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Gaia's world martial artist tournament that pits the best fighters against one another for the title of Gaia's Best! 

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Absolute Virtue

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:00 pm


Sigil Warden
By the way, what Red is doing in the fight there is not very effective. Holding your sword arm out like that is difficult and makes any strike from it particularly weak. Razel could probably push the blade aside with his arm and mosey on through without even trying.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself with a broom handle or something.


Don't worry, Afton is waaaaaaaaay too strong for that to happen. Just getting grazed by his attack could cleave ten cows, cubed.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:04 pm


Does it matter? If I find the characters or general feel of the story to be too boring to bother with, then it doesn't matter if they get "more interesting" "later." It's purely subjective - if I find a character uninteresting, no one can tell me I'm wrong for having my own opinion based on my own personal taste.

Maybe it does get more interesting, I don't know. But if a book's not interesting until the last ten pages, do I really want to read the other three hundred just to see if I find those last ten pages interesting?

Of course not. No one is really going to want to invest the time to trudge through a significant portion of something they find unenjoyable in the hopes that it gets better. If they don't enjoy it, they're probably going to find something they DO enjoy reading/watching/playing. I might go through a few initial issues/episodes/etc to see if it gets better, but honestly if something doesn't pique my interest within the first.. five or six episodes or issues, then I see no reason to continue on.

And obviously, it's subjective - other people might find it interesting. Good for them, I'm glad they enjoy it; they're entitled to their opinion and their enjoyment in their choice of entertainment. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for liking it. But for me, personally? No. I don't find really ANY of the characters to be that interesting, and in some cases (read as: Naruto and Sasuke) to actually be annoying enough to turn me off from continuing reading. I got about five episodes in and I just found that it wasn't drawing my interest, so it made no sense to keep watching something I don't enjoy, that's like continuing to eat a plate of food I clearly dislike.

Again, purely subjective, but it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that people honestly dislike something for wholly legitimate - if subjective - reasons that don't involve drawing on pre-emptive assumptions.

EDIT:: Like I said, if the manga is a bit darker, I'd probably take a look at it. I just didn't really have my interest piqued by the atmosphere or characters as they were in the anime. I've seen some Shippuden episodes, but they didn't do much for me either. Just not my cup of tea.

The Thunder Tyrant


Vintrict
Captain

Omnipresent Poster

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:00 pm


emotion_bandaid
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:25 pm


The Darth Vizzle


I for one have never quit on an anime out of the 300 or so I've watched after starting v.v The exception being Nadesco on the first episode because it just failed...

Still, I know I'm weird for that and yes I know everyone is entitled to their opinions and some people won't like it. Really, the original point I was making was when Sigil claimed it to be a BAD anime which I can easily say non subjectively, that is overall, it is a good anime. I just wanted to make that clear before starting some other rant directed towards you like I normally tend to do which never helps things...

Now then, on to the point of me TRYING to prove that no one has a worthwhile opinion and that it's all just cases of being close minded ^.^ I don't know if I actually believe this, and I have never thought of it before but I may as well argue for it...

Nah... I dont buy it....

Anyway, you say five episodes...? That's not really enough to judge a 500 episode anime... Still, if you don't wish to have anything to do with it that is fine to, my arguments are only directed towards those who come out saying it's garbage/horrible or disgraceful, etc.

5567_No_Okami

Beloved Lunatic


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:05 pm


You can't objectively (i.e. factually, without relying on opinion or subjective taste) call it good OR bad.

Good and bad are opinions. What's good to Jim might be bad to Tom. There is no objectivity; something is good because you like it or it's bad because you dislike it. You could talk maybe about the animation quality, or the production values, or something like that, but as to whether something is good or bad is just one's opinion.

When someone says something is bad or awful, that's just their opinion. There's nothing objective about it; it's silly to pretend otherwise.

And it doesn't matter how long a series is; see the book analogy I made. If I crack open a five hundred page book and read the first chapter and don't really care much for the way the book is written or the way a couple of the main characters are portrayed, then I'm probably not going to enjoy the other ten chapters of the book because there's not going to be a complete turn-around. If I have some fundamental issue with what I'm reading or watching, it makes absolutely no sense to keep wasting my time to see if it gets any better. If there's no draw, nothing piquing my interest.. then I'm not going to waste my time with it.

For example: Twilight. I don't know much about the story. I picked it up, read about five pages. I found Meyer's writing style completely atrocious. Reading more of the book isn't going to change that because I fundamentally don't like it.

It's the same way with an anime. It can have five or fifty or five hundred episodes, but if I don't like the main protagonist or the story that's being put in front of me, then none of that matters because I'm not going to invest the time to find out if something is enjoyable if I've already found my first foray into it to be unpalatable. Again, if I pick up a three hundred page book and read fifteen pages and hate it, I'm not going to keep reading to see if it gets better. I'll go read something I do like. It's a better investment of my time. It doesn't make sense to keep watching/reading something if you don't derive any enjoyment from it.

Bleach is another anime I didn't like. I thought I would when I saw the first episode, honestly, but after watching about fifteen or so I wasn't interested enough to continue watching. Again, investiture of time - I'd rather invest my time doing something I find enjoyable or productive, rather than invest it in doing something I don't.

That being said, I don't watch a huge amount of anime anyways. The only anime I can think of that I can honestly say I really, REALLY liked was Cowboy Bebop, because I'm a huge fan of jazz and with the general character/art/story direction that series took. That and the Akira movie.

EDIT:: There's quite a few manga I've enjoyed though. Grappler Baki, Vagabond, Fist of the North Star, Historie, Hellsing, probably some others I can't recall.

EDIT2:: ******** SHAMO. Favorite manga ever.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:20 pm


@Virtue: The answer to just about all of what you said is that one cannot misrepresent something that has not been represented. You can't describe incorrectly what hasn't beed described in the first place. Purely reading this one thread, I see that a character is dodging in your posts. In hers, I see that the character is not dodging well, and has been pressed into defending, is merely getting lucky with his dodges, and that the defeat of Afton's opponent is inevitable in the face of a skilled foe.

Since these are the only in fight details, the reader is forced to conclude that what Red says is accurate. And since you want us to read your fights, why didn't you read Afton's fights to learn about him? You asked a lot of questions about what you didn't see in the thread, but didn't do any reading.

The answer to the rest of it is a different question. If she hasn't included the details that matter, why haven't you asked for her to include those details? Why did you respond if you didn't understand her action sufficiently?

@everyone: I never really 'got' Naruto either. It seemed like it was a bit thrown together at first to me, but maybe that's because I watched the dubs on Cartoon Network.

Fighting Fefnir

Perfect Winner


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:28 pm


It doesn't really matter how she describes her opponent, because we don't dictate anything about the person we fight.

If someone ducks or dodges an attack, I don't get to dictate that it was a close dodge. That's for them to dictate, and if they don't.. then nothing I say really matters.

Otherwise you'd have people constantly talking about how much of a bumbling retard their opponent is. Well, more than they do already.

Point being, it has no real impact. A person can describe their opponent or their opponent's actions however they like, it really doesn't - or shouldn't - have any real influence on how things are viewed; that should be determined by what's actually happening in the fight. The fact that my character finds something an opponent does to be cowardly, for example, doesn't mean anything. If my character thinks they're fighting like a complete novice.. it doesn't mean anything, no matter how much or how consistently I try to describe them as such.

EDIT:: Also, just a suggestion: if you can't seriously have a good fight, then you both might as well call it right now and just leave it to the judges, because things will go nowhere but down, and there's no point in continuing if you can't work together without constantly bickering or without mutual respect.

I can tell you right now, from a judge's perspective, that there's nothing worse than reading a fight that's going downhill fast and where neither person is doing anything worthwhile.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:39 pm


When someone doesn't describe how they dodge or attack, where I come from, they tell you to describe it, and if your opponent makes you out as an incompetent, it's a fact, because you didn't tell us how you did it.

Does it matter? No, the dodge still happens. Does it matter? Yes, it portrays the character in a different light for the reader.

Generally, if details of how something is done are included, no one will make you seem like an idiot.

There's a difference between what a character thinks and what an author describes. Afton might see the action as deception. The author is saying that it IS clumsy. Who's to say they're wrong if no one says how the action happens?

Fighting Fefnir

Perfect Winner


5567_No_Okami

Beloved Lunatic

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:54 pm


Well I can't stand books... Er, most books in the first place so I only bother with ones I like. As for anime, well I think you should be able to tell if it's worthwhile or not based on a PV. For me, once I start watching I've made a commitment to that anime and would feel bad if I stopped watching, though I know that's just me.

Also Fenrir, what she's doing is god modding, nothing more and nothing less. The ONLY person who has authority of what their character can do is them. For her to place any detail into his character that he left out is unethical roleplaying. Anything and everything that he left out that she did not understand should be directed at him in the form of a question, as said in the rules of the guild. Now the reason this is unethical is pretty clear, it leads to what's going to be a very, very shitty fight, an obviously shitty fight. If she posts like normal, doesn't GM his character, she'll probably win and I'll actually enjoy reading the fight, however if she keeps this up she WILL lose. I'm not exactly mad or anything, this is just what I see coming if this keeps up.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:57 pm


I already told you how to spell my name, and I already explained to you exactly why, when you said the exact same thing before, you were incorrect.

Fighting Fefnir

Perfect Winner


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:01 pm


Yeah. Forewarning for HoH, that doesn't fly. Using the general you here (as in, talking broadly, not about you specifically, FF) Telling your opponent how their character works or thinks or acts is a no-no, even if they leave it out. Your character can THINK or CONSIDER their opponent to be a clumsy git, but you cannot write in your own posts "John is fighting Jim, who is clearly a clumsy ******** git." Their character, their right to describe him/her/it. Consider it a "writer's right" - they can choose to exercise it or to NOT exercise it, and the latter isn't permission for the other person to do so. Their character, it's for them to dictate the particulars of their character, not yours.

If I have the right to bear arms, but choose to not buy a gun.. you don't get to decide to do so for me, in my name, simply because I chose to NOT exercise that right. The right is still mine - I exercise it when I want to, and if I don't want to then I don't. Same concept with a car. If we both own cars, you don't get to tell me how to drive my car; it's MY car, I'll drive it how I want unless I break the law. It's not even logical, to me.

This isn't a game of fill in the blanks. It's competitive, but it's also collaborative. If you're opponent chooses to be sparse in their fluff descriptions.. that's their choice in writing style. It's not your place to dictate otherwise. They write how they want, unless it actually interferes with your ability to discern what's happening. If it doesn't do that, then it's not your business to say who their character is, what they do, or how well they do it.

A worse offense - and one likely to earn punishment via the Sportsmanship category in HoH - is when an opponent doesn't provide important details of how or why an attack or defensive maneuver was made, and their opponent goes "Oh it wasn't explained so it didn't happen."

Good way to watch your score plummet, that.

The reason for this is that, regardless of how often we butt heads or argue, we're still supposed to be reasonable adults. Good sportsmanship is supposed to exist between players, even players who might not necessarily like each other. Dictating details of another person's character is a good way to piss someone off because it's their character, not yours, and frankly it serves no other purpose beyond creating antagonism. Conflict leads to resolution, but antagonism just leads to more issues. Former can be good, latter is almost always bad.

I mean, we can all be pretty antagonistic as s**t towards each other, and if you've been around you've seen some of us (especially Vin and I if you look at the original GTB V thread that got closed) will really butt heads pretty vociferously. We definitely don't coddle people, but when it comes to being participants in tournaments, there is a certain amount of respect that people are expected to adhere to, if not because it's useful in avoiding unnecessary bullshit, then because people ought to act like reasonable adults without pettily sniping at each other in their posts.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:18 pm


I can accept that as a much better explaination. To a certain extent, I agree. I would say that, as much as I think you're correct in that explaination, it still has a problem, and that problem is a lack of cooperation.

As antagonistic as Red and I and Virtue are, she did want more details to work off of and did ask for them. Virtue refused to provide any information, saying that he had said everything he wanted. Consider this a defense to exactly what my method is used to discourage: A says they jump backward, B says they step forward and attack, A says that they jumped back 50 feet so B's attack misses. Adding details on the fly to gain an advantage. What Red did was provide solid details for exactly what Razel did so that Virtue could't add those details later. Sure, she made him look stupid, but that's frustration talking. The important part was emphasizing how close Razel was when he dodged.

For what you're saying to be valid, Vintrict would need to repeal his "Virtue doesn't need to have more details" ruling. Otherwise all he has to do is insert the information in later posts in response to whatever is thrown at him and refuse to provide said details when asked.

Fighting Fefnir

Perfect Winner


The Thunder Tyrant

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:29 pm


If person A doesn't think person B gave enough relevant details, then that would be an instance where person A should request a judge.

If the judge says that more detail is needed, then person B ought to oblige.

However. If the judge rules that there IS enough detail, then person A should go ahead and post as best they can.

If the judge rules in favor of person B, that's not an excuse for person A to just fill in the blanks as they see fit just because the judge didn't see it their way.

That's the thing with going to a judge. It can go either way. Now, a judge can be wrong; they're only human, but unless it's a really serious issue, then I've always believed that it's best to try and roll along with what you're given if the judgment doesn't fall in your favor.

It's the same thing with winning or losing a close fight. Personally, I can't stand when someone loses a fight and decides that the judges are wrong because the judges didn't deem said person the winner. If you lose and there's no outstanding, glaring mistake made on the part of the judges, then accept it with some modicum of good sportsmanship and grace.

That being said, if there's a clear lack of logic or a big mistake in reasoning that contributed to the judges' decision in a fight's outcome or in a particular situation, then that would be a reasonable time to argue. If a judge makes a decision based on misreading something, for example. People have a right to argue to their case, but only to a certain point. At some point you're either going to have to go "No I don't agree and I'm not going to continue" or go with the decision.

I've always been a proponent of people being allowed to defend their points or statements and that while authority has the last say, it ought to be willing to accept that it's made a wrong decision, and it ought to consider popular opinion. However, like I said, in the end if the judge is adamant in their decision the only viable options are a) to drop the topic and continue or b) consider the issue to be important enough to warrant ceasing your participation. I'm not in favor of absolute authority when it comes to things of this nature; I've always been more in favor of classical liberalism and a democratic, flexible approach.

Just saying, it really boils down to those two options when you agree to abide by a judge's decisions.

Also, my suggestion still stands. If they're just going to be antagonistic towards each other, they're better off mutually agreeing to stop the fight where it is.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:40 pm


Let me see if I get this straight.

First, one should ask for details. Check. Refused.

Then, if one cannot get the details, they should go to a judge. Check. Denied.

Then, one should post as best as they can with the information they have. Check. Opponent called for removal from fight.

But one should NOT protect themself from abuse of a lack of detail in the future by providing information to fill in the gaps, because this is cooperative and there should be respect, and you should just ask for details.

I hope you see how this goes in a circle.

Fighting Fefnir

Perfect Winner


5567_No_Okami

Beloved Lunatic

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:42 pm


Vizzle just repeated me with more Fluff... I said it's unethical and god modding their character... He said its acting like a baby and... Well... God modding their character. I didn't add the fluff because this stuff is common sense, Out of my eight or so years of constant roleplaying I have yet to run into a roleplay where god modding someone elses character was okay... In your example you left out what Vizzle brought up. Their are judges, there's no reason to b***h about missing details because if some idiot actually tries to abuse the fact they didnt specify how far they jumped back they will be SLAMMED in judging. In otherwords, as Vizzle said, go with the flow cuz judges arent idiots v.v

Also, you may as well consider Fenrir my pet name for you because its alreeady programmed into my fingers...
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