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Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:10 pm
It isn't making me regret wanting to convert, not at all! I know eventually I will feel more comfortable, and probably more excepted, but right now I do feel like the red headed step child. (Sorry for the useage of that phrase.)
I guess like anything else it's just a phase. I'd like to wait to convert until I find a synagogue that best suits me, but sometimes I get too eager/impatient.
Thank you for the kind words though. It really does help to know that someone understands, or is at least willing to listen. I'm sure I will eventually find my niche, and I'll be laughing about the fact that I found wide brimmed hats and dark suits intimidating. 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:26 pm
Consider this, Kingpin. When a previously unobservant Jew decides to become observant, the black hats and headscarves are even more intimidating. See, for someone not reared among Jews and Judaism, that just looks like "Jew," and so it feels no more difficult than approaching your first synagogue in which everyone's wearing jeans. For someone born Jewish, the black hats and headscarves look like someone who knows how to do it right... and the previously unobservant Jew feels defensive, like they SHOULD know how to do it right, but they really don't. It's very intimidating to feel, "Why don't I do this? Will I have to defend myself or my family for not teaching me this way of doing things? What if I don't like it -- will I have to get into some whole big argument about it, when I'm not even sure whether I believe it's necessary or not?"
In both cases, though, it gets easier when you remember that every Jew who decides to live observant after a lifetime of being unobservant or less observant -- AND every sincere convert, who chooses Judaism and the Jewish people with open eyes and an informed mind -- is considered precious beyond jewels. It feels like finding a treasure that we, Israel, didn't even realize we'd lost. Like meeting the love of one's life, when the only regret is all the time we spent not knowing this person and having them in our lives. I suppose it's also like adopting or giving birth to a child -- this stranger, whom we love even before fully knowing what they'll turn out to be like.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:33 pm
I do worry that I'm going to have to do a lot of defending for myself, but I know I try my hardest. I'm trying my hardest to go through my wardrobe. I'm trying my hardest to learn Jewish history. I'm trying my hardest to understand in general. I know I'll be rewarded for that, but the books I read just make it sound like if you want to convert to Orthodoxy, there will be a great deal of shunning and no one will pay attention to you.
Though I'm going at this with an opened mind and heart, I don't want to get to a crucial point and be ignored. I feel like I'm giving my everything to Judaism and making sure that when the time comes that I feel excepted and feel Jewish, but like I said, I don't wanted to be treated unclean if this is what I am trying so hard to do.
I guess maybe I'd feel better if I knew I wasn't the only person who was 16 years old, ignorant towards Jewish culture, and with a mouth like a sailor who ever started the journey towards a Jewish lifestyle. I feel alone enough as it is, you know?
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:56 pm
You're totally not the only one. Actually, you're going to find it a lot easier than if you were older. If you've already been married once, the beit din would ask you loads of questions about whether you have a divorce document, or if your husband wants to convert (and if he doesn't, then you either divorce him or you don't convert), why you broke up, whether you have kids and whether they want to be raised Jewish too, et cetera ad nauseum. It's a real pain in the tachat (tochas).
Being young and unmarried, the only real question will be whether you already have a Jewish boyfriend and are converting for his sake. Be honest, of course, but the answer they're looking for secretly is "No, I don't, but someday God willing." They don't want anyone to convert for the sake of marriage, because if you convert and then break up, then you might not feel motivated to keep observing the mitzvot on your own. They want to know that you want JUDAISM, not just one particular Jew. And since it sounds like you do want to be Jewish only l'shem shamayim (for the sake of heaven), then you're good to go. smile
I won't lie: it can be hard to first approach any group of Jews, especially the Orthodox. The stricter people are about their own observance, the more likely theyll want to wait and make sure you feel like sticking around before they get too attached to you, only to find out that you've had second thoughts and don't really want to be a part of Yisrael after all. But once they've realized that you're serious about the religion and serious about wanting to be adopted into the family of Yisrael, they'll likely embrace you wholeheartedly to make up for their initial wait-and-see attitude. It does get easier once people get to know you.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:52 pm
I see what you mean. I know they do what they do for a reason, and I appreciate that they care so much. It's nothing Christians, or even Muslims, care about. All they care about is having one more person. I personally don't think that's right. I'm not singling them out because I hate their religions, as I'm sure other religions do it to, they just seem to be the most common "convert by saying you want to and that's it" religions.
Sometimes I think about converting some place and then moving to New York/that general area that way I don't have to tell people or explaian to them that I once wasn't Jewish unless I want to, or absolutely have to. Is it wrong to do that...or unwise? I don't want to hurt a rabbi's feelings or anything like that by not joining his/her congregation if he is the one who goes to so much trouble to help me convert...but is that something people do? Is that selfish of me?
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:08 pm
If you move, you move. While it's nice to try and contribute to the congregation while you're converting, sure, it also makes sense go go somewhere that you aren't known as a non-Jew. But keep in mind that after a convert finishes the conversion process, that person is no longer known as a convert, but as a Jew. That's halachah. People aren't even permitted to ask if someone's a convert, nor to refer to anyone as a convert for any reason other than (1) to be called up to the Torah, or (2) when arranging a shidduch/match for marriage, because a convert can't marry a kohein. Other than that, people are required to be silent on the issue unless you yourself bring it up.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:27 pm
I don't actually know if I could go through that much. Going from place to place not knowing anyone, especially when I need people the most. (During conversion, etc)
On the topic of finding a rabbi, can women be rabbis of Orthodox synagogues?
I also learned from the book I'm reading that liberal Judaism often sponsors conversion classes. Can you sign up for these just for the extra knowledge, even if your rabbi doesn't suggest it?
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:58 am
Orthodox female rabbis: Mainstream Orthodoxy doesn't permit women to be ordained as rabbis or cantors, though there have been three women ordained as Orthodox rabbis within the last five years. I know one of them, a very sweet woman, Rabbi Haviva Ner-David. She's written a book that I quite enjoyed reading, Life On The Fringes, and you might find it enjoyable and eye-opening as well.
Conversion classes: Actually, it's not only liberal Judaism that has classes. Most synagogues do offer an Introduction to Judaism class, and it's a very good idea to take that class. There'll be potential converts there, as well as Christians trying to learn about the religion that their deity practiced during his short life, and also Jews who regret not getting more of a Jewish education as kids. I took two such classes, one after the other -- one taught by a Reform rabbi and one taught by a Conservative rabbi with a very traditional leaning -- and learned a great deal in both. These are wonderful to take, and if you take one, then you can say "Yes!" when your rabbi asks if you've taken such a class. In fact, some rabbis won't talk seriously with you about conversion until after you've taken an Intro to Judaism class.
About moving: Moving may be a good thing for you, but it would almost certain slow down y our conversion process. You'd have to start all over, since your new rabbi won't really know how far you've gotten with your Jewish studies or with your personal journey. I'd highly recommend staying put while converting, if at all possible. If you have to move for any reason, see if you can put it off until after you've completed your conversion. If you can't, well, them's the breaks.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:49 pm
Well I figured Rabbi would be more common than Cantor, but only three? I guess that's a huge step, but wow! xp
I think I'll just stay put. I guess if nothing else, being a known non-Jew would be a growing experience. It's nothing I can't handle. Everyone here basically treats as if I am Jewish, and I've never really experienced being "tested".
So in Choosing a Jewish Life, the book I'm currently reading, she talks about when you are ready to go through with Mikvah. That for some people it's referring to "Us" instead of "Them", which is strange for me, because I've always done that. It may be wrong of me, but I sometimes think of myself as born Jewish, just not to a Jewish family. I mean, otherwise I wouldn't be converting, would I? Were you the same way, or did it take you awhile to fully get settled with the idea of being able to say,"We're Jewish" or anything of that nature?
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:10 pm
I know you're not trying to ask if I'm a convert or refer to me as a convert, but because it's not tzanuah to ask or answer, I'm going to answer a different question instead.
I wasn't given a very Jewish upbringing at all. As a child, my family and I were performers, so though I'd never been into a synagogue at all, I was in a different church almost every week, singing or listening to my parents play one or more of their instruments; I heard a great deal about what the Jews USED to do, back in the day before Juh-HEE-zus set us all free of those horrible, burdensome laws. That'll get you down in a hurry. Plus, it doesn't really teach you anything about Judaism or Jewishness. I did, in fact, think of Jews as "they" and "them," simply because that's how I heard Jews discussed every week in some church or another. I was rather divorced, mentally, from the idea of Jews and Judaism, both as a religion and as a people.
So I have had to approach Judaism almost exactly as would any convert. I took classes, did loads of research, asked my Jewish friends unending questions. When I chose to visit the mikvah for the first time, I'd already been with my bashert for a few years. I find it an interesting place. Sometimes I love the mikvah. Sometimes -- like when I'm uncertain whether I can immerse, and have to ask a rabbi a shailah (a question concerning mikvah issues) -- I feel that something very intimate is being held up to the light and exposed in a way I'd rather not. But in the end, so far, I'm choosing to observe the laws of mikvah as best I can. Most of the time, I love the laws of mikvah and of family purity. At other times, I feel the necessity of them.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:45 pm
Oh I'm so sorry! I didn't even realize. redface *Irons hands*
I was fortunate enough to be raised secular. I had no knowledge or anything about other religions besides basics. I think it's why religion fascinated me so much later in life. I started going to church and everything, and I had my first taste of hate and purposeful misconstruing. I think it is the main reason I turned my back on organized religion. Even at 12 I knew it was wrong for them to say these things about Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and any other protestant religion that wasn't theirs.
...I dunno. I think I'm just rambling. xd
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:09 am
I know what you mean. Some of the churches I attended were wonderful places. Nice people, a message about love and kindness and mercy. Others made me rather sick, teaching about how much better this church was than those other churches, or 'worse,' non-Christian religions, all of whom were apparently going to burn in hell, from babies to great-grandparents, because they were blasphemers, and on and on. I still have problems with Christian theology and doctrine, but thanks to that first type of church I mentioned -- teaching about love, hope, kindness, and that kind of thing -- I don't have an inherent distaste for Christians themselves. Early experiences count for a lot, I guess.
Anyway, sort of back to the thread's topic: I just got a new job, and started yesterday. My head covering is actually serving me well there. I'm working at a Jewish publication, in the circulation department. I've noticed that while a couple of the employees don't wear head coverings, and shake hands or pat one another on the back on a regular basis, those who do cover (men and women) don't get that sort of reaction. People keep a respectful distance, don't offer handshakes, don't steer us around the room by putting a hand on our backs. Best of all, people don't automatically assume we're unfriendly just because we don't want to be touched or flirted with. They know that we can like our co-workers without wanting to be manhandled by them. It's lovely.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:02 pm
I have never been touchy! And when you're from where I'm from, and not touchy, people get rather offended. I don't like shaking hands with men to begin with, but I always feel so bad when I just leave them hanging. It would never even occur to them that it would be for some reason other than frigidness. I'm happy that you found a work place that suits your liking!
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:29 pm
Normally I try to put on a regretful smile and say with sincerity, "I'm so sorry, I don't touch men outside my family for religious reasons." They generally look surprised, but apologize, and then we do that again the next several times we meet until they remember.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:55 pm
It always upset me that men want to shake lady's hands. We aren't one of the guys anyway, you shouldn't want to crush us with your killer grip!
I might have said this before, but I'll say it again. I'm pretty excited berets are in this winter. Now girls who want to cover will have a much bigger selection instead of just wool ones. 3nodding
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