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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:20 pm
Ah, good to be back in this thread. *looks at what's been posted since my last absence* . . . Wow. 'Bait, you are amazing. That example alone shows what God can do in our lives. I thought I had popularity problems. Technically not problems, because I could care less how popular I am, but I get trouble from classmates. Mainly upperclassmen (sophomores who will be juniors next year) are the culprits, and they think they're tough and B.A. and all that. I think they're fooling themselves; why "sagging" and putting others down for a joke makes you tough is beyond me, but it's what they think, and I can't change that.
Literally cannot. I've tried talking. I've even fought people over it. Physically. In the middle of that fight, I realized how wrong it was and walked away. The message to the entire school was that I "pussed out". I literally cannot change what they think, so I've stopped trying.
When someone insults me, I keep my mouth shut, because I don't know what's going to fly out of my mouth if I open it. I've learned that, because they've fooled themselves into thinking they're Christian, they think they've got it made. I've quoted Scripture to no avail. (!!) I'm one of the least popular people in school.
Is my self-esteem an issue? It was once. I didn't cut myself, I didn't do drugs. I have an anxiety disorder, and what the doctor thinks is (using my own words here) borderline ADHD. I literally pull my hair out when I get stressed out or sad. I catch crap for it all the time.
And God has helped me through it. Not one time has my self esteem been an issue since I came back to God. And I can't convince others the same, because they think they're Christian too.
So can we lie to ourselves? Heck yeah. Half the people I know do it.
Hehe. Went a little overboard there. I just needed to get that out of my system. This has nothing on 'Bait's story, but it's my life in a nutshell. Albiet a four-paragraph nutshell, but still, a nutshell!
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:01 pm
It's only natural to develop an ethos as you grow up. You have your set of morals that you choose to live by, and some people choose to have a set of morals that involve only doing what's right for them; that, of course, is immorality.
Christians should have the morals that are set up by God, which are derived from His Word. We should all try to be Christ-like. We won't always do the right thing, but we should try to do it. We shouldn't compromise that.
As for the whole self-image/self-worth thing...eh, little too much psychology for my taste. If other people think 'Bait is a good teacher, but he thinks he is just an ok teacher...that's fine, I don't think it should be a big deal. I have never been a student of his, so I can't say either way, but I don't think it has anything to do with "he's lying to himself."
I agree with what Tryan said. Some things just are.
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:02 am
Xiterrose It's only natural to develop an ethos as you grow up. You have your set of morals that you choose to live by, and some people choose to have a set of morals that involve only doing what's right for them; that, of course, is immorality. Christians should have the morals that are set up by God, which are derived from His Word. We should all try to be Christ-like. We won't always do the right thing, but we should try to do it. We shouldn't compromise that. As for the whole self-image/self-worth thing...eh, little too much psychology for my taste. If other people think 'Bait is a good teacher, but he thinks he is just an ok teacher...that's fine, I don't think it should be a big deal. I have never been a student of his, so I can't say either way, but I don't think it has anything to do with "he's lying to himself." I agree with what Tryan said. Some things just are.
What am I missing?
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:58 am
That part isn't necessarily about Christian ethics.
Most things in life we have no control over, that may or may not directly affect us. We just have to take things as they come, and we all have to make choices based on that.
I think you're trying to look into it a little too much.
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:41 am
stare I'm startin' to get the impression that this whole thread was just a setup. stare
Ninja ... consider yourself fortunate. If they're not throwing things (like bricks) at you, that means they tolerate you ... maybe enough to listen, if you tell them the right way.
Tryan ... now maybe you understand why I could never understand why I was so popular in the KSF. The level of inactivity we've got in OSHE now is disappointing, but at least it's something I'm familiar with.
Xi ... I have to agree with Deidra, that the lies we believe are a moral issue ... though I tend to think it's not as cut-and-dried as she does. On the other hand, I gotta say that she's run it so far into the ground that she's struck oil.
Okay, Deidra ... is it just conceivably possible that my standard of a "great teacher" is just a wee bit higher than yours? Or even that my definition of "teacher" is a tad different?
==========
But laying that aside for the moment ... I still don't understand the concept of "self-worth". To me, all human beings have value (with the possible exception of Paris Hilton and her ilk), and all of us are of equal value. So when I hear you talk about "self-worth", I literally have no idea, no concept, no comprehension, no clue what you're talking about.
I'm not asking you to explain it to me; I'm not sure you can. God is no respecter of persons, we all know ... and you keep telling us to use His standards instead of our own. By my understanding of His standards ... we're all of equal value.
Besides, "value" implies a numeric scale with only a single variable. Our usefulness is based on many variables -- so many that only God can really sort them out. And even then, He may consider us (hypothetically speaking) to be quite useful in one area, average in another, and totally disposable in a third -- depending on our skills and the situations.
So, please ... scream stop saying self-worth! It's a meaningless phrase! scream
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:38 am
Xiterrose That part isn't necessarily about Christian ethics. Most things in life we have no control over, that may or may not directly affect us. We just have to take things as they come, and we all have to make choices based on that. I think you're trying to look into it a little too much.
I don't get it....if they aren't abut Christian Ethics why are you and Tyran posting about them?
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:57 am
Quote:
I don't get it....if they aren't abut Christian Ethics why are you and Tyran posting about them? That is precicely what I was attmpting to ask you without assuming that my interpretation of the topic (that it has nothing to do with ethics) was correct. I wanted to know how you saw things. Did I ever say that we don't or can't lie to ourselves? No. In fact, I believe at an earlier point I mentioned that we do lie to ourselves. I do believe acts of deceit are wrong, I was simply trying to clarify what you intended for us to be discussing. "What about self-image and self-esteem?" Isn't exactly a complete or terribly specific sentence. So, what about it? Self-image is not a lie. Self-esteem is not a lie. They are our opinions about ourselves, and they are our feelings about ourselves. These are influenced by our experiences - some of which are full of truth, some of which are full of deceit, and some of which are simply events. I don't think anyone would argue that. So, what about it? What exactly are you trying to ask? I am unclear. I am inclined to agree with Xi, I think you are thinking about what I said too hard - looking for hidden meaning where there was none. Or perhaps my meaning was unclear. As for self-worth - it doesn't matter what we think or believe about that. Unless I'm mistaken, we've already established we should be living by God's word, and self-worth is a measuring stick that, by definition, we have created , and has nothing to do with God. The term "self-worth" is similar in some respects to self-esteem, but I don't believe they are synonimous, and it certainly isn't the same as "self-image." These are completely different concepts, and I think we need to be aware of the words we use because, as my captain used to always tell us, "Words have meaning. Say what you mean." 'Bait - I have to admit, I was shocked. It does explain some things. I believe you were popular because you were involved, but more importantly, because you are kind - which I would like to differentiate from being 'nice' by saying a 'nice' person will let you walk around looking like a fool and say you look fine but a 'kind' person will say "Hey! You're messed up, go fix yourself." =P
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:20 am
Dragonbait stare I'm startin' to get the impression that this whole thread was just a setup. stare ??????? If you are speaking to me I take offense. That would be dirty pool and I don't play that game smile Ninja ... consider yourself fortunate. If they're not throwing things (like bricks) at you, that means they tolerate you ... maybe enough to listen, if you tell them the right way. Tryan ... now maybe you understand why I could never understand why I was so popular in the KSF. The level of inactivity we've got in OSHE now is disappointing, but at least it's something I'm familiar with. Xi ... I have to agree with Deidra, that the lies we believe are a moral issue ... though I tend to think it's not as cut-and-dried as she does. On the other hand, I gotta say that she's run it so far into the ground that she's struck oil. Is it pick on Deidra day? smile Okay, Deidra ... is it just conceivably possible that my standard of a "great teacher" is just a wee bit higher than yours? Or even that my definition of "teacher" is a tad different? You might have been able to convince me with that lame remark had you not already told me that atleast 4 others including your Father had told you the same thing, my friend. smile ========== But laying that aside for the moment ... I still don't understand the concept of "self-worth". To me, all human beings have value (with the possible exception of Paris Hilton and her ilk), and all of us are of equal value. So when I hear you talk about "self-worth", I literally have no idea, no concept, no comprehension, no clue what you're talking about. I'm not asking you to explain it to me; I'm not sure you can. God is no respecter of persons, we all know ... and you keep telling us to use His standards instead of our own. By my understanding of His standards ... we're all of equal value. Besides, "value" implies a numeric scale with only a single variable. Our usefulness is based on many variables -- so many that only God can really sort them out. And even then, He may consider us (hypothetically speaking) to be quite useful in one area, average in another, and totally disposable in a third -- depending on our skills and the situations. So, please ... scream stop saying self-worth! It's a meaningless phrase! scream
The questions I am trying to ask are: can we possibly see ourselves as so damaged or unworthy (false inmages of ourselves) that we have erected unseen barriers in our life, that seperate us (atleast in part) from receiving the absolute fullness of God's love, and experiencing everything that He has and wants for us? And can these barriers cause us such insecurity, or doubt in ourselves and our abilities, that we are unable to operate in our gifts to the fullest, or minister to others as we should?
For instance, should an individual convince themselves that they are not worthy of God's love...wouldn't it also follow that they would believe that they were unworthy of answered prayer?
Rationally all of us know that we are unworthy except for the Blood of Jesus. But some people believe (self deception, self worth, whatever you want to call it) that there are areas of their lives that are so vile that they cant even bring them to the cross, let alone be forgiven of them. Others cannot believe that God could love them...after all no one else ever has.
I'm trying to ask if we as Christians can still have those areas of "self-deception" hidden away (maybe even from ourselves) that prevent us from walking in the fullness of God and His Spirit.
Intellectually we all say we don't have those areas (areas we are holding back from God) but is it possible that we are lying to ourselves (thus a false self-image)?
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:46 pm
Deidra Diamonds Dragonbait stare I'm startin' to get the impression that this whole thread was just a setup. stare ??????? If you are speaking to me I take offense. That would be dirty pool and I don't play that game smile Ninja ... consider yourself fortunate. If they're not throwing things (like bricks) at you, that means they tolerate you ... maybe enough to listen, if you tell them the right way. Tryan ... now maybe you understand why I could never understand why I was so popular in the KSF. The level of inactivity we've got in OSHE now is disappointing, but at least it's something I'm familiar with. Xi ... I have to agree with Deidra, that the lies we believe are a moral issue ... though I tend to think it's not as cut-and-dried as she does. On the other hand, I gotta say that she's run it so far into the ground that she's struck oil. Is it pick on Deidra day? smile Okay, Deidra ... is it just conceivably possible that my standard of a "great teacher" is just a wee bit higher than yours? Or even that my definition of "teacher" is a tad different? You might have been able to convince me with that lame remark had you not already told me that atleast 4 others including your Father had told you the same thing, my friend. smile ========== But laying that aside for the moment ... I still don't understand the concept of "self-worth". To me, all human beings have value (with the possible exception of Paris Hilton and her ilk), and all of us are of equal value. So when I hear you talk about "self-worth", I literally have no idea, no concept, no comprehension, no clue what you're talking about. I'm not asking you to explain it to me; I'm not sure you can. God is no respecter of persons, we all know ... and you keep telling us to use His standards instead of our own. By my understanding of His standards ... we're all of equal value. Besides, "value" implies a numeric scale with only a single variable. Our usefulness is based on many variables -- so many that only God can really sort them out. And even then, He may consider us (hypothetically speaking) to be quite useful in one area, average in another, and totally disposable in a third -- depending on our skills and the situations. So, please ... scream stop saying self-worth! It's a meaningless phrase! scream
The questions I am trying to ask are: can we possibly see ourselves as so damaged or unworthy (false inmages of ourselves) that we have erected unseen barriers in our life, that seperate us (atleast in part) from receiving the absolute fullness of God's love, and experiencing everything that He has and wants for us? And can these barriers cause us such insecurity, or doubt in ourselves and our abilities, that we are unable to operate in our gifts to the fullest, or minister to others as we should?
For instance, should an individual convince themselves that they are not worthy of God's love...wouldn't it also follow that they would believe that they were unworthy of answered prayer?
Rationally all of us know that we are unworthy except for the Blood of Jesus. But some people believe (self deception, self worth, whatever you want to call it) that there are areas of their lives that are so vile that they cant even bring them to the cross, let alone be forgiven of them. Others cannot believe that God could love them...after all no one else ever has.
I'm trying to ask if we as Christians can still have those areas of "self-deception" hidden away (maybe even from ourselves) that prevent us from walking in the fullness of God and His Spirit.
Intellectually we all say we don't have those areas (areas we are holding back from God) but is it possible that we are lying to ourselves (thus a false self-image)?hiya Deidra! razz (Deidra recently told me she missed me posting in this Guild. wasn't that nice of her? razz ) just responding to your last post here - this sounds like a Pride issue or a False Humility thing. but i sort of understand what you're saying anyhow. someone could certainly feel they're unworthy or undeserving, and its actually true. indeed we are unworthy and if we got what we deserved it would be hell. but take for instance someone who has been called to preach or pastor and then they never obeyed that calling and claimed they just didnt feel worthy - well sure - noone is worthy, but disobedience is disobedience and that normally stems from pride. i apologize if my response appears as tho i haven't taken the time to read each page of this thread - because i haven't - redface sorry! heart
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:32 pm
SARL0 Deidra Diamonds Dragonbait stare I'm startin' to get the impression that this whole thread was just a setup. stare ??????? If you are speaking to me I take offense. That would be dirty pool and I don't play that game smile Ninja ... consider yourself fortunate. If they're not throwing things (like bricks) at you, that means they tolerate you ... maybe enough to listen, if you tell them the right way. Tryan ... now maybe you understand why I could never understand why I was so popular in the KSF. The level of inactivity we've got in OSHE now is disappointing, but at least it's something I'm familiar with. Xi ... I have to agree with Deidra, that the lies we believe are a moral issue ... though I tend to think it's not as cut-and-dried as she does. On the other hand, I gotta say that she's run it so far into the ground that she's struck oil. Is it pick on Deidra day? smile Okay, Deidra ... is it just conceivably possible that my standard of a "great teacher" is just a wee bit higher than yours? Or even that my definition of "teacher" is a tad different? You might have been able to convince me with that lame remark had you not already told me that atleast 4 others including your Father had told you the same thing, my friend. smile ========== But laying that aside for the moment ... I still don't understand the concept of "self-worth". To me, all human beings have value (with the possible exception of Paris Hilton and her ilk), and all of us are of equal value. So when I hear you talk about "self-worth", I literally have no idea, no concept, no comprehension, no clue what you're talking about. I'm not asking you to explain it to me; I'm not sure you can. God is no respecter of persons, we all know ... and you keep telling us to use His standards instead of our own. By my understanding of His standards ... we're all of equal value. Besides, "value" implies a numeric scale with only a single variable. Our usefulness is based on many variables -- so many that only God can really sort them out. And even then, He may consider us (hypothetically speaking) to be quite useful in one area, average in another, and totally disposable in a third -- depending on our skills and the situations. So, please ... scream stop saying self-worth! It's a meaningless phrase! scream
The questions I am trying to ask are: can we possibly see ourselves as so damaged or unworthy (false inmages of ourselves) that we have erected unseen barriers in our life, that seperate us (atleast in part) from receiving the absolute fullness of God's love, and experiencing everything that He has and wants for us? And can these barriers cause us such insecurity, or doubt in ourselves and our abilities, that we are unable to operate in our gifts to the fullest, or minister to others as we should?
For instance, should an individual convince themselves that they are not worthy of God's love...wouldn't it also follow that they would believe that they were unworthy of answered prayer?
Rationally all of us know that we are unworthy except for the Blood of Jesus. But some people believe (self deception, self worth, whatever you want to call it) that there are areas of their lives that are so vile that they cant even bring them to the cross, let alone be forgiven of them. Others cannot believe that God could love them...after all no one else ever has.
I'm trying to ask if we as Christians can still have those areas of "self-deception" hidden away (maybe even from ourselves) that prevent us from walking in the fullness of God and His Spirit.
Intellectually we all say we don't have those areas (areas we are holding back from God) but is it possible that we are lying to ourselves (thus a false self-image)?hiya Deidra! razz (Deidra recently told me she missed me posting in this Guild. wasn't that nice of her? razz ) just responding to your last post here - this sounds like a Pride issue or a False Humility thing. but i sort of understand what you're saying anyhow. someone could certainly feel they're unworthy or undeserving, and its actually true. indeed we are unworthy and if we got what we deserved it would be hell. but take for instance someone who has been called to preach or pastor and then they never obeyed that calling and claimed they just didnt feel worthy - well sure - noone is worthy, but disobedience is disobedience and that normally stems from pride. i apologize if my response appears as tho i haven't taken the time to read each page of this thread - because i haven't - redface sorry! heart Hi Sarlo! Good to have you back with us! Pride is a whole nother matter I hope to get to in this topic of Christian Ethics, but I think that you are right when you say, "when you feel unworthy it can lead you into other sins such as "disobedience." This was one of the questions I was asking "can false or deceitful feelings" that we have about ourselves (in other words our self-image or perception of ourselves) cause problems in our Christian walk. Basically this entire thread (and you should read it if you can find time) is about the sin of lying and ways that we as Christians might lie. (We have talked about everything from little white lies, to bold face lies, flattery and now about lying to ourselves.) Hope you will continue in the discussion here smile
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:39 pm
Sarl0, welcome back; I'd wondered what happened to you. Deidra Diamonds Dragonbait stare I'm startin' to get the impression that this whole thread was just a setup. stare I didn't say 'twas you setting me up ... at least, not consciously. If you'll all excuse me, I have an appointment with the 15th century in the morning.
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Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:12 pm
Tryan Quote:
I don't get it....if they aren't abut Christian Ethics why are you and Tyran posting about them? That is precicely what I was attmpting to ask you without assuming that my interpretation of the topic (that it has nothing to do with ethics) was correct. I wanted to know how you saw things. Did I ever say that we don't or can't lie to ourselves? No. In fact, I believe at an earlier point I mentioned that we do lie to ourselves. I do believe acts of deceit are wrong, I was simply trying to clarify what you intended for us to be discussing. "What about self-image and self-esteem?" Isn't exactly a complete or terribly specific sentence. So, what about it? Self-image is not a lie. Self-esteem is not a lie. They are our opinions about ourselves, and they are our feelings about ourselves. These are influenced by our experiences - some of which are full of truth, some of which are full of deceit, and some of which are simply events. I don't think anyone would argue that. So, what about it? What exactly are you trying to ask? I am unclear. I am inclined to agree with Xi, I think you are thinking about what I said too hard - looking for hidden meaning where there was none. Or perhaps my meaning was unclear. As for self-worth - it doesn't matter what we think or believe about that. Unless I'm mistaken, we've already established we should be living by God's word, and self-worth is a measuring stick that, by definition, we have created , and has nothing to do with God. The term "self-worth" is similar in some respects to self-esteem, but I don't believe they are synonimous, and it certainly isn't the same as "self-image." These are completely different concepts, and I think we need to be aware of the words we use because, as my captain used to always tell us, "Words have meaning. Say what you mean." 'Bait - I have to admit, I was shocked. It does explain some things. I believe you were popular because you were involved, but more importantly, because you are kind - which I would like to differentiate from being 'nice' by saying a 'nice' person will let you walk around looking like a fool and say you look fine but a 'kind' person will say "Hey! You're messed up, go fix yourself." =P I'm sorry if my "incomplete sentence" on the previous page caused you or anyone else confusion. I guess I erroneously thought that you were following the entire thread, going from "whether or not we can lie to ourselves" to whether or not our perceptions of our own self-worth or self images (my incomplete sentence) could also be false. Because of the answers that you gave right after that statement I thought you were following. Again I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I think things got off target when people started arguing about the terminology I used, and not the intent of the question.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:05 am
Can anyone else think of any other ways we can lie to ourselves?
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:35 am
People who block out unpleasant memories are lying to themselves. So are people who focus on a single "fact", ignoring any conflicting evidence.
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:39 am
Dragonbait People who block out unpleasant memories are lying to themselves. So are people who focus on a single "fact", ignoring any conflicting evidence.
Anyone have any comments on those two or have anymore?
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Reply
