or he could just be a myth, written into a book that passed itself on as fact. I would challenge you at this point, to seek out a pentecostal preacher, and have a prolonged discussion on the existence of God. 95% of them claim to have quite a lot of conversations with Him. Hikaro_rin Why would such a being need such trivial things as recognition? Rather simple really. How would you yourself enjoy going to a party, organized by you, for you, and have to sit in a corner and just watch while everyone else enjoyed themselves, and ignored you? I guarantee it would not be fun. You want to join the party, talk to the people, hang out and have some fun with them. It may not be the perfect analogy, but as I have been taught, it's pretty close. Hikaro_rin Why would such a being have a hard time defeating sin? At this point, you have to consider one thing. Is He having a hard time defeating sin, or is He just not doing it? As I understand it, He gave mankind free will. Free will means we are free to do as we please, but it also means we have to deal with our own problems. He won't just jump in and take over, ridding the world of sin in an instant, because that takes away not only free will, but faith. Through faith, we are meant to be cleansed of sin. Not because God came to us and wiped it out, but because we went to him. Hikaro_rin Why would such a being not give me a cookie when I want one? (J/K just don't want people taking this too seriously. You've been doing so good so far.)) How do you know He hasn't? Ever just wanted a cookie soooo badly, and then, found out someone was baking some, or there was one just sitting there, begging to be eaten? The cookie may not just fall out of heaven into your lap, but He may have influenced someone to bake cookies, just for you. That can also be taken as an analogy by the way. Literally too, but also an analogy.
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:20 am
Hinote Tosatsu Hikaro_rin Why would such a being need such trivial things as recognition? Rather simple really. How would you yourself enjoy going to a party, organized by you, for you, and have to sit in a corner and just watch while everyone else enjoyed themselves, and ignored you? I guarantee it would not be fun. You want to join the party, talk to the people, hang out and have some fun with them. It may not be the perfect analogy, but as I have been taught, it's pretty close.
...imagine you had the power to create life, and then, once you did, crafting everything for life to be possible and giving your creations the will to live and do as they wish... then they turn around, flip you the bird and say "F*#! You... you're not real, I hate you, what have you ever done for me?"
That's pretty much what we do to God every day when we live and sin and do not desire to be reconciled with him. You can only imagine how painful that is for him, and yet... he continues to love us.
[By the way, Parents feel this to a degree as well when their children curse them. Until you are a parent yourself... you will never know how truly painful it is to hear your children say something like that to you.]
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:50 am
Cobra_X I don't really see your point how the power of the human mind and it's ability to heal the body at times is a particularly Atheist point of view, or how it has any relevance on the existence of God.
However, your description of the universe as a 'quilt' perfectly knitted together by God is very much so what I believe. More then that however, I have seen the difference in life it has made to so many. How from the depths of someone's sorrow, they can find joy. That's a transformation that I feel can only be attained by knowing that God truly exists and that he love us. it gives us hope, which is really a hope which can conquer anything.
The argument between planned and random is a difficult one to make in the realm of God. I believe that when sin entered this world, a lot of things happened which weren't suppose to. Now, god, since he is God, knew what was going to happen... but it still doesn't take away from the effects of Sin on our world. The Jewish way of thinking back in the Bible was that everything happened because someone did something for some reason... For Example:
John 9:1-3, 1."As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2.His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3."Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
...now, is this passage saying that God blinded him so that he could prove that Jesus could heal him miraculously and thus prove himself to be the son of God? No. The verse refers to something much deeper then that... that amidst all the sin of the world and the disease and 'randomness' it brings, God's glory can be revealed to others through his redeeming power. I feel like Sin has introduced a piece of randomness or chaos into what was meant to be a perfect world, but that God is still in control and that he knows what is happening and that everything is happening as planned until the plan is finally finished in the end times.
I also quiet believe that if God exists (not saying he does, not saying he doesn't) than He would seem like the type of person(That's not the right word) to make the universe, help us out at the beginning, give us a little push, and then let us go at it ourselves, only interfering when we call on him for help. Kinda like swimming. He's the life guard who shows us how to swim, is there for the first few minutes while we swim around in the pool, and then goes back to his post to watch us as we swim, occasionaly throwing us a life line if we feel like we're drowning.
@Hikaro- As for the whole "Hard time defeating sin" I know the answer to that. It's because sin was already defeated at Calvary. The only reason things like murdering, stealing, ext ect aka "sin" still exist in this world is because you can not have a left without a right, and up without a down, or a good without an evil.
As for the cookie, remember the Lord of the Rings. It was a book written by a Christian man, with analogies throughout the entire story citing the Bible and Christianity. (Don't believe me? Google it) Remember Gandalf? I don't know if this is true, but I believe that he may in some way represent God or Jesus. That being said, there was something he said in the first movie that will describe perfectly why you haven't gotten you're cookie yet. "A wizard is never early, nor is he ever late. He arrives precisely when he means to." It's the same with God. Humans are naturally impatient. When they want something, they want it now. Not later. So when God deems it not the right time for you to have a cookie because maybe you haven't eaten your vegetables yet, he holds onto the cookie for you. You have to remember the Chronicles or Narnia. Aslan the lion was a dirrect representation of God. There's also a saying in there: "He's not a tame lion." So it is the same with God.
Hope that helped?
(I want a cookie now. emo )
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:12 am
iLadyShira-chan The argument about the body healing itself, is one I've heard before by athiests; that it wasn't God's "power" but rather the power of the human mind.
I mean, just a few of the examples:
- The Blind Man who could suddenly see. (Placebo pills do not magical restore a person's eyesight.)
- The lame man, who had for his entire life, lay by the pool, suddenly getting up and walking away.
- The cripple who was able to reach out his head.
...and let's not forget the three or four occasions when Jesus brought people back from the dead. Placebo effect had nothing to do with these cases, or rather, you would be HARD PRESSED to say the power of the mind was the reason why they were healed (especially with the dead people).iLadyShira-chan I also quiet believe that if God exists (not saying he does, not saying he doesn't) than He would seem like the type of person(That's not the right word) to make the universe, help us out at the beginning, give us a little push, and then let us go at it ourselves, only interfering when we call on him for help. Kinda like swimming. He's the life guard who shows us how to swim, is there for the first few minutes while we swim around in the pool, and then goes back to his post to watch us as we swim, occasionaly throwing us a life line if we feel like we're drowning.
God led his people through the desert by cloud during the day and fire by night. He fed them by raining manna and quall from the heavens. He is an active God, constantly working in the lives of his people. To say that he 'occasionally' throws us a life line when we are drowning is DRASTICALLY underestimating how God works in the lives of Christians and ALL people.iLadyShira-chan @Hikaro- As for the whole "Hard time defeating sin" I know the answer to that. It's because sin was already defeated at Calvary. The only reason things like murdering, stealing, ext ect aka "sin" still exist in this world is because you can not have a left without a right, and up without a down, or a good without an evil.
That said... Sin is the reason for things like Murders, stealing, etc... but it is only because we are still in a fallen world, waiting for it to be redeemed. It doesn't have anything to do with being 'required' as part of a cosmic balancing act.
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:24 am
Cobra_X iLadyShira-chan The argument about the body healing itself, is one I've heard before by athiests; that it wasn't God's "power" but rather the power of the human mind.
I mean, just a few of the examples:
- The Blind Man who could suddenly see. (Placebo pills do not magical restore a person's eyesight.)
- The lame man, who had for his entire life, lay by the pool, suddenly getting up and walking away.
- The cripple who was able to reach out his head.
...and let's not forget the three or four occasions when Jesus brought people back from the dead. Placebo effect had nothing to do with these cases, or rather, you would be HARD PRESSED to say the power of the mind was the reason why they were healed (especially with the dead people).No offense, but you are essentially using the bible to prove the bible. since what is more or less the "target" of doubt in this conversation, it is not really a good reference. you would be hard pressed to prove that any such resurrections really happened. Shay is right in that if god exists and the holy books are true, then he/she/it is taking a less direct approach than he did in ancient times. Even so, it is arguable that he is/isn't helping, my personal opinion being that if he is real, then he is helping. That is impossible to prove either way of course, unless god were to pop in and say "hey guys I'm real BTW". My main annoyance with christianity, is the idea that you aren't good enough for heaven if you don't believe in him/her/it. While I suppose theres small consolation that good-doers aren't damned to hell. It doesn't make sense that people such as Gandhi, arguably the greatest "good-doer" that can be proven to have existed, wouldn't be worthy of going to heaven while a murderer could stand a chance if he only prayed to god and asked forgiveness. I dont think all branches of christianity really believe this, just the more hardcore ones, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I might just say this in all of my posts, but I am absolutely astounded that this is going so well/not developing into an argument.
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