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 Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:35 am
Even if the genders were reversed in that case the result would be pretty much the same.
Pushing the limits of fantasy is all well and good, but I think there's a point when people just wouldn't be able to associate certain aspects if they're altered too much.
What this guy was talking about when it came to elves not being elves if they weren't superior to humans effectively means that if they're altered too much from they state they've come to be known by so well, then they're not what they're supposed to be. I don't think elves have to be superior to humans, at least not in all areas, but the two need to have significant differences in order for them to be one or the other. We've had half-elves before, and to an extent they work, but I personally wouldn't want to write about them.
Because dwarves are traditionally thought of as being short and stocky, and elves are thought of as being tall and slender, a combination of the two makes me think......eh? Whereas humans and elves aren't extremely different from one another except perhaps for abilities in different fields of expertise.
Someone could choose to write about fire-breathing crocodiles/alligators and call them dragons, but if it was me reading that I'd think "erm....no" and just put it down and never pick it up again. The same with other ideas around here about vampiric dragons and the likes.....NOT something I'd want to read in the slightest because there's just too much of a clash as far as my opinion goes.
Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion on different aspects of fantasy of course. That's what this guild is all about; similarities, differences, new ideas, discussion, debate, agreements and disagreements. On the disagreements, the idea is to agree to disagree, but that shouldn't ever stop the debates from going on. ^_^'
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:43 am
Ha-ha! Mel is so funny. I wasn't exactly trying to crossbreed elves and dwarves. I was just pondering about the possibility. After all, you see some women with the ugliest guys (or viceversa) and it's not the end of the world. I only suggested it cuz I remember seeing that movie with Jim Carey called "Me, myself and Irene" and the first wife of the main character leaves him for a midget. Not that there's anything wrong there but I just found it odd. Like an elven woman would marry a dwarf for example. It works for comedy but, could it work in real life? I've never played Kingdom Hearts and I hear a lot of people like it and it seemed to have payed off for the company cuz the second one has gotten better reviews. I know that not everyone is gonna like something so I shouldn't be surprised that Mel doesn't like it but still... In regards to the question if elves should be always superior, well... I suppose not. I mean, elves are cool but if they are gonna be best at everything, they might not be THAT much cool. In one of my stories, the bet feature that elves have is that they have abilities no other humanoid being possesses. Most of them are pretty much like human beings and they only excel in their dexterity. Heck, most of them are frail and that's why they are more agile, to sort of compensate. You know? It's good to know Marcairn's opinions on the whole elf/dwarf thing. I agree with Mel when she says that there should be boundaries when pushing the limits of fantasy or else everything pretty much goes to hell. And she's right, nothing should stop the debates cuz they can bring topics to life. wink
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:15 pm
Don't get me started on Kingdom Hearts! Disney and Final Fantasy...NO NO NO NO NO!
However, Disney and Square Enix...yeah ok. Square should have just created characters that fit in with the kinds of games they make, but not Final Fantasy.....just.....NO. I mean, putting Sephiroth next to Goofy, Vincent next to Mickey Mouse, and Cloud next to Donald Duck.....argh! Makes me cringe!
Anyway...
I'm not saying these possibilities shouldn't be thought about, but bringing them to life would probably end in disaster.
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:35 am
Quote: Personally, I don't like Tolkien's elves or similar ones. Not the impression that remained with me after the films, vague memories of the first two books, and of course fantasy books with similar elves. I don't mind the fact that they're arrogant; that makes them less good, and it's the fact that they're so damned good/Good (that's a weird word...) and graceful and otherworldy and wonderful and pretty and merry and positively bursting with magic, that I don't like. I hate elves like that. If it helps any, the elves in the movies are not the elves in the books. The elves in the books are far more interesting. The movies are actually responsible for a whole lot of misconceptions about Tolkien's elves that really irk the crap outta me. The bit about them having magical powers, for instance. No. Never happened, despite the whole Arwen-raising-the-river-to-drown-the-ringwraiths bit. Gandalf and Elrond were the ones who actually did that and they used two of the Three Rings to do it, some of the most powerful artifacts in Middle-earth. Tolkien's elves do not have magical powers. Nor are they all blond. That was supposed to be something special. Círdan even has a beard! And there is actually no mention of them having pointy ears, anywhere. Quote: It seems to me that Tolkien, in a time where the elves of folklore (short and pixie-like or a bunch of women dancing the unwary traveller to death) are more common, created this (sort of) new kind of elves, completely swept us off our feet with it, and now it has festered so deeply into our minds we can't imagine them as anything else, just as how someone can say "dwarf" and the listener will immediately think, "Short, stocky guy with a long beard, the women probably have beards as well or are like the female dwarves of Lineage II - little girls - or simply don't exist at all, as some people of Middle Earth believe." Entirely possible, though the idea certainly existed before LotR. He certainly popularized the idea, though one really has to read carefully to really get what his elves are truly all about. I'd actually say that they're not really what most fantasy fans think of as elves. Rather, the most recent image of the elf would seem to have influenced how people see Tolkien's elves, these days. You can't really make a truly Tolkienian elf character in a game like Dungeons & Dragons, for example, because the game includes things that Tolkienian elves just don't have or aren't (that being said, you can do it passably with the most recent edition, if you're careful). Tolkien's elves seem to me to be more of a pivot between the ancient idea of elves and the most modern idea of elves. They appear to have that old legendary status. Those who scratch the surface see that they seem to have a bit more bang for their buck. If you really look into them, you see why and what is an appearance and what is true. They're really very layered. Berz.
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:36 pm
Ok Mel, don't get so MEL-odramatic, he-he... get it? Just a little joke to start me off. mrgreen
Anyways, I completely respect why you don't like the mix of Disney and Square. I don't have a problem with it myself but, who cares?
I gotta tell ya, my buddy DeathMaze is a fan of the concept. For some reason, she doesn't dislike the mix at all, in fact, she likes KH2 quite a bit.
I'm glad you think so cuz, this is a guild that was even renamed and if we weren't allowed to "imagine", as the guild's name says, then what would the point of the guild be? I'm glad we can always imagine new possibilities and don't get nagged to death about them.
BTW, I just realized that I never asked what sort of features or attributes could an elven dragon have. I mean, I remember that we discussed that such a creature could be possible if the elf had drunk a potion or something to become half dragon but, I am a bit unsure of what characteristics could be realistic and which would not be. Any ideas? I could also post mine later and see if anyone thinks they are fine or not so much.
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:42 pm
The only acceptable concept for me in that respect is a dragon being able to shape-shift. In Dragonlance, they're able to shape-shift into a humanoid form, and one of them portrays herself as an elf by the name of Silvara.
She eventually reveals her identity by moving to a place where her shadow is cast, and it apparently shows the shadow of a dragon. I'm not quite sure how THAT side of it works, but shape-shifting is the only way you're going to get me to consent to the idea of an elf-dragon combination.
You could do it the potion way, but it's just another way of giving it the explanation of "oh, it's magic!" really.
Obviously people can use whatever ideas they want, but ideas like that just make me want to ram my head repeatedly into a brick wall (maybe even concrete?)
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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:49 am
Gee, I had no idea about Dragonlance thing. I think it sounds good but I'm still not sure which way I'm gonna go now that I know there's another way to go about it. I wonder if there are more ways than a potion or being able to shape shift... neutral
Ha-ha, concrete, eh? Funny... mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:13 pm
In my elven world, Its more tribes/types than everything. If you read what I wrote about them. Each tribe has a different element, although they are both a race and like their own country. They have very exotic sounding names and notable events (the names are kinda stupid though). The Tribes:
1. Darkari- The dark tribe- Members tend to have pale skin and dark hair and eyes.
Dusk Leader
Warring with Solaris
notable elves:
-Nokirea
-Kehlara
2. Phyeris (Phe-ris)- The mind tribe- Members tend to have various skin tones, various hair colors, and ice-blue eyes.
Dusk
Warring with the Fyorei
Notable Elves:
-Alauwren
-Shoden
3. Alquen- The water tribe- Has dark skin, silver hair, and blue eyes.
Dusk
Notable Elves:
- Anara
4. Solaris- The light tribe- Has golden skin and hair, with green eyes.
Dawn Leader
Warring with the Darkari
Notable Elves:
-Kehlaner
5. Esytheousne- The Earth/Plant tribe- Has dark skin, Dark hair, and bright green eyes. Notable Elves:
Dawn
-Esytheous (Founder and namesake)
6. Fyorei- The fire tribe. Has pale skin, flaming hair, and brown eyes.
Dawn
Warring With the Phyeris tribe
Notable Elves:
-Colonel Delonera
-Firewielder Halen
-Jenal
If you have any questions be free to ask! (Yes I did change the subject, but I wanted to explain my Imaginative world (To a point)
(Edited to add the Dusk/Dawn seperation and the warring tribes/
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:10 pm
WHAT! You didn't create a wind tribe!? That's kinda anti-climatic, don't you think? mrgreen
Seriously now, I don't think all of the names are kinda stupid as you said. The only one that might need tweaking is the dark tribe's name but otherwise, they seem fine. I think it's rather odd that the members from that tribe have pale skin but I guess it's good since you wouldn't expect that to begin with.
Question, shouldn't water tribe elves have blue-ish hair so they wouldn't get noticed underwater? I mean, I've heard that some of the sea animals ave light colors under their bellies so creatures underneath them will have a hard time noticing them against the brightness of the sky (during day time) and dark colors on top so that creatures on the surface will also have a hard time trying to see them. Silver hair would be a dead give away, wouldn't you agree?
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:47 am
Oh, I love elves. My NaNo novel is about this war between the humans and the elves... I'm not going to explain the entire history of them, but lets just say that the humans, uh, decided to cut down a few of forest no. 2's trees, after the elves let them chop down forest no. 1. I'm not quite sure if that's a stupid idea for a war, but I've wrote 19,424 words about it, so it's a bit late.
So yeah... my elves are mainly under the impression that humans are the rough, stupid, tree killing people XD. But the main character ends up discovering that they're not so heartless as he once thought. But that's ONE elf out of however many others... yeah. They're the nature loving, quiet type. They did make a deal with the humans that they could cut down forest no. 2 while they migrate to forest no. 1, so they're not all bad.
And the forests do have names. I just forget how to spell them DX
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:34 pm
hypnocrown Question, shouldn't water tribe elves have blue-ish hair so they wouldn't get noticed underwater? I mean, I've heard that some of the sea animals ave light colors under their bellies so creatures underneath them will have a hard time noticing them against the brightness of the sky (during day time) and dark colors on top so that creatures on the surface will also have a hard time trying to see them. Silver hair would be a dead give away, wouldn't you agree? well, they are good swimmers, but water isn't always blue. Sometimes it is a murky brownish-green. Sometimes it is just shallow enough to see the bottom. In the ocean, dolphins aren't blue, they are a grey-silver, right? Fish are usually many colors to blend in to the coral, not the water. In the water, it is clear, but when it is blue above it is often the reflection of the sky. Underwater it seems blue because of both the reflection and the fact that the further away something is, the bluer. Plus, I live in Texas and when I visit Austin, there is a spring there called Barton Springs, The water there is drinking quality, and The water there is completely clear, you can always see the bottom, unless you look into the heart of the spring. Ok, that is my argument and i'm sticking to it! (FYI, They live in "silver" rivers, which, as according to the name, is over silver rock or metal. The most common ones are over silver marble or mixes in stone, (Usually a mix of quartz, iron, and silver with a hint of sandstone) and the river gives off a silver sheen. when they skim the bottom of these rivers their hair covers their bodies (The longer and thicker the hair the better) and makes them look like parts of the stone. When attacking on common ground, this gives them the advantage.)
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:59 pm
Oh, so that's the explanation you give, eh Sparrow? Ok, I won't needle you about it again, he-he. Seriously, I had no idea about your silver rivers so it seems to work fine that way. I have never seen a silvery dolphin in the ocean cuz let's face it, I've never been to the middle of the ocean. However, I do know that dolphins who swim in rivers are silvery in color but they're a different breed of dolphin. I think they have some kind of "hump" looking thing on their foreheads or something, I'm not sure. Vaporeae Oh, I love elves. My NaNo novel is about this war between the humans and the elves... I'm not going to explain the entire history of them, but lets just say that the humans, uh, decided to cut down a few of forest no. 2's trees, after the elves let them chop down forest no. 1. I'm not quite sure if that's a stupid idea for a war, but I've wrote 19,424 words about it, so it's a bit late.
So yeah... my elves are mainly under the impression that humans are the rough, stupid, tree killing people XD. But the main character ends up discovering that they're not so heartless as he once thought. But that's ONE elf out of however many others... yeah. They're the nature loving, quiet type. They did make a deal with the humans that they could cut down forest no. 2 while they migrate to forest no. 1, so they're not all bad.
And the forests do have names. I just forget how to spell them DX Hi Vaporeae! I think your reason for war is pretty good. After all, some actual wars have been fought for stupid reasons so why should this be any different? It's funny cuz most of the elves in my story don't think well of humans either but there are some exceptional humans who do get accepted by them. 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:07 pm
Ok, honestly I left a ton of things out, like the dusk/dawn seperation, the warring tribes, and the phoenixes, dragons, and quetzotls. Yeah, I did get your point though...
(Oh, yeah, the humps on their heads are called "Melons" they help with echolocation)
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