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 Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:19 pm
Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective That was unnecessarily harsh. :/ I'll admit that my statement about the dictionary was unsupported, but I can't think of a source because it seems so obviously true to me. The *facedesk* was for you assuming English wasn't my first language. Here's a scenario to illustrate what we mean by etiquette. A host plans a formal dinner and invites a few teenagers. The teenagers have not learned etiquette (or they just don't care). They eat the steak with their fingers, they chew with their mouths open, and they don't wait to eat until everyone has been served. Now, what they did wasn't wrong, per se, but it made other people uncomfortable, and the guests spent more time being disgusted by their behavior than by enjoying their chat over dinner. It would have been better to be polite. Suppose that those teenagers had some kind of mental disorder that impaired their ability to learn societal rules, or they were foreigners. They might be trying their best, but they just can't. In this instance, their poor manners would be excusable. On the other hand, if they had been disregarding the rules simply because they could or it was easier for them than using the proper utensils, most people would label them rude and do their best to ignore them. It's not a perfect simile, but do you see the comparisons I'm trying to make here, or should I do better to spell them out? I don't see how it's obviously true. How does communication become easier just because a dictionary came out? What people are disgusted at or not varies between individuals. Also the rules of etiquette are arbitrary, thus who is rude is arbitrary. There's no legitimate reason to say someone is doing something bad because they didn't follow your rules. If you cannot prove they're doing something bad, then what right do you have to demand them stop doing it? It all boils down to your appeasement, your selfishness, that includes others like you in the forum. I agree that etiquette is a bit arbitrary at times, but it provides a norm for what people are comfortable with. If you can't handle that, and you would rather challenge society's rules constantly, feel free. I'll be the one sitting at my place, preferring to make my statements in a way that people will find easier to accept--because I'm not already fighting them on another issue: etiquette. I still fail to see how my preference makes me and others selfish. I'm not "challenging" society's rules, nor can I not handle it. I can handle it, but I prefer to type the way I like. Typing the way you like is in no way challenging a society's rules, it isn't a manifesto that the rules should be change. Nor is typing the way you want indicative of what you can or cannot handle, so stop that nonsensical reasoning. No one is fighting etquette, there is disregard for it, and that's simply because some enjoy doing what is contrary to what is etiquette. Nothing is wrong with enjoying what you're doing as long as you're not harming anyone. There's nothing wrong with your preference, yet demanding that others must type the way you want them to just so you're more comfortable with it, is to disregard the others autonomy completely. And that is selfish. Are you finally done making strawmens on my position?
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:50 pm
Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective That was unnecessarily harsh. :/ I'll admit that my statement about the dictionary was unsupported, but I can't think of a source because it seems so obviously true to me. The *facedesk* was for you assuming English wasn't my first language. Here's a scenario to illustrate what we mean by etiquette. A host plans a formal dinner and invites a few teenagers. The teenagers have not learned etiquette (or they just don't care). They eat the steak with their fingers, they chew with their mouths open, and they don't wait to eat until everyone has been served. Now, what they did wasn't wrong, per se, but it made other people uncomfortable, and the guests spent more time being disgusted by their behavior than by enjoying their chat over dinner. It would have been better to be polite. Suppose that those teenagers had some kind of mental disorder that impaired their ability to learn societal rules, or they were foreigners. They might be trying their best, but they just can't. In this instance, their poor manners would be excusable. On the other hand, if they had been disregarding the rules simply because they could or it was easier for them than using the proper utensils, most people would label them rude and do their best to ignore them. It's not a perfect simile, but do you see the comparisons I'm trying to make here, or should I do better to spell them out? I don't see how it's obviously true. How does communication become easier just because a dictionary came out? What people are disgusted at or not varies between individuals. Also the rules of etiquette are arbitrary, thus who is rude is arbitrary. There's no legitimate reason to say someone is doing something bad because they didn't follow your rules. If you cannot prove they're doing something bad, then what right do you have to demand them stop doing it? It all boils down to your appeasement, your selfishness, that includes others like you in the forum. I agree that etiquette is a bit arbitrary at times, but it provides a norm for what people are comfortable with. If you can't handle that, and you would rather challenge society's rules constantly, feel free. I'll be the one sitting at my place, preferring to make my statements in a way that people will find easier to accept--because I'm not already fighting them on another issue: etiquette. I still fail to see how my preference makes me and others selfish. I'm not "challenging" society's rules, nor can I not handle it. I can handle it, but I prefer to type the way I like. Typing the way you like is in no way challenging a society's rules, it isn't a manifesto that the rules should be change. Nor is typing the way you want indicative of what you can or cannot handle, so stop that nonsensical reasoning. No one is fighting etquette, there is disregard for it, and that's simply because some enjoy doing what is contrary to what is etiquette. Nothing is wrong with enjoying what you're doing as long as you're not harming anyone. There's nothing wrong with your preference, yet demanding that others must type the way you want them to just so you're more comfortable with it, is to disregard the others autonomy completely. And that is selfish. Are you finally done making strawmens on my position? I am not forcing people to type a certain way. If they want their opinions to be heard, they are the ones who must initiate the change. Chatspeak is FINE is informal discussions, but it is not appropriate for a formal debate thread. End of story. Now, would it be selfish for me to ask that someone wear clothes in my presence because it makes me feel more comfortable?
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:09 pm
Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective That was unnecessarily harsh. :/ I'll admit that my statement about the dictionary was unsupported, but I can't think of a source because it seems so obviously true to me. The *facedesk* was for you assuming English wasn't my first language. Here's a scenario to illustrate what we mean by etiquette. A host plans a formal dinner and invites a few teenagers. The teenagers have not learned etiquette (or they just don't care). They eat the steak with their fingers, they chew with their mouths open, and they don't wait to eat until everyone has been served. Now, what they did wasn't wrong, per se, but it made other people uncomfortable, and the guests spent more time being disgusted by their behavior than by enjoying their chat over dinner. It would have been better to be polite. Suppose that those teenagers had some kind of mental disorder that impaired their ability to learn societal rules, or they were foreigners. They might be trying their best, but they just can't. In this instance, their poor manners would be excusable. On the other hand, if they had been disregarding the rules simply because they could or it was easier for them than using the proper utensils, most people would label them rude and do their best to ignore them. It's not a perfect simile, but do you see the comparisons I'm trying to make here, or should I do better to spell them out? I don't see how it's obviously true. How does communication become easier just because a dictionary came out? What people are disgusted at or not varies between individuals. Also the rules of etiquette are arbitrary, thus who is rude is arbitrary. There's no legitimate reason to say someone is doing something bad because they didn't follow your rules. If you cannot prove they're doing something bad, then what right do you have to demand them stop doing it? It all boils down to your appeasement, your selfishness, that includes others like you in the forum. I agree that etiquette is a bit arbitrary at times, but it provides a norm for what people are comfortable with. If you can't handle that, and you would rather challenge society's rules constantly, feel free. I'll be the one sitting at my place, preferring to make my statements in a way that people will find easier to accept--because I'm not already fighting them on another issue: etiquette. I still fail to see how my preference makes me and others selfish. I'm not "challenging" society's rules, nor can I not handle it. I can handle it, but I prefer to type the way I like. Typing the way you like is in no way challenging a society's rules, it isn't a manifesto that the rules should be change. Nor is typing the way you want indicative of what you can or cannot handle, so stop that nonsensical reasoning. No one is fighting etquette, there is disregard for it, and that's simply because some enjoy doing what is contrary to what is etiquette. Nothing is wrong with enjoying what you're doing as long as you're not harming anyone. There's nothing wrong with your preference, yet demanding that others must type the way you want them to just so you're more comfortable with it, is to disregard the others autonomy completely. And that is selfish. Are you finally done making strawmens on my position? If that is what you want to do then fine. Type in chatspeak. You are right, that you have the prerogative to type any way you like, no one is stopping you. Yet if you decide to do so when others might feel it is not appropriate then be ready for them to ignore you and possible even tell you to please be literate, and the definition they would be referring to is "polished and well-spoken". Yet they would not be any more in the wrong for feeling a bit disrespected for you typing in that manner when they have asked for literate discussion than you feeling "discriminated" for being asked to type as the majority are doing. Actually they would have more right than you because you would have entered their conversation with the understanding that they wanted a "polished" discussion. I haven't seen any "new" argument from the opposing side, other than those of us who do not appreciate chatspeak are discriminatory, haters, and have no valid standing for wanting a readable conversation. It has been said that chatspeak is as easy to read as the traditional alphabetical spellings, and should be required learning for those who are trying to learn English in the first place. It has also been implied that etiquette is useless, and people who do try to be polite and considerate are wasting time... I am can not agree to these assumptions and argument, and I will not, so I will leave you to your reasoning.
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:16 pm
Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective That was unnecessarily harsh. :/ I'll admit that my statement about the dictionary was unsupported, but I can't think of a source because it seems so obviously true to me. The *facedesk* was for you assuming English wasn't my first language. Here's a scenario to illustrate what we mean by etiquette. A host plans a formal dinner and invites a few teenagers. The teenagers have not learned etiquette (or they just don't care). They eat the steak with their fingers, they chew with their mouths open, and they don't wait to eat until everyone has been served. Now, what they did wasn't wrong, per se, but it made other people uncomfortable, and the guests spent more time being disgusted by their behavior than by enjoying their chat over dinner. It would have been better to be polite. Suppose that those teenagers had some kind of mental disorder that impaired their ability to learn societal rules, or they were foreigners. They might be trying their best, but they just can't. In this instance, their poor manners would be excusable. On the other hand, if they had been disregarding the rules simply because they could or it was easier for them than using the proper utensils, most people would label them rude and do their best to ignore them. It's not a perfect simile, but do you see the comparisons I'm trying to make here, or should I do better to spell them out? I don't see how it's obviously true. How does communication become easier just because a dictionary came out? What people are disgusted at or not varies between individuals. Also the rules of etiquette are arbitrary, thus who is rude is arbitrary. There's no legitimate reason to say someone is doing something bad because they didn't follow your rules. If you cannot prove they're doing something bad, then what right do you have to demand them stop doing it? It all boils down to your appeasement, your selfishness, that includes others like you in the forum. I agree that etiquette is a bit arbitrary at times, but it provides a norm for what people are comfortable with. If you can't handle that, and you would rather challenge society's rules constantly, feel free. I'll be the one sitting at my place, preferring to make my statements in a way that people will find easier to accept--because I'm not already fighting them on another issue: etiquette. I still fail to see how my preference makes me and others selfish. I'm not "challenging" society's rules, nor can I not handle it. I can handle it, but I prefer to type the way I like. Typing the way you like is in no way challenging a society's rules, it isn't a manifesto that the rules should be change. Nor is typing the way you want indicative of what you can or cannot handle, so stop that nonsensical reasoning. No one is fighting etquette, there is disregard for it, and that's simply because some enjoy doing what is contrary to what is etiquette. Nothing is wrong with enjoying what you're doing as long as you're not harming anyone. There's nothing wrong with your preference, yet demanding that others must type the way you want them to just so you're more comfortable with it, is to disregard the others autonomy completely. And that is selfish. Are you finally done making strawmens on my position? I am not forcing people to type a certain way. If they want their opinions to be heard, they are the ones who must initiate the change. Chatspeak is FINE is informal discussions, but it is not appropriate for a formal debate thread. End of story. Now, would it be selfish for me to ask that someone wear clothes in my presence because it makes me feel more comfortable? You're making an assumption that the person would not be heard if they speak in chatspeak, that's complete nonsense. You don't know that, nor can you prove that would be the case. Stop making such nonsensical suggestions. It is your decision whether you're willing to hear them out or not, not theirs. Since it is your decision it will vary between individuals. How is it inappropriate in formal debate threads? I would be absolutely fine with someone coming in here talking in chatspeak to write out their arguments. Stop making bald faced assertions and prove why it is necessarily inappropriate, I don't find it inappropriate so if it were necessarily inappropriate I would think it is. All you're doing is taking unetiquette extremes in the context of our society and saying "look it's inappropriate, therefore I'm not being selfish in demanding he stop." In other cultures walking around naked in other peoples presence is fine, besides that taking away our laws what is he doing that is harming you? Beyond what you've psychologically engrained yourself to be uncomfortable with, nothing. You could just walk away from the person, but instead you demand him to put clothes on simply because you two are in close proximity. That's illogical and selfish, i'm simply being descriptive of your character. You're disregarding his autonomy to meet the ends of your comfortableness, you are selfish. These anecdotal stories prove absolutely nothing, objectively prove to me you're not being selfish. Otherwise I've heard enough anecdotes.
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:33 pm
*throws hands up in the air*
I refuse to debate with you any more. I'm not gaining anything from this, and you aren't getting any less incensed. I maintain my position that while I would prefer them to type in standard English, it is their decision to make.
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:45 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective Mythsysizer Eccentric Detective That was unnecessarily harsh. :/ I'll admit that my statement about the dictionary was unsupported, but I can't think of a source because it seems so obviously true to me. The *facedesk* was for you assuming English wasn't my first language. Here's a scenario to illustrate what we mean by etiquette. A host plans a formal dinner and invites a few teenagers. The teenagers have not learned etiquette (or they just don't care). They eat the steak with their fingers, they chew with their mouths open, and they don't wait to eat until everyone has been served. Now, what they did wasn't wrong, per se, but it made other people uncomfortable, and the guests spent more time being disgusted by their behavior than by enjoying their chat over dinner. It would have been better to be polite. Suppose that those teenagers had some kind of mental disorder that impaired their ability to learn societal rules, or they were foreigners. They might be trying their best, but they just can't. In this instance, their poor manners would be excusable. On the other hand, if they had been disregarding the rules simply because they could or it was easier for them than using the proper utensils, most people would label them rude and do their best to ignore them. It's not a perfect simile, but do you see the comparisons I'm trying to make here, or should I do better to spell them out? I don't see how it's obviously true. How does communication become easier just because a dictionary came out? What people are disgusted at or not varies between individuals. Also the rules of etiquette are arbitrary, thus who is rude is arbitrary. There's no legitimate reason to say someone is doing something bad because they didn't follow your rules. If you cannot prove they're doing something bad, then what right do you have to demand them stop doing it? It all boils down to your appeasement, your selfishness, that includes others like you in the forum. I agree that etiquette is a bit arbitrary at times, but it provides a norm for what people are comfortable with. If you can't handle that, and you would rather challenge society's rules constantly, feel free. I'll be the one sitting at my place, preferring to make my statements in a way that people will find easier to accept--because I'm not already fighting them on another issue: etiquette. I still fail to see how my preference makes me and others selfish. I'm not "challenging" society's rules, nor can I not handle it. I can handle it, but I prefer to type the way I like. Typing the way you like is in no way challenging a society's rules, it isn't a manifesto that the rules should be change. Nor is typing the way you want indicative of what you can or cannot handle, so stop that nonsensical reasoning. No one is fighting etquette, there is disregard for it, and that's simply because some enjoy doing what is contrary to what is etiquette. Nothing is wrong with enjoying what you're doing as long as you're not harming anyone. There's nothing wrong with your preference, yet demanding that others must type the way you want them to just so you're more comfortable with it, is to disregard the others autonomy completely. And that is selfish. Are you finally done making strawmens on my position? If that is what you want to do then fine. Type in chatspeak. You are right, that you have the prerogative to type any way you like, no one is stopping you. Yet if you decide to do so when others might feel it is not appropriate then be ready for them to ignore you and possible even tell you to please be literate, and the definition they would be referring to is "polished and well-spoken". Yet they would not be any more in the wrong for feeling a bit disrespected for you typing in that manner when they have asked for literate discussion than you feeling "discriminated" for being asked to type as the majority are doing. Actually they would have more right than you because you would have entered their conversation with the understanding that they wanted a "polished" discussion. I haven't seen any "new" argument from the opposing side, other than those of us who do not appreciate chatspeak are discriminatory, haters, and have no valid standing for wanting a readable conversation. I am can not agree to these assumptions and argument, and I will not, so I will leave you to your reasoning. You ask someone to type your way, they say they like to type another way, therefore you feel disrespected because they wouldn't type the way you like. This is just silly, how could you feel disrespected for someone having a different preference? you're just stretching how easily you can be offended now. So they have more right to the way I type because there are more of them and they just want it? How unreasonable can you get? How is there want more valid and more necessary than my own? Prove to me that your wants supercede my own. Otherwise this nonsense that I must type your way because a lot of people said so and they really want it, is completely unfounded. I never said that you could not want a readable conversation, I said you have no right to demand it. What is so difficult about reading chatspeak? I think you've grossly aggrandized whatever problem you find with it. It has been said that chatspeak is as easy to read as the traditional alphabetical spellings, and should be required learning for those who are trying to learn English in the first place.It has also been implied that etiquette is useless, and people who do try to be polite and considerate are wasting time...Where was it said that chatspeak is as easy to read as the traditional alphabetical spellings? Also you and your group have never answered what is so difficult to understand about it. No one said it should be required to learn for those who are trying to learn english in the first place. No one implied etiquette is useless, I said it was arbitrary, you're welcome to call anyone who isn't etiquette rude if you want to. Yet it doesn't prove they are doing anything bad, or that someone must necessarily follow etiquette simply because it is etiquette, i consider doing what you like as long as it doesn't harm anyone a good reason to be contrary to etiquette. Also if etiquette means to be polite, then I'm of the position you're not showing good etiquette if you demand that someone not speak in CS. Etiquette is good for being polite surely, but it isn't a rulebook which necessitates how you ought to live your life or which decision you ought to take, as you seem to think it is. I don't see how you could be polite or considerate if you're infringing on the rights of someone who is causing no harm whatsoever. It's a absolute laugh really. But go ahead and arbitrarly call yourself polite and considerate, whatever gets your inconsiderate and impolite conscious to sleep. I can see you don't agree, I can also see that you have yet to provide any reasonable argument against them. Please come back if you ever do, have a nice day.
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:51 pm
Eccentric Detective *throws hands up in the air* I refuse to debate with you any more. I'm not gaining anything from this, and you aren't getting any less incensed. I maintain my position that while I would prefer them to type in standard English, it is their decision to make.
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