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 Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:32 am
In Medias Res IV Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Let me put it this way. I believe you either accept all of a persons writings or none of them. Since I do not believe in any way that women are below men I do not believe in any of Pauls writings. Also if you believe in Pauls writings you must believe that women are inferior unless you pick and choose what to believe in the bible and not. Inferior in spiritual rank, not in value, intelligence, etc; but yes, I don't pick and choose not to believe that teaching. Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring of other Christians. Both man and woman were created in the image of G-d. According to most Jewish scholars, "man" was created in Gen. 1:27 with dual gender, and was later separated into male and female. According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of "binah" (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was "built" (Gen. 2:22) rather than "formed" (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of "build" has the same consonants as the word "binah." It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophecy. Women did not participate in the idolatry regarding the Golden Calf. See Rosh Chodesh below. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to G-d's ideal than men. Women have held positions of respect in Judaism since biblical times. Miriam is considered one of the liberators of the Children of Israel, along with her brothers Moses and Aaron. One of the Judges (Deborah) was a woman. Seven of the 55 prophets of the Bible were women (they are included in the list of biblical prophets). The Ten Commandments require respect for both mother and father. Note that the father comes first in Ex. 20:12, but the mother comes first in Lev. 19:3, and many traditional sources point out that this reversal is intended to show that both parents are equally entitled to honor and reverence. http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm Well, good for Judaism, although I wouldn't say there's anything there that clearly sets women above men. But aren't men the only ones allowed to become priests or rabbis? That would make Judaism sexist, as well.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:33 am
Nebulance In Medias Res IV Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Let me put it this way. I believe you either accept all of a persons writings or none of them. Since I do not believe in any way that women are below men I do not believe in any of Pauls writings. Also if you believe in Pauls writings you must believe that women are inferior unless you pick and choose what to believe in the bible and not. Inferior in spiritual rank, not in value, intelligence, etc; but yes, I don't pick and choose not to believe that teaching. Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring of other Christians. Both man and woman were created in the image of G-d. According to most Jewish scholars, "man" was created in Gen. 1:27 with dual gender, and was later separated into male and female. According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of "binah" (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was "built" (Gen. 2:22) rather than "formed" (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of "build" has the same consonants as the word "binah." It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophecy. Women did not participate in the idolatry regarding the Golden Calf. See Rosh Chodesh below. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to G-d's ideal than men. Women have held positions of respect in Judaism since biblical times. Miriam is considered one of the liberators of the Children of Israel, along with her brothers Moses and Aaron. One of the Judges (Deborah) was a woman. Seven of the 55 prophets of the Bible were women (they are included in the list of biblical prophets). The Ten Commandments require respect for both mother and father. Note that the father comes first in Ex. 20:12, but the mother comes first in Lev. 19:3, and many traditional sources point out that this reversal is intended to show that both parents are equally entitled to honor and reverence. http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm Well, good for Judaism, although I wouldn't say there's anything there that clearly sets women above men.
But aren't men the only ones allowed to become priests or rabbis? That would make Judaism sexist, as well.No. Furthermore, in the Chassidim that's only the case because women do not need to study Torah as much because they are more perfect beings than men. Men need all the help they can get.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:35 am
rmcdra I don't see how you say that I'm picking and choosing. I am agreeing that marriage is A-OK but I am recognizing that it a teaching of Tradition and current Scripture that supports this rather than Paul. Why does this seem to upset you? It's still part of Christianity. So what if Paul didn't say it, it's still inspired scripture? Whoa! I didn't not saying you're picking and choosing... are you talking to me? You didn't upset me. confused
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:39 am
Women are allowed to become priests? Funny, I didn't notice that in the Torah.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:43 am
Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Let me put it this way. I believe you either accept all of a persons writings or none of them. Since I do not believe in any way that women are below men I do not believe in any of Pauls writings. Also if you believe in Pauls writings you must believe that women are inferior unless you pick and choose what to believe in the bible and not. Inferior in spiritual rank, not in value, intelligence, etc; but yes, I don't pick and choose not to believe that teaching. Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring other Christians. 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. She shall have no authority over a man." That goes way beyond what you are saying. Also a lot of churches break that first one. Also what about single mothers? There shouldn't be any single mothers or women living on their own? That is what I said. A woman should not be an elder. In the Early Church, widows were supported by the church and virgins were supported by their families or by the church. Nowhere does Scripture disapprove of women working to make a living, however.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:44 am
Nebulance Women are allowed to become priests? Funny, I didn't notice that in the Torah. Where are all the female Christian writers? We have Esther, Ruth, Naomi and others.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:47 am
In Medias Res IV Nebulance Women are allowed to become priests? Funny, I didn't notice that in the Torah. Where are all the female Christian writers? We have Esther, Ruth, Naomi and others. Yeah, and we have the Virgin Mary. My point is that women are not allowed to be clergy by either set of scriptures. Clergy>non-clergy in terms of spiritual rank. So you just called Judaism sexist, as well. If it really does teach that women are more intelligent than men, then it is (reverse) sexist in that way, as well.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:48 am
Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Let me put it this way. I believe you either accept all of a persons writings or none of them. Since I do not believe in any way that women are below men I do not believe in any of Pauls writings. Also if you believe in Pauls writings you must believe that women are inferior unless you pick and choose what to believe in the bible and not. Inferior in spiritual rank, not in value, intelligence, etc; but yes, I don't pick and choose not to believe that teaching. Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring other Christians. 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. She shall have no authority over a man." That goes way beyond what you are saying. Also a lot of churches break that first one. Also what about single mothers? There shouldn't be any single mothers or women living on their own? That is what I said. A woman should not be an elder. In the Early Church, widows were supported by the church and virgins were supported by their families or by the church. Nowhere does Scripture disapprove of women working to make a living, however. So you can apply that to only the church and yet when other's try to apply other verses to not obvious meanings you get pissy and say they're wrong? No where does that say in the church. Since it does not say this then it obviously is talking about in all things.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:50 am
Nebulance In Medias Res IV Nebulance Women are allowed to become priests? Funny, I didn't notice that in the Torah. Where are all the female Christian writers? We have Esther, Ruth, Naomi and others. Yeah, and we have the Virgin Mary. My point is that women are not allowed to be clergy by either set of scriptures. Clergy>non-clergy in terms of spiritual rank. So you just called Judaism sexist, as well. If it really does teach that women are more intelligent than men, then it is (reverse) sexist in that way, as well. Where does it say women cannot be clergy?
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:53 am
Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring other Christians. 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. She shall have no authority over a man." That goes way beyond what you are saying. Also a lot of churches break that first one. Also what about single mothers? There shouldn't be any single mothers or women living on their own? That is what I said. A woman should not be an elder. In the Early Church, widows were supported by the church and virgins were supported by their families or by the church. Nowhere does Scripture disapprove of women working to make a living, however. So you can apply that to only the church and yet when other's try to apply other verses to not obvious meanings you get pissy and say they're wrong? No where does that say in the church. Since it does not say this then it obviously is talking about in all things. Um, he's writing a letter to Timothy (his disciple and mentee) on how to run a church (since that is the assignment Timothy is currently on). The next chapters goes on to discuss the qualifications of bishops and deacons.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:58 am
Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Spiritual rank? WTF do you mean by that? Women may not be elders in the Church, pass judgment on prophecies, or be head of the household, all depicted as spiritual duties of men in the New Testament. Women have spiritual duties that include raising their children and mentoring other Christians. 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. She shall have no authority over a man." That goes way beyond what you are saying. Also a lot of churches break that first one. Also what about single mothers? There shouldn't be any single mothers or women living on their own? That is what I said. A woman should not be an elder. In the Early Church, widows were supported by the church and virgins were supported by their families or by the church. Nowhere does Scripture disapprove of women working to make a living, however. So you can apply that to only the church and yet when other's try to apply other verses to not obvious meanings you get pissy and say they're wrong? No where does that say in the church. Since it does not say this then it obviously is talking about in all things. Um, he's writing a letter to Timothy (his disciple and mentee) on how to run a church (since that is the assignment Timothy is currently on). The next chapters goes on to discuss the qualifications of bishops and deacons. I see all of it as talking about life in general. That is my interpretation of it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:03 am
Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. She shall have no authority over a man." That goes way beyond what you are saying. Also a lot of churches break that first one. Also what about single mothers? There shouldn't be any single mothers or women living on their own? That is what I said. A woman should not be an elder. In the Early Church, widows were supported by the church and virgins were supported by their families or by the church. Nowhere does Scripture disapprove of women working to make a living, however. So you can apply that to only the church and yet when other's try to apply other verses to not obvious meanings you get pissy and say they're wrong? No where does that say in the church. Since it does not say this then it obviously is talking about in all things. Um, he's writing a letter to Timothy (his disciple and mentee) on how to run a church (since that is the assignment Timothy is currently on). The next chapters goes on to discuss the qualifications of bishops and deacons. I see all of it as talking about life in general. That is my interpretation of it. Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't...
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:11 am
Nebulance rmcdra I don't see how you say that I'm picking and choosing. I am agreeing that marriage is A-OK but I am recognizing that it a teaching of Tradition and current Scripture that supports this rather than Paul. Why does this seem to upset you? It's still part of Christianity. So what if Paul didn't say it, it's still inspired scripture? Whoa! I didn't not saying you're picking and choosing... are you talking to me? You didn't upset me. confused sorry I misread a post. @Mei tsuki7 I believe Paul is talking in allegory when he is talking about the roles of men and women. Is it just in 1 Timothy where he speaks of this or is it in other letters of his? Part of 1 and 2 Timothy being accepted as Canon were to refute heretical sects such as the one I am a part of and it was common practice during that time to slap the name of an important figure to documents you wanted to support certain stances.
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:18 am
rmcdra Nebulance rmcdra I don't see how you say that I'm picking and choosing. I am agreeing that marriage is A-OK but I am recognizing that it a teaching of Tradition and current Scripture that supports this rather than Paul. Why does this seem to upset you? It's still part of Christianity. So what if Paul didn't say it, it's still inspired scripture? Whoa! I didn't not saying you're picking and choosing... are you talking to me? You didn't upset me. confused sorry I misread a post. @Mei tsuki7 I believe Paul is talking in allegory when he is talking about the roles of men and women. Is it just in 1 Timothy where he speaks of this or is it in other letters of his? Part of 1 and 2 Timothy being accepted as Canon were to refute heretical sects such as the one I am a part of and it was common practice during that time to slap the name of an important figure to documents you wanted to support certain stances. The other big one is Ephesians 5, where it talks about wives submitting to their husbands. What do you mean when you say he's talking in allegory, btw? What's his point, by your interpretation?
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:37 am
Nebulance rmcdra Nebulance rmcdra I don't see how you say that I'm picking and choosing. I am agreeing that marriage is A-OK but I am recognizing that it a teaching of Tradition and current Scripture that supports this rather than Paul. Why does this seem to upset you? It's still part of Christianity. So what if Paul didn't say it, it's still inspired scripture? Whoa! I didn't not saying you're picking and choosing... are you talking to me? You didn't upset me. confused sorry I misread a post. @Mei tsuki7 I believe Paul is talking in allegory when he is talking about the roles of men and women. Is it just in 1 Timothy where he speaks of this or is it in other letters of his? Part of 1 and 2 Timothy being accepted as Canon were to refute heretical sects such as the one I am a part of and it was common practice during that time to slap the name of an important figure to documents you wanted to support certain stances. The other big one is Ephesians 5, where it talks about wives submitting to their husbands. What do you mean when you say he's talking in allegory, btw? What's his point, by your interpretation? Since this text was written to refute different heretical sects theres also a hidden symbolism in the passage of men being over women. As IMR pointed out, women are equated to intuition and men are equated to reason. It's basically saying that intuition is not to be superior to reason. The significance of this is that intuition is how one receives gnosis. Some gnosis though if not kept in check or worked out before teaching can lead to some pretty drastic and wild things, such as the spirit being superior to the body. While this is true, some people that gain this knowledge will take it to the extreme and do things that are not consistent with Christ's Love such as commit suicide believing it to be a sure-shot to heaven. While there there was a strong opposition to gnosis as a form of salvation, gnosis in general as a supplement was not looked down upon. When I see this passage I see it as a warning to keep one's intuition in check with reason so not to be lead astray. Given the text in question, what one needs to keep from being lead astray from is the teachings of the Church of Rome.
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