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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:15 pm


comfortably_dumb
Can we really "fix" it? Because we will always sin.
We can with God's help and forgiveness.
Quote:
I do think that sin for Christians and sin for non-Christians is very different; when we sin, we are supposed to hate the sin and hate when we are in sin.
Okay
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However, sins of the flesh are very natural due to the Fall, like you said.
Actually no they are not if we are going to argue from theology.
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It is our nature to go after sinful things because they are attractive.
No we have a desire to sin because we have a desire to be disobedient if we are going to argue from theology.
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Sex looks nice, non-Christians are attractive, getting drunk with friends looks like a good time, etc. Sin is definitely glamorized.
These things are only sins when not taken in moderation or not done in the proper context FYI.

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Isn't it healthy to want to be sinful in some respects? I am saying, isn't it healthy and normal to want to have sex before you're married? Isn't it healthy and normal to want to drink on occasion? Isn't it healthy and normal to lust after things once and a while?
The thing is though the things you are listing are drives that can be redirected. You don't have to suppress those urges to overcome them. With homosexual attraction, to say the attraction is a sin would force a person to lie to themselves in order to overcome it. They literally must suppress it because even if they don't act upon it or redirect that urge, they still feel it. Sexual urge =/= lust.

Quote:
I do not think we should classify things by what is "normal and healthy" of this world. As Christians, we are not of this world, and living by its standards, I think, will only promote sin.
I'm talking about what has been proven true by science as normal and healthy (since science is based on reason and reason is a divine gift from God), not what societally is accepted as normal and healthy. They are not the same thing
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:27 pm


Captain_Shinzo
Captain_Shinzo
xxEternallyBluexx
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xxEternallyBluexx
Why not? How do you know for sure it doesn't work that way?

So you think it's impossible for someone who's homosexual to turn straight? What evidence do you have for this conclusion?


Yes, it is completely impossible for someone who is gay to turn straight. The American Psychological Association came out with a 138 page report fairly recently which showed that there is no evidence suggesting that it is in any way possible for homosexuals to change their orientation. In fact, they found a great deal of evidence showing that attempting to do so is actually very harmful for gay people; the gay people who they studied who tried to change their orientation suffered from incredible depression and anxiety. When gay people try to will themselves into becoming straight, it just doesn't work. It's impossible to do and it's stupid ideas like the one that gay people can change that makes gays so much more likely to become depressed or suicidal. You may not think about it that way, but all of this hateful "gays can change" speech is literally harmful to gay people. If everyone would just accept gay people for who they are, then gay teens wouldn't be become as depressed as they do. A 1997 study showed that of the high schoolers who attempted suicide that year, 40 percent of them were gay, which is an awful lot considering that gay people only make up 3 percent of the population. And I completely blame stupid, hateful homophobes who claim that these kids can change and that they just aren't trying hard enough.

I can also speak about this from personal experience. I am a lesbian, I've always been a lesbian, even when I was little it was obvious. Nobody told me to be one and I never knew any other gay people to encourage me to be one. I just am. And since I was raised a conservative Christian and was always told that it's wrong to be gay, I tried to change. I prayed constantly, begging God to help me change. And when that didn't work, I sank into an awful depression and became next to suicidal. And looking back, it wasn't really that I was depressed about being gay; it was all of those assholes who told me that I was wrong and that I could change that made me depressed. When I finally started making friends with people who accepted me for who I was, I stopped being so depressed and I started thinking about who I am rationally. It was only when I accepted that being gay was just how God made me that I actually learned how to be happy for the first time in my life. And please don't suggest that I just didn't try hard enough not to be gay and that I would be happier if I somehow changed; you have no idea how hard I tried and if I had kept on trying I probably would have killed myself a long time ago.

And I know you're thinking "but there are people who used to be gay who are straight now." Well, there aren't. Maybe they call themselves straight and they have spouses of the opposite gender now, but just because you change what you do doesn't mean that you can change what you are. That's like saying that a short person who wears high heels is actually tall; it just doesn't make any sense. I've met people before who've claimed to be ex-gays and maybe I just have a hightened sense of gaydar, but if I'd never met these people and knew nothing about them, I would just assume they were gay. Because the fact of the matter is, you can fake it and go through the motions, but you can never change you you truly are. All articles I've read before by ex-ex-gays talk about how they could pretend that they were straight, but they could never actually change who they are. And I can't think of anything more depressing than living a lie, and that's exactly what "ex-gays" are doing.

Anyway, if you want anymore evidence than psychological studies and personal experience, then I just can't help you. If you are at all an open minded or rational person, then I'm sure you can see that whether or not it's morally acceptable to be in a gay relationship, being gay itself is not a choice and not something that can be changed.


xxEternallyBluexx
And why would it be sad for someone homosexual to want to be straight? What if they wanted to do it because they were in love with someone straight, but not attracted to them, or because their sexuality issues were seriously messing with them, or even with their family? If it bothers some homosexuals so much, and from what I've read it seems to, then I think if the option were available they shouldn't be forced to live as differently. I also think we should look to give them the option, because just like there's plastic surgery for those who really need it, there's probably homosexuals who would give a lot to not to be (for various reasons).


It's sad because I think it's healthier to just accept who you naturally are than to want to be something you're not. Imagine a teenage girl who eats healthfully and exercises but feels she's overweight. Now, either she can obsess over her weight, dieting to an extreme, over exercising, and even getting surgery. Or she can just accept that her normal body weight is more than other girls. From a psychological point of view, it just seems healthier for her to be happy with who she naturally is than to go against nature to make herself thin. It's the same with being gay; even if gay people could change, that doesn't mean they should. Just like how there's nothing wrong with weighing more than average so long as you're healthy, there's nothing wrong with being gay so long as it's who you naturally are. And in both cases, even if the teenage girl can lose weight and the gay person can become straight, they aren't the ones that should change; society should change. Once society starts looking at issue like weight or homosexuality or whatever rationally, people won't feel like they need to change and they can finally start to accept who they are and be happy about themselves. Anyway, if there was a way for gays be to become straight and they chose to take it, then fine, it's a free country, go ahead, just like how my hypothetical teenage girl has the right to obsessively become thing. It's just that I wouldn't advise it and I would never under any circumstance do it myself. I hope that made sense...

Just because it's hard doesn't make it impossible, and I'm not suggesting anyone should be 'hateful' towards people who are homosexual. Even if it is a sin, everyone sins so you have to treat them like everyone else, and if it is a sin then they should be helped out of it. If not, then I'll need a while to get used to the idea it's not before I can chime in with an opinion that way.

I don't think I'd say that, at least not that way. I don't really think you could've changed yourself, but I do think God could've changed you, and if it had been me, I would've put it in His hands and forgotton about it, because I would've figured as long as I gave it to Him it wasn't my problem. I think you were strong to try to change, but it had to be Him, not you.

I don't think you can make that call unless you're all-knowing. sweatdrop

No, I don't see that. I never claimed to be open-minded about the subject, and as for rational, I'm probably not most of the time. I don't see the point of pretending to be when most things regarding religion tend to be emotional and depend on the heart as well as the mind. Anyway, if God declares it's wrong there's gotta be a way out, and if not that I'll come to terms with that. Besides you we both know you can't provide me with absolute evidence on every case, so you can't declare an absolute like 'it's impossible'.

It did...but something feels wrong about the metaphor...
And if I was gay I'd take the medication in a heartbeat. I mean, it wouldn't be worth fighting society and my family and my upbringing and possibly my religion in my opinion. If there was a magic pill to make me stick thin, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You shouldn't fight for a part of yourself you don't like...

and now we go back to my original argument. WHY do you say homosexuality is a sin without proof?
I'm just saying, if you want a point, have a point first.
Can you argue that homosexuality is a sin and if not, than what else do you have?

When you explain to me why homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or you shouldn't be one, than we can talk. Till then, you are arguing in the clouds.

Just to get to the point incase you are wondering, I ask these things because if you want to get to the point on WHY homosexuals should be medicated or why they are wrong, ect, then we need a reason.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:24 pm


I still fight for the freedom to choose what you want to do for many reasons. A sample is below:

Quote:
I'm also gay which makes some Christians hate me. (Please don't try and change me)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:28 pm


Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?

caeruleus5765


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:35 pm


caeruleus5765
Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?

Any religious debates against Homosexuality is possibly Leviticus and not only is it complicated to read, it only applies to Judaism.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:49 pm


Boxy
Homosexuality Is Not Prohibited by the Christian Bible

This is a thesis I have to thank my old debating buddy, Ananel. To him I dedicate this infodump in memory of his former thesis, as well as to commemorate his service to M&R and the religious studies community at large. To him I say vale and wish him the best in whatever travails may befall him in his journeys through life, the universe, and everything. I hope that this thesis, though paltry it may be, meets his approval and the approval of the peer review process here in M&R.

I had stood firmly on the side against this very argument, but I came to the realization that the Bible just doesn't say anything about a practice that either (A) didn't exist back then, or (B) didn't attract Paul's criticism. People sometimes force interpretations on the Bible when it was never meant to mean that in the first place. To do so is dishonest at best and even blasphemous at worst. As the Bible admonishes, it's wrong to add to scripture.

Thus, the only conclusion that I have is that prohibitions against homosexuality depend on the tradition you partake in. As a Mormon, I recognize that my tradition doesn't view homosexuality very positively and asks people who attracted to the same gender to remain celibate and/or marry the opposite gender regardless. In the future, the Church may change its stance, but meh. It is my opinion that there are far worse problems in our society than who is sleeping with whom, so therefore I will focus my efforts on clarifying truth, giving meaningful service, and calling out people who are being dishonest and disseminating clearly incorrect information.

It is important to understand the basis of this argument, because people can and do make public policy decisions based off what they perceive as theological truth that is unforgiving. And, quite frankly, that is a position that is just not true. Personally, as a Mormon, I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't do in their own bedrooms, unless I happen to be a legal and ecclesiastical representative of the Church, which I'm not right now. And even if I did, the only purview I could have would be over people in my own faith and in my own congregation. Until that time, I will show an increase in love towards my friends who happen to have fallen in love (and truly love it is) and formed a strong bond that serves as the bedrock for a family.

Leviticus 18:22, 20:13

These can arguably refer to temple prostitution or other pagan fertility rituals, as a good deal of the Torah tends to. Doing so makes you unfit for Hebrew rituals. That is what is meant by "ritual uncleanness," which a Christian shouldn't care about.

Though the scripture does not reference a particular ritual it is forbidding, the culture context is more important to consider. Canaanite fertility cults abounded around the Hebrews, and such practices as boiling a goat in its mother's milk were primarily a response to Canaanite practices. I mean, come on -- some of these mitzvot just don't make sense all by themselves. However, it does make sense in the cultural context the Israelites were surrounded with.

"After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. ... (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled [i.e. made common] ) ... Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God." (Leviticus 18:3,27,30)

Clearly, these were all practices that the people before had done. As such, to distinguish the practice of worshiping YHWH from that of the Canaanite deities, he gives them prohibitions and actions that would make them "peculiar" (unique).


Chapter 20 of Leviticus also deals with various social and cultural practices which by banning would make the Israelites a completely distinct culture:

"And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. ... A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:6,27)

Again, this deals with distinguishing the Israelites from the Canaanites, rather than from the fundamental immorality of the thing. Their practices were foreign, and the Israelites had already dilluted their culture by staying in Egypt for too long. Was it possible for Israel to come up with its own culture? Yes, but it had to extinguish the Canaanite practices. This was all about nationalism and the need to establish a new society, not from the underlying problems with talking with supernatural entities and/or engaging in sexual relations with a person you love and cherish.

In any case, the concepts of ritual cleanliness are abolished completely by the New Testament. "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28 ) Thus, concepts of being unclean by virtue of disobeying specifics in Leviticus should be disregarded, since the concept of "cleanliness" is moot in Christianity.

The only thing that is important in Christianity is to have faith and to love one another. Peter again admonishes the early Church to not require the Gentiles to follow the Mosaic Law:

" 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
" (Acts 15:8-11)

Faith makes a person pure, and the witness of the Holy Ghost tells a person that their sins are forgiven. It is not a checklist of to-dos and not-to-dos -- which about half of the New Testament goes into agonizing details.

However, there are some things that are required of Christians:

" 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication [temple prostitution], and from things strangled, and from blood.
" (same chapter, vs. 18-20)

All of these elements have some sort of connection to pagan rites, whether through eating something offered to an idol or engaging in the celebration of a deity other than YHWH. As such, these are subject to smititude.

Over and over the writers of the New Testament preach against Christians having to obey the "law of the circumcision," which incorporates all the ritual requirements of the Mosaic Law, including the prohibitions against wearing garments of more than one material, of having sex with a woman on her period (i.e. in the "time of her uncleanness" ) and having to celebrate the Feasts of Passover, Tabernacles, and so forth (which were absolutely required by practicing Jews).

So, in summary: the New Testament is rife with statements that you don't have to obey the Mosaic Law. In fact, Paul goes one more and states that any and all commandments have to be relatable somehow to the one commandment: love thy neighbor as thyself (Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:13-14). In order to maintain that God is against homosexuality, you have to prove definitively that it fundamentally goes against the notion of loving your neighbor as yourself. Under consensual homosexuality, I find this prospect incredulous at best.

1 Corinthians 6:9

There's a number of problems with this scripture in 1 Corinthians. The best way to describe this is to refer back to the original Greek just to show how poorly understood this scripture really is.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakos], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [arsenokoitai] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Malakos means "catamite," which is a specific title of the submissive role in pedastery (which is nowadays considered *****). There's a problem of power disparity, as these young boys were often "submitting" to their professional mentors and masters so as to "learn the ways of the trade" of sex. This relationship had nothing at all to do with love (or even lust), and had more to do with learning sexual techniques and/or to gratify one's master.

Arsenokoites was a word of uncertain meaning, as the author was apparently coining the word as he wrote. It is a splicing-together of two words, arsenos meaning "man," and koites meaning "bed." It could mean two men in a bed, it could mean male prostitution (i.e. a woman inviting a man other than her husband into her bed), or it could mean a man alone in a bed engaging in sexual relations with himself. At various times, it has been translated as a temple prostitute, masturbator, those who are "morally soft" (i.e. wishy-washy), and even more curiously as "abuser of themselves with mankind" (which while adding content to the meaning, it does leave it accurately vague).

Here's a good source that goes into some detail:

ReligiousTolerance.org
I Corinthians 6:9 -- Sins that Paul believes will send you to Hell:

The author, Paul, listed a group of sinful activities. He believed that practicing any one of them would prevent a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God. They would be sent to Hell when they died. This verse has been translated in many ways among the 25 English versions of the Bible that we have analyzed.

One of the condemned behaviors is "malakoi arsenokoitai" in the original Greek. Malakoi means soft. It was translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. The actual meaning of arsenokoitai has been lost. Some sources in the early Church interpreted the phrase as referring to people of soft morals; i.e. exhibiting unethical behavior. That may well be the correct meaning, because presumably people from that era would probably have still known the meaning of the word "arsenokoitai." Others in the early Church thought that it meant "temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Still others thought that it meant "masturbators." At the time of Martin Luther, the latter meaning was in universal use. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior, whereas many Christians were concentrating on homosexuality as a despised activity. New Biblical translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967. 1

Each Bible translating team seems to take whatever activity that their group particularly disapproves of and inserts it into this verse. To compound their error, they usually do not have the decency to indicate by a footnote that the actual meaning of the word is unknown, and that they are merely guessing its meaning.

Conservative Christians tend to be very concerned about their own salvation and that of their family and friends. It is a pity that one of the behaviors that many Christians feel will cause them to lose their salvation is currently unknown. Many probably fear that they might inadvertently engage in the activity and thus having to spend eternity in Hell.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/masturba3.htm


This source also provides a good discussion on differing interpretations of malakos and arsenokoites. My point is that the words themselves are vague and open to interpretation, not "clear" or concise in any way, shape, or form. Pretty par for the course whenever Paul uses words outside of their original context and makes up new words altogether. I mean, he barely knew Greek and most of his grammar is stumbling and imprecise.

Or, to summarize my point: Paul knew exactly what he was talking about, but we don't really have any idea whatsoever. Whatever he meant has been appropriated by just about everyone to mean whatever vague sexual indiscretion they feel like lampooning at the moment -- whether temple prostitution, masturbation, and being wishy-washy -- or as John would say, "lukewarm" (Rev. 3:16). The current vogue is to lombast homosexuality because a number of Christians happen to like boys/girls/both.

If you wish to interpret arsenokoites as "a man engaging in homosexual relations in a loving, closed relationship," I could interpret it just as easily as "a man who is at any time in a bed doing anything, including sleeping." It just does not fit like some people want to force it to be.

Romans 1:26-28

I'm gonna go old school on this one, and quote Karashebi from 2004 (or earlier), who had an excellent response to this particular scripture:

Karashebi
Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.

One, we rarely take verses 26-27 in context with the rest of the passage. The lusts spoken of are the result of godlessness and the refusal of the gospel of God. The godless ones are described as being given over to their passions. This loss of control is key and important to the Greeks and Romans Paul is writing to, and was considered a very bad thing. It is important to realize that the passage is not centered on homosexual relations, no matter how you interpret it.

Two, the relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The term pushin is the Greek word for natural and refers, in general, to that which is according either to socially accepted morals or to one's innate nature. The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexual relationships to be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural to the Romans would specifically have been something where a citizen was "on bottom." Such a position degrades the citizen's status and was considered to be a horrible thing.

Three, the shameful lusts that are spoken of are not specifically described. Unlike Leviticus, where they are listed, the passage assumes that its audience knows what is being spoken of. While Paul is a born and trained Jew, familiar with the ceremonial law, he is preaching to newly converted Christians in Rome and Greece. These people, though somewhat familiar with Jewish beliefs, could not have been considered familiar enough to assume that "shameful lusts" meant what is said in Leviticus. Paul is not a man to leave explanations unclear. When necessary, he goes into great detail and repetition to make his point absolutely clear and understood. Therefore, by context it seems he is speaking to the Roman's understanding of shameful, the subjugation of a citizen for example. Further, pathos (lusts) does not necessitate a sexual connotation.

Four, the fact that we have women doing things with women instead of men and that we have men doing things with men instead of women is clear from what Paul says in verses However, Paul does not at any point say what is being done. He lacks the clarity of Leviticus. Any number of things could be occurring, and without a clear indication that the text is specifically speaking of homosexual sex acts on any level we are familiar with today we cannot claim that Romans 1 clearly declares that the ceremonial law still applies in this case.

My arguments are quite basic. This is only an overview of them. I have far more detailed descriptions of the issues involved and will happily offer them. This argument is also not new. You can find websites offering similar interpretations themselves. I came to these conclusions, however, through prayer and consideration with friends, not a website. These positions, also, are hardly universally accepted. There is strong evidence in both directions with regards Romans 1. Some churches still make the claim that parts of the ceremonial law remain intact. There are strong arguments for and against this

My single greatest point is this: Can you honestly declare something a sin when you cannot clearly show without serious contention that the Bible declares it to be a sin? When we look at the Ten Commandments, we know basically what they say and don't argue over them. Christ further explains them during his life, giving us more information about what they mean. We know these things to be sins, and there is little debate. Homosexual sex is found in the ceremonial laws and what few verses speak of it outside of that set of laws are hotly contested. How can we clearly state, based upon these facts, that homosexuality is indeed a sin?


Conclusion

The only conclusion that can be made is that the Bible does not speak against the practice of consensual homosexuality as we know it today. This is not to say that individual traditions can't make decisions about what their practicants should or shouldn't be doing -- however, the Bible is not an ironclad reference on this matter due to the reasons listed above. The Bible may very well be considered the very Word of God by any particular tradition, but to over-interpret it to the point of adding to what the Bible actually says is both dishonest and possibly blasphemous.

This is part of a long line of interpreting the Bible -- and particularly 1 Corinthians 6 -- in any way one sees fit to attack any given moral problem of their day. This is just downright dishonest, and although I can respect what their tradition asks of its members, I cannot in good conscience see this as any kind of a good justification for public policy decisions. We must stand up and acknowledge that members of our society have rights to participate in a communally-recognize institution which has been dominated by Judeo-Christian interpretations for the better part of two thousand years.

Just be honest about it. You may disagree with it, but don't lie about what the Bible says, because it might not say what you think it is. I hope and pray that we all take the study of our own and others' religions, worldviews, and philosophies with a grain of humility and deference, and that we acknowledge that from time to time we are, in fact, incorrect, and that the more bits of truth and reconciliation we gain, the greater this world will be.

rmcdra

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:00 am


caeruleus5765

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?

Well, if you want, there is a number of things you could do.
1. Convert to another religion. Although your religion, Christianity I presume, does not hate gays, it does kind of put gays into the point where they can't marry. You can convert into another religion so you can either marry or just live with sex and not marry. You probably wont convert, however.

2. Wait to marry. I'm fighting so people can marry and so far, some states can marry already and there are places were people can marry.

3. Have sex anyway. Although the Bible does speak of sex, it does not speak of gay sex. If you want, go ahead and have sex, mostly because it technically isn't sex from what the Bible says. It doesn't mean it is wrong but it technically doesn't make it sex.

There might be other ways but I'm not sure.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:17 am


caeruleus5765
Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?
Haha, you just happened to walk in to the biggest debate on homosexuality that this thread has seen since it was a baby, at least in my opinion.
There was actually a new thread made today concerning what Leviticus says about homosexuality and how it applies to Christianity here if you want to check it out.
But basically, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.

I'm an atheist, so I can't give you advice on how to be a good Christian and gay at the same time. What I can tell you is that most of the verses I've seen used to condemn homosexuality are either misinterpreted or taken out of context.
But other than that it's up to you to decide what's right.

brainnsoup
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comfylove

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:26 am


rmcdra
comfortably_dumb
Can we really "fix" it? Because we will always sin.
We can with God's help and forgiveness.
Quote:
I do think that sin for Christians and sin for non-Christians is very different; when we sin, we are supposed to hate the sin and hate when we are in sin.
Okay
Quote:
However, sins of the flesh are very natural due to the Fall, like you said.
Actually no they are not if we are going to argue from theology.
Quote:
It is our nature to go after sinful things because they are attractive.
No we have a desire to sin because we have a desire to be disobedient if we are going to argue from theology.
Quote:
Sex looks nice, non-Christians are attractive, getting drunk with friends looks like a good time, etc. Sin is definitely glamorized.
These things are only sins when not taken in moderation or not done in the proper context FYI.

Quote:
Isn't it healthy to want to be sinful in some respects? I am saying, isn't it healthy and normal to want to have sex before you're married? Isn't it healthy and normal to want to drink on occasion? Isn't it healthy and normal to lust after things once and a while?
The thing is though the things you are listing are drives that can be redirected. You don't have to suppress those urges to overcome them. With homosexual attraction, to say the attraction is a sin would force a person to lie to themselves in order to overcome it. They literally must suppress it because even if they don't act upon it or redirect that urge, they still feel it. Sexual urge =/= lust.

Quote:
I do not think we should classify things by what is "normal and healthy" of this world. As Christians, we are not of this world, and living by its standards, I think, will only promote sin.
I'm talking about what has been proven true by science as normal and healthy (since science is based on reason and reason is a divine gift from God), not what societally is accepted as normal and healthy. They are not the same thing
The Bible does say that we will always sin, Robbie. I do not see how you think we can "fix" it. Sure, we can repent for our sins, and we are forgiven, and therefore blameless, but we'll always be sinning.

And sin is not natural? Sin is attractive, and to say that it is not -- then why is sin such a huge problem? Why would we need to ask for forgiveness and repent if we can just overcome these sins? Why do they exist in the first place? I do not understand your theology here. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:22 am


comfortably_dumb
The Bible does say that we will always sin, Robbie. I do not see how you think we can "fix" it. Sure, we can repent for our sins, and we are forgiven, and therefore blameless, but we'll always be sinning.
Do you not believe in eternal life? When we enter the Kingdom through Christ we cannot sin anymore. Thus it is fixed.

Quote:
And sin is not natural?
Sin and death were not God's creation. They are very unnatural.
Quote:
Sin is attractive, and to say that it is not -- then why is sin such a huge problem?
Sin is a problem because it is our tragic struggle with obeying and disobeying God. You are very talented at putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
Why would we need to ask for forgiveness and repent if we can just overcome these sins?
Through Christ we will. When we inter the Kingdom we do.
Quote:
Why do they exist in the first place?
Because of our prime parents disobedience
Quote:
I do not understand your theology here. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
What are you missing? God didn't make sin and death, they are consequences of the Fall, therefore they are unnatural. If you want to show that homosexual attraction is a sin then show me a verse stating it is

The examples you were giving as sins are only sins in extreme circumstances. Sex is okay when you are married. Non-Christians are sanctified through their Christian spouses. There's nothing against drinking alcohol but there is commandments about not being drunk. There's a time for us to be with our friends and there's a time for us to be with God. For these things to become sins we would have to take them to the extreme. This is why temperance is a virtue.

rmcdra

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Captain_Shinzo

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:23 pm


Captain_Shinzo
gohst13
Captain_Shinzo
gohst13
brainnsoup
Oh, I know, I agree with you. I'm just adding my opinions.
Though I wouldn't get my hopes up for an unbiased, objective reason why we shouldn't legalize gay marriage. I don't think one exits.
There is no logical unbiased opinion on a subject like this. Even Captain_Shinzo has to agree with this. With a subject like this all people can really do is act the way they think they should. People seem to do what they have deluded into being right...

The point was that there is no reason for Homosexuality being wrong as you said.
But even if you said, as I have read
"People just need to follow their gut."
Problem is, that is pretty wrong.
As I have stated, way way back, people thought blacks should stay segregated in building and facilities. A vast majority thought this. But just because they think this doesn't make it right.
Get what I am saying? If there is no reason to keep homosexuals from marriage, than why do it?
Yes I get what you're saying Shinzo, and oddly I agree with you. But again it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. People do what THEY believe is right, it doesn't exactly mean that it's right to everyone else. It's about opinion, not mush else.

Well if it's about opinions then opinions can get thrown away for all I care. People can't give me a true reason why homosexuality is wrong. If all they tell me 'it's just not right' than it may be an opinion, but it doesn't make it fact. For all I know, homosexuality is not morally wrong because it does not harm anyone. In thus case, it is a fact and not an opinion. Besides, we don't believe in the opinions of science.

Still waiting for your reply.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:35 pm


brainnsoup
caeruleus5765
Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?
Haha, you just happened to walk in to the biggest debate on homosexuality that this thread has seen since it was a baby, at least in my opinion.
There was actually a new thread made today concerning what Leviticus says about homosexuality and how it applies to Christianity here if you want to check it out.
But basically, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.

I'm an atheist, so I can't give you advice on how to be a good Christian and gay at the same time. What I can tell you is that most of the verses I've seen used to condemn homosexuality are either misinterpreted or taken out of context.
But other than that it's up to you to decide what's right.

Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians? I thought that all books in the Bible cannon applied to Christians?

caeruleus5765


rmcdra

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:53 pm


caeruleus5765
brainnsoup
caeruleus5765
Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?
Haha, you just happened to walk in to the biggest debate on homosexuality that this thread has seen since it was a baby, at least in my opinion.
There was actually a new thread made today concerning what Leviticus says about homosexuality and how it applies to Christianity here if you want to check it out.
But basically, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.

I'm an atheist, so I can't give you advice on how to be a good Christian and gay at the same time. What I can tell you is that most of the verses I've seen used to condemn homosexuality are either misinterpreted or taken out of context.
But other than that it's up to you to decide what's right.

Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians? I thought that all books in the Bible cannon applied to Christians?
If it did then Christ sacrifice was in vain. It and the rest of the OT was included for historical purposes to show how great Christ's sacrifice was.

Leviticus is a book about priestly conduct and had a few sections on moral codes for the congregation but the question rises if these moral purity codes should be followed since Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and that the Law of Agape, Christ's greatest commandment, should be followed first and foremost.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:50 pm


caeruleus5765
brainnsoup
caeruleus5765
Yay... a topic on gay people.

I just got here, but it seems like you already talked about Leviticus. Isn't that the one that condemned gay sex? I'm interested to hear your interpretation on this. Gay love seems to be legal, but gay people don't seem to be allowed to express it. I find this particular rule disturbing.

I'm totally gay, and that means that I don't have any romantic feelings for females. It just never developed with me. I can't just pray the gay away, I'm stuck this way. This rule seems to say that I'm cursed to die a virgin, even if I find the one I truly love.

There are many straight guys who have sex with girls outside of marriage. The sins seem similar, but in the end they're still sins. I can't knowingly sin against god, and I also don't want to be a 70 year old on the purity pledge.

Any advice?
Haha, you just happened to walk in to the biggest debate on homosexuality that this thread has seen since it was a baby, at least in my opinion.
There was actually a new thread made today concerning what Leviticus says about homosexuality and how it applies to Christianity here if you want to check it out.
But basically, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.

I'm an atheist, so I can't give you advice on how to be a good Christian and gay at the same time. What I can tell you is that most of the verses I've seen used to condemn homosexuality are either misinterpreted or taken out of context.
But other than that it's up to you to decide what's right.

Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians? I thought that all books in the Bible cannon applied to Christians?
Nope. If you haven't already, I recommend you read Leviticus start to finish. The Christians who use Leviticus 20:13 to prove that homosexuality is wrong tend to forget the parts about keeping kosher and making animal sacrifices...
A lot of the OT doesn't make sense until you put it in context. Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.

brainnsoup
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WickedRentSpringAwakening

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:56 pm


rmcdra
Leviticus is a book about priestly conduct and had a few sections on moral codes for the congregation but the question rises if these moral purity codes should be followed since Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and that the Law of Agape, Christ's greatest commandment, should be followed first and foremost.


Whose to say which ones are the moral codes and which ones are the priestly or traditional codes? I know there has been a huge council that tried to determine that, but really, you are having a bunch of people pick out which verses are the moral ones, you know how troubling that is going to be. There is going to be all kinds of agendas going on there.

(Devil's advocate)

Plus... Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, so the law is in some affect still in effect for Christians.
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