Paradigm Paralysis In Linguistic Systems

[Layra-chan]

Eccentric Iconoclast

I'm currently working on a sign language that uses clicks. The idea isn't that hard to deal with. razz

Adjectives really aren't always applied to nouns, even within Indo-European languages. Take a look at Spanish or French. wink

If you decompose it in terms of a logical syntactic tree, then the adjectives are actually applied to the nouns (which themselves are applied to determiner phrases, etc). They come after, but they're still attached.  

[Eccentric Iconoclast]

What does coming after have to do with anything?

Basically, I meant that one can say an adjective and the noun will be implied or considered irrelevant. One can say "el maravilloso" and mean "the marvelous (something)" in Spanish.  

[Layra-chan]

Eccentric Iconoclast

What does coming after have to do with anything?

Basically, I meant that one can say an adjective and the noun will be implied or considered irrelevant. One can say "el maravilloso" and mean "the marvelous (something)" in Spanish.

Ah, I thought you were talking about word order.
In the case you mentioned the adjective is being used as a substantive (un substantivo) which is, syntactically, a noun. English does that too. "Only the good die young." You still build a syntactic tree when you decompose the sentence; the noun is morphologically null but it's still there syntactically.

I'm rather talking about an adjective that still acts like a modifier, but doesn't have something specific to modify; not an implied reference noun but rather floats without referring to anything, but rather is a free modifier that, I guess, can modify any of the nouns in the sentence. Similarly, we'd end up with verbs that take any of the available nouns as subject, object, etc, and we'd still get some sort of truth.
Like so:

(Err...probably should have drawn that in LaTeX).  

[Xeigrich]

Adjectives are weird, but not as weird as adverbs.

In Mandarin Chinese, there is a fine line between adjectives and verbs, and between verbs and nouns.

For example, you can say "Wo hen mang" which means "I'm busy" (mang = busy). But, technically, "mang" acts as both an adjective and a verb. "Hen" is just a fluff word used with 1 or 2 syllable adjectives, but it can mean "very" when emphasized.

In a similar vein, "shi" can mean "business" or "busy". For example, "Ni mingtian shi bu shi?" means "Are you busy (or not busy) tomorrow?" but the response "Wo mingtian you shi." means "I have business tomorow."

And even further, the word "xing" can either mean "a surname" or "to be surnamed" as in "My surname is Chen." or "I am surnamed Chen."

Hmm. I think I had more to say, but at 3:20 AM, it all kinda trickles out the back of my head.  

[Eccentric Iconoclast]

Layra-chan

Ah, I thought you were talking about word order.
In the case you mentioned the adjective is being used as a substantive (un substantivo) which is, syntactically, a noun. English does that too. "Only the good die young." You still build a syntactic tree when you decompose the sentence; the noun is morphologically null but it's still there syntactically.

I'm rather talking about an adjective that still acts like a modifier, but doesn't have something specific to modify; not an implied reference noun but rather floats without referring to anything, but rather is a free modifier that, I guess, can modify any of the nouns in the sentence. Similarly, we'd end up with verbs that take any of the available nouns as subject, object, etc, and we'd still get some sort of truth.
Like so:
-snip-

(Err...probably should have drawn that in LaTeX).

Noooo, that would be stupid (the word-order thing). razz

And that's what I meant and why I said 'really' in my first post. At least the noun happens to not exist beyond the adjective. -nutty idiolect-

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.  

[Layra-chan]

There are words that modify nouns, words that modify verbs, words that modify phrases, clauses, sentences. I want a kind of word that can modify a whole paragraph, or a kind of word that modifies everything the speaker says from now until the end of time.  

[Eccentric Iconoclast]

They're called 'forum signatures'. :Þ  

[JeSuisMustapha]

Eccentric Iconoclast

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.

I don't think I'm really sure what you mean by that... Adverbs are as much of a garbage catagory as adjectives, of for that matter verbs and nouns.  

[Layra-chan]

JeSuisMustapha

Eccentric Iconoclast

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.

I don't think I'm really sure what you mean by that... Adverbs are as much of a garbage category as adjectives, of for that matter verbs and nouns.

Eccentric means that the term "adverb" doesn't really describe a single function anymore. A noun is an object, a verb is an action, an adjective is a modifier that modifies nouns, but adverbs can modify verbs, adjectives, phrases, other adverbs, etc. Things that aren't nouns, verbs, adjectives, or particles get stuck in the "adverb" category without much regard to their actual function.
For example, "quickly" is an adverb and modifies a verb. "Very" is an adverb, and modifies either an adjective or an adverb. "Hopefully" is an adverb that used to modify verbs, but now applies to entire sentences.
So what exactly does an adverb do?  

[Homurakitsune]

Layra-chan

JeSuisMustapha

Eccentric Iconoclast

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.

I don't think I'm really sure what you mean by that... Adverbs are as much of a garbage category as adjectives, of for that matter verbs and nouns.

Eccentric means that the term "adverb" doesn't really describe a single function anymore. A noun is an object, a verb is an action, an adjective is a modifier that modifies nouns, but adverbs can modify verbs, adjectives, phrases, other adverbs, etc. Things that aren't nouns, verbs, adjectives, or particles get stuck in the "adverb" category without much regard to their actual function.
For example, "quickly" is an adverb and modifies a verb. "Very" is an adverb, and modifies either an adjective or an adverb. "Hopefully" is an adverb that used to modify verbs, but now applies to entire sentences.
So what exactly does an adverb do?

Well it modifies stuff, duh silly. whee
Don't mind me, I'm running on two hours of sleep and all...  

[JeSuisMustapha]

Layra-chan

JeSuisMustapha

Eccentric Iconoclast

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.

I don't think I'm really sure what you mean by that... Adverbs are as much of a garbage category as adjectives, of for that matter verbs and nouns.

Eccentric means that the term "adverb" doesn't really describe a single function anymore. A noun is an object, a verb is an action, an adjective is a modifier that modifies nouns, but adverbs can modify verbs, adjectives, phrases, other adverbs, etc. Things that aren't nouns, verbs, adjectives, or particles get stuck in the "adverb" category without much regard to their actual function.
For example, "quickly" is an adverb and modifies a verb. "Very" is an adverb, and modifies either an adjective or an adverb. "Hopefully" is an adverb that used to modify verbs, but now applies to entire sentences.
So what exactly does an adverb do?

I'm not exactly sure that I agree "very" is an adverb at all. In fact, I know I dont think it is. And as for "hopefully", this is what I would say. In "Hopefully I can come over tonight," the italicised words work collectively as the verb, and that is exactly what hopefully is modifying. Thus, I stick with adverbs modify verbs  

[Layra-chan]

JeSuisMustapha

Layra-chan

JeSuisMustapha

Eccentric Iconoclast

At any rate, I'm not really fond of the idea of adverbs anymore. It's just a garbage category — they give it anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. It's almost as bad as 'rhotics'.

I don't think I'm really sure what you mean by that... Adverbs are as much of a garbage category as adjectives, of for that matter verbs and nouns.

Eccentric means that the term "adverb" doesn't really describe a single function anymore. A noun is an object, a verb is an action, an adjective is a modifier that modifies nouns, but adverbs can modify verbs, adjectives, phrases, other adverbs, etc. Things that aren't nouns, verbs, adjectives, or particles get stuck in the "adverb" category without much regard to their actual function.
For example, "quickly" is an adverb and modifies a verb. "Very" is an adverb, and modifies either an adjective or an adverb. "Hopefully" is an adverb that used to modify verbs, but now applies to entire sentences.
So what exactly does an adverb do?

I'm not exactly sure that I agree "very" is an adverb at all. In fact, I know I dont think it is. And as for "hopefully", this is what I would say. In "Hopefully I can come over tonight," the italicised words work collectively as the verb, and that is exactly what hopefully is modifying. Thus, I stick with adverbs modify verbs

But you're not coming hopefully over (in that you are not coming in a hopeful manner), nor are you being able in a hopeful sense. "Hopefully" is, semantically, modifying the entire clause, in that you, the speaker, are hoping that the statement (as a whole) is true. At present, it is a shortening of "I hope that...".
And "very" is an adverb, and modifies just about anything. Actually, there is a synonym "very" that acts as an adjective (meaning true), but nobody uses that these days. (Well, I'll start using it to piss off my friends, but that doesn't count).
Would you consider "extremely" to be an adverb? It modifies both adjectives and other adverbs, and it certainly doesn't belong in any other syntactic category.  

[JeSuisMustapha]

I will concede the hopefully arguement, but thats merely because I dont know the finer grammar rules like that. As for very, I personally dont consider it an adverb. Most of the time we use it, it describes how to be, which in itself I dont understand because for that (to be) it is usually only acceptable to use an adjective anyways.

I am happy- not happily
You are slow- not slowly
This is fun- not funnily
etc.

If somebody could explain this to me, that would be great. The same thing applies for verbs such as smells, tastes, looks, feels(basically sensory verbs.) Extremely is just a synonym of very, so thats the same argument.  

[Xeigrich]

JeSuisMustapha

I will concede the hopefully arguement, but thats merely because I dont know the finer grammar rules like that. As for very, I personally dont consider it an adverb. Most of the time we use it, it describes how to be, which in itself I dont understand because for that (to be) it is usually only acceptable to use an adjective anyways.

I am happy- not happily
You are slow- not slowly
This is fun- not funnily
etc.

If somebody could explain this to me, that would be great. The same thing applies for verbs such as smells, tastes, looks, feels(basically sensory verbs.) Extremely is just a synonym of very, so thats the same argument.

"to be" is a copula, which is a special type of verb. They're sometimes called "equating verbs" and are often listed with "linking verbs" such as "must, would, could" etc. So "to be" has a lot of exceptions.

"Very" is an adverb pretty much because some English professors (or whoever) said so a long time ago.

Really for this argument, you need to keep in mind HOW a word is used, not exactly what its default designation is. You can say, "I was standing in this very spot when I saw the robbery!" and in that case, "very" is an adjective modifying "spot," a noun. But most of the time you say "very cold" or "very happy" or "very quickly" and so "very" is modifying adjectives or other adverbs, making it an adverb.

Also, with the "hopefully" thing... Your sentence should technically have been "Hopefully, I can come..." with the comma in there. That sets the word apart from the rest of the sentence and reduces confusion (or at least that's what it's supposed to do, not that it really works). The other way to put it is, "I, hopefully, can come over..." again set apart with commas.


EDIT: OH, and for anyone who thinks, "But, if very is an adverb, why doesn't it end in ly like the rest of the true adverbs? Wouldn't you say verily instead?" Well, "verily" is a completely different word... Ehh, different in usage anyway. Where "very" is considered an intensifier, "verily" is merely an adverb that means "truly" or "certainly." I'm pretty sure that the word "verily" is related more to the word "verify," but for all I know that could very well be where "very" came from as well!  

[Layra-chan]

JeSuisMustapha

I will concede the hopefully arguement, but thats merely because I dont know the finer grammar rules like that. As for very, I personally dont consider it an adverb. Most of the time we use it, it describes how to be, which in itself I dont understand because for that (to be) it is usually only acceptable to use an adjective anyways.

I am happy- not happily
You are slow- not slowly
This is fun- not funnily
etc.

If somebody could explain this to me, that would be great. The same thing applies for verbs such as smells, tastes, looks, feels(basically sensory verbs.) Extremely is just a synonym of very, so thats the same argument.

I am not and have never been very. Neither have you, nor have any of your friends, nor has anyone else. Neither have you been extremely. You may have smelled extremely at some point, but in that case extremely modifies your manner of smelling; it does not modify you.
When somebody asks you how you feel, you do not reply "extremely" unless you're being obnoxious.
One can say "the happy dog" but one cannot say "the very dog." You cannot stick "very" in front of a noun and get a meaningful phrase; I suggest you try it in English class, see how the teacher reacts. You could also try with "extremely."

For example, "the extremely dog is very." This should sound wrong to you. This should sound very wrong to you (wherein "very" modifies "wrong", not "sound").
A more proper sentence would be "the ((extremely (big)) dog) is (very (happy))" where the parentheses indicate syntactic grouping.
In this case, "extremely" modifies "big", "extremely big" modifies "dog", but "extremely" does not modify "dog"; "very" modifies "happy", and "very happy" provides a predicate for "is", but "very" is not a predicate for "is".

To be, to smell, to taste, to look, to feel, etc, require adjectives. Very cannot answer them, nor can extremely.