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 Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:12 am
I agree with Kouri, but I'm suprised on how you Hiru are really good at graphic and s**t like that...you really know what your doing lol sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:37 pm
Hoshigaki Hiru I gave a shot at making Hiru's future summon if he ever makes it there! Have to find it a name though...  You could follow the naming pattern of the toad summons. Yours would start with Kame-. Perhaps that one would be Kameaoi or Kamemizu or something. Its up to you, of course, just throwing ideas out there. Btw nice picture.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:43 pm
Hehe thanks guys! If some of you guys want to I can always try to make commissions, just can't guarantee delivery dates though, I do those in my spare time wink
But yeah I thought about it a bit and turtles would be a perfect fit for Hiru, both have strong water ability, both more passive than agressive plus their personalities would make great interactions between slow and cool turtles with hyper Hiru.
Just have to get this thing approved, Hiru still needs 3 more chakra before he can learn the summoning technique anyway. how does it work in RP to find a contract?
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:44 pm
Yeah...its been forever since I posted any training. I feel like i'm a little off my game lol rolleyes
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:58 pm
On a side note, Proto pointed out to me that the turtle contract was already saved for the Senju clan and I hadn't noticed, so instead I'll gun for another species of the chelonians family: the tortoise. The chelonians have three species: the turtle, the tortoise and the terrapin. The difference between the three in the animal kingdom is actually greater then the difference between the wolves, dogs and jackals. I actually learned somethinmg because of this guild eek .
And BnW, I've been wanting to do an edit of your character but there is no description in the scroll about your clothing, you'll have to come up with something more specific if you want one wink .
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:41 am
...and does the fact change that they are of the same element? Almost too similar? Genbu is a tortoise, but the rest of the contract is not. May I remind that a contract spans not just the general family, but also of the species it encompasses - Hatake Kakashi's dog contract did not summon the same species of dogs, nor does the snake contract the same species of serpents.
Species merely outlines more specific things such as behavior, physical characteristics, Hiru, and the last time summoning contract clean-up talk came about, because of that discrepancy, all species-particular oriented contracts not already created/in use are probably going to have to go whenever the clean-up comes. The only species-oriented contracts with really a right would be the existing Hyouton based artic wolves, because at the least they are not a shadow of another contract.
Look for originality. Leave Konoha and our turtles be.
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kouri-chan_xx Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:48 am
So, uh. Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days again. i'll be back tomorrow, after SATs. I've just been studying my butt off right now. Obviously, Proto is doing a better job of time management that I am!
See you guys tomorrow!
Well... Hiru... you could summon camels rofl They seem to be a really desert-y type of animal but eh... you could always travel to the desert villages and beg the Kage to let you have the summon >_> <_< Maybe >_> <_<
@finding a contract: PM Crew, they will give you the general outline and work with you and stuff, say you wanted to visit oh I don't know... a mountain environment, or even another village, they may send you there to face trials and what not. Of course, it has to fit the contract.
If you wanted water ability + passiveness + slow and cool you could also try... >_>... shellfish... <__< lawl imagine a mamma mussel mega summon. It could engulf Hiru in its shell and protect him.
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:11 pm
Hoshigaki Hiru On a side note, Proto pointed out to me that the turtle contract was already saved for the Senju clan and I hadn't noticed, so instead I'll gun for another species of the chelonians family: the tortoise. The chelonians have three species: the turtle, the tortoise and the terrapin. The difference between the three in the animal kingdom is the same as the difference between the wolves, dogs and jackals. I actually learned somethinmg because of this guild eek .
And BnW, I've been wanting to do an edit of your character but there is no description in the scroll about your clothing, you'll have to come up with something more specific if you want one wink .
He does have a clothing description but I like to keep it in a different variety..you know wink
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:24 pm
ProtoXtreme ...and does the fact change that they are of the same element? Almost too similar? Genbu is a tortoise, but the rest of the contract is not. May I remind that a contract spans not just the general family, but also of the species it encompasses - Hatake Kakashi's dog contract did not summon the same species of dogs, nor does the snake contract the same species of serpents.
Species merely outlines more specific things such as behavior, physical characteristics, Hiru, and the last time summoning contract clean-up talk came about, because of that discrepancy, all species-particular oriented contracts not already created/in use are probably going to have to go whenever the clean-up comes. The only species-oriented contracts with really a right would be the existing Hyouton based artic wolves, because at the least they are not a shadow of another contract.
Look for originality. Leave Konoha and our turtles be.
I mean yes the dog contract summons different breeds of dogs, tortoises are not a breed of turtle, they're a whole different family (basically meaning that tortoises are to turtles what bears are to tigers). There are different breeds of turtles (american marshland turtles or australian turtles) as there are various breeds of tortoises (the desert tortoise or the giant seychelles tortoise).
I understand some look a bit similar and probably have the same element but they differ significantly in their diet, and specially their tempers. One is actually considered a land animal and the other a marine animal. Given these differences the way the skill points are distributed for tortoises should differ greatly from the way they are distributed for turtles. I mean I don't think having the water element for two similar families should be a problem, but worst off they could very well be of the earth element as tortoises are all land based.
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:03 pm
After the SAT, I'm hardly in the most amiable of moods. So lately I just get down to the chopping block...
It's a turtle contract, never specifically a Chelonioidea superfamily contract, and, as you have said they're all under the Testudines order and goes as far down as the Cryptodira suborder. It's about around the superfamily where it more specifically divides about habitat particulars, appearing water salinity and such. Because superfamily is a specialized sub-category, then all we have left down the taxonomy ranking are genus and species. We already determined species do not matter to the summoning contracts - I'll address the other portion of the taxonomy problem below.
Water-affinity, in reference contract-wise, do not bull-doze over the category of tortoises just because they reside on land (their affinity would still be water, what else, for their element to be Earth...? Goodness no.) though theoretically they "should" not be as effective in controlling water-based techniques.
However, looking at the Frog contract, Gamabunta, the boss summon, is notably a toad and though frogs and toads are categorically aquatic creatures, as amphibians at adult stage, they are fine living on land. Bunta wields water techniques without trouble however, so a subtly shifting difference in living condition do not appear to affect the contracted summons' abilities. That is the more minor of my point. Bufonidae and Ranidae are notably, different families. Therefore, contracts are pretty much wholly indiscriminate from family on.
Even should the subtle discounts in power over wielding the same element between cousin lines be accounted for, let me kindly provide, Genbu ('Black Tortoise'), the boss summon is an quite special exception because he is based off a Chinese legend, a myth and therefore would go against scientific labeling. In other words, a tortoise with the perfect ability to wield water.
For your argument of dogs and the other carnivores, in fact, the relationship between the wolfs, coyotes, goes as far down as the genus, canis. In generalized conclusion, it would be therefore mostly the species in taxonomy that particularly defines the dog from its other similar carnivorous counterparts. Or more specifically so it would be a sub category under genus.
But there are quite much differences between a domesticated and wild beast, hence, a dog summon would most likely not be as superior as to its cousin contracts in instinctive abilities (in such practical matters as applying the senses as in tracking). Therefore, even if the argument was over genus (in general), as supplied above and prior it would seem in contracts of even more particular family-oriented detail splits around genus, as demanded by our wolf and dog.
Game system wise...the factor is null anyhow, because notably we do not have multiple four-legged animal contracts up to the same genus as you believe. Because, at that point, the question would come up as to why on earth that is necessary. Thus, the focus for contract creation is generally lingering around order just before it splits into family.
Why the reason, for there to be all Earth affinity creatures of too similar descendant lines? So unless like the wolf of the Earth-based contract against their artic wolf cousins, then it was accepted. I do not mean this for new Hyouton contracts to come crashing in a flood because then that would be intruding on the Elemental Creation families but, like the Weasels of Suna, for example, using not the expected affinity of accordance to general habitat (of a land-dwelling animal) but basing off myth too instead. In order to contrast with the Dog contract, notably Earth-based, I offered to create Oto's wolf contract but end up scrapping the Earth-affinity version in favor of a Wind-based one to maintain the uniqueness against cousin contracts.
Temper and diets are small matters by the way, that's more closer to personality, each rank of summon in fact is unique to the contracted shinobi and even those with the same contract don't end up summoning the exact same animals. Claiming temper defines a particular group of animals...well, that's about the same as claiming a whole group of people is 'bad' without defining by more refined observance.
So I'm speaking of greatly unique differences that can strike the observer with one glance, not minorly subtle differences. And as you yourself have said, both are aquatic hard-shelled creatures so, what on earth is the point of having an animal just like another contract? I will not concede, because I had opted and drew up Senju's contract to be special, and I believe in the long run even if I do concede, you too would realize the creation of a shadow contract (because of the same affinity and only very minor differences) would only lead to further disagreements down the line in technique creation and such.
Furthermore, I may not be finishing my Master's degree, but Science is my future chosen field, with law my second, and my mother did major in Psychology. Normally, for respectful tact's sake, I would not say this, but I did warn that I am writing at an irate time. So.
I think I'm not so dulled by age yet as to realize the purpose of the throwing of scientific terms or even the bringing of a pm qualm out here. I may not be an officially certified biology expert, but I do consult texts much on my own not only because I love the subject but because I see a career that requires it. If you had used different reasoning before heading into your "alternative method", perhaps, that - might - be explainable but to address the very same points you directly gave me and I answered, only rephrased? I refused giving more guild-centered reasons at first. In the insistence to continue, you could have specified for me to elaborate.
And this does not even take into account that we are only having this problem in the first place because you did not look at the contracts listing individual villages claimed. The summoning contract thread in the Game System subforum isn't there for decoration. Sure, that listing can possibly change with negotiation between the Kages - at least bother to ask first...? If you wish to split at hairs, fine, we can have a long and nice scientific discussion when I am not plagued by the commitment in choosing to take 4 APs (two sciences, a math, and a history) and the lovely college application season. For the meantime, I am rather much miffed at your discourtesy.
The contract is Konoha's. I am not negotiating further (why do I even bother......conversation should've ended right when you kindly ignored the Summoning thread......) on this matter.
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:01 am
Ok I'm sorry if you took this personnaly, I just wanted to get some outside opinions because I thought this was very neutral but I realize you didn't take it this way, I'm going back to PMs if you prefer it.
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:35 am
I bothered to detail canon contracts to show that minimum classification falls before family. Frogs and toads are not from the same family, yet they go under the same contract. This is a part-fantasy/mythological based guild - at least I remember the Naruto series being so - thus, it isn't just about obeying scientific rules but what you asked for more involved the contract boundaries that defines one contract from another. Your outside source had kindly referred to more specialized characteristics dividing around the family rank in the taxonomy to which there are existing canon contracts disproving the generalized claim you made based on that piece of information.
Kishi himself did not split contracts by species (but in this guild we did) and except in the case of cousin contracts with a greater discrepancy (a domesticated vs wild or such), then by genus. Though to avoid problems presented by too-similar cousin contracts that divided around genus or even further down (wolf vs artic wolf), in this guild contracts that divided from genus on (e.g. dog and wolf) were given wholly different affinities and further branched off into wholly different manners of usage/attacks. Kakashi's dogs could tunnel, I made the wolf contract so that they can't.
So. Is it that hard to make it clear a no is a no? You asked for my consent of the making of a shadow-cousin contract to my Kage, I stated my opinions. Look for another sub-order. There's quite plenty of other things that live in water.
/Edit/
Even though the further you drag this on, the less likely I am to compromise, because it's mommy who asked, I'll give this much consideration. I am not compromising on the creation of a shadow-cousin contract but, I hold the contract claim thus the scroll, however, you may take part as one of the (three?) (five?) allotted signature-slots [for each summoning treaty]. Though I usually dislike working on customs with other influences, I'll even settle for incorporating your preferentials in as well. That'll be as far as I am willing to go. Good day.
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Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:39 pm
ProtoXtreme Even though the further you drag this on, the less likely I am to compromise, because it's mommy who asked, I'll give this much consideration. I am not compromising on the creation of a shadow-cousin contract but, I hold the contract claim thus the scroll, however, you may take part as one of the (three?) (five?) allotted signature-slots [for each summoning treaty]. Though I usually dislike working on customs with other influences, I'll even settle for incorporating your preferentials in as well. That'll be as far as I am willing to go. Good day.
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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:10 am
OMFG, guys, I am SO sorry. I need someone to help me NPC Batou and Andou until the 25th >.> I er, kind of forgot to tell people i'd be away on a school trip >.> Just post here if you want to NPC, and I'll PM you the lesson plans. which aren't actually very extensive, but still. Sorry again. Hopefully, after all this early decision hassle is done and I actually write my essays (-.-) I'll have more time.
Batou is basically a nice cheerful helpful guy.
Andou is basically a p***k who likes to put you down. But show some discretion!
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kouri-chan_xx Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:18 am
Kouri, gimmie a name and I'll help out. I have been really wrapped up the past like 2 weeks, hence why i haven't done any posts.... lol but I'm open to actually helping out now!!! Gimmie what you want me to do love
heart heart heart
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