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darkphoenix1247
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:22 pm


MasterPerks
If I could ask this, just as a topic of interest, if you were not brought up in the Jewish tradition, do you think you would still have found your way to that religion?


Interesting question, but my answer is yes. As many already know, I was brought up in a Jewish family. But, as time went on, most of my family grew very unreligious. 2 are atheists right now (both of which are anti-religion, actually), one doesn't really care about following beliefs and such, and I'm basically the only person that actually believes in it enough to follow it, except maybe my mom. I have looked at other beliefs, I've researched a bit into a select few even, but I've always felt a connection to Judaism. Yes, that's probably because I was raised in a culturally Jewish family, but I chose to become more involved religiously.

I can never be certain, but I'd like to think I'd have found my way here eventually.

And Raito, have some tact. You may not agree with it yourself, but don't rag on others beliefs. We respect yours, and I think we deserve the same.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:27 pm


I suspect if I hadn't found my way into Jewish life and observance, I'd have become a Muslimah. Monotheism suits me well.

Divash
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LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:50 pm


If I didn't come back to Judiasm, I probably would still be a Discordian or part of the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:52 pm


LordNeuf
Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Interestingly enough, that's my backup plan. xp

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Divash
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:26 pm


I've heard "Flying Spaghetti Monster" before, on a (non-Gaia) bulletin board where I hang out. Interesting that someone here also uses the phrase.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:50 pm


Thank you all for your personal stories (especially Divash, that was a rather insightful look into your person). I was pondering my own question as it pertained to Christianity, and I believe that I would end up either in Judaism or Christanity. However, this does not have much to do with my next question. In Christanity, we are taught that Jesus is our savior from sin. That He (sorry if the capitalization offended anyone) is our atonement from sin. How do those in the Jewish community view Christanity in this respect? Do they believe it is "worshiping" a false God? Would that make Christians Cult-ists in that respect from the Jewish view-point? (This question was prompted after thinking about sin atonement processes for each respective tradition).

MasterPerks


LordNeuf
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:26 pm


Divash
I've heard "Flying Spaghetti Monster" before, on a (non-Gaia) bulletin board where I hang out. Interesting that someone here also uses the phrase.


For those of you without knowledge of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, let me explain.

CoFSM was created by Bobby Henderson in 2005 in reponse to the Kansas Board of Education's decision that creationism would be taught in science class as evolution's counterpoint.

He claimed that he had a theroy of intellegent design that he wanted introduced to the curiculum. That in the beginning, all was null and void, until the Flying Spaghetti Monster reached his noodly apendage of goodness down to the earth and created life.

He drew trees and mountains on the back of a cocktail napkin with the Flying Spaghetti Monster reaching down to them as proof of "sacred texts."

Thus creating The CoFSM otherwise known as "Pastafarianism."

Pastafarians also believe that Global Warming is real and that it is caused due to a lack of pirates in the oceans of the world. They have a graph showing the historic decline of piracy and how it's inversely perportional to the rise in global temperatures.

Basically Pastafarianism is the new Sub-Genius (Another anti-religion religion that believed the way to purity was to aquire money and slack off and wait for the world to end on July 5th 1998. I'll get into that later.) It's a non-sensical religion with a philosophy of "science is the only truth, all faith beliefs can be countered, contradicted, and ridiculed." It's been a rally point for people, especially young people, to show their distain for the goverment using religion to counter scientific development. (see : Stem Cell Research, Abstenence Programs, & Creationism.)

And now... back to the topic.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:41 pm


MasterPerks
How do those in the Jewish community view Christanity in this respect? Do they believe it is "worshiping" a false God? Would that make Christians Cult-ists in that respect from the Jewish view-point? (This question was prompted after thinking about sin atonement processes for each respective tradition).


"You shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the feelings of the stranger, having yourselves been strangers in the land of Egypt." (Ex 22:20 & 23:9)

Important rules are usually repeated in the Torah.

In short "You're not our people, we will not question your beliefs, or what you do."

Shame that early christians basically threw out the Mosaic laws and followed only laws in the New Testament, hence the meal featuring a "festive christmas ham."

Christianity and Judaism have been two separate circles ever since Clovis Converted the Franks and most of Western Europe in the 5th century. We do not consider Christianity a cult, as that would be an admission that you're part of Judaism.

Remember, these are my beliefs, I do not speak for anyone else.

LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:43 pm


MasterPerks
Thank you all for your personal stories (especially Divash, that was a rather insightful look into your person). I was pondering my own question as it pertained to Christianity, and I believe that I would end up either in Judaism or Christanity. However, this does not have much to do with my next question. In Christanity, we are taught that Jesus is our savior from sin. That He (sorry if the capitalization offended anyone) is our atonement from sin. How do those in the Jewish community view Christanity in this respect? Do they believe it is "worshiping" a false God? Would that make Christians Cult-ists in that respect from the Jewish view-point? (This question was prompted after thinking about sin atonement processes for each respective tradition).


How do Jews atone for their sins/transgressions/wrondoing?

Quoting from http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq042.html :

Question: Following the Temple destruction in 70 C.E. did rabbinic Judaism substitute a non-biblical atonement system?

Answer: Biblically, the optimum means for attaining atonement consists of both animal sacrifices and sincere confessionary repentant prayer used in conjunction with each other. Traditional Judaism looks forward to the restoration of the dual system working simultaneously--animal sacrifice and contrite prayer.

The rabbis under the leadership of Yohanan ben Zakkai did not make an unscriptural substitution when they emphasized sincere confessionary repentant prayer as a means of obtaining atonement. The Bible already mandated sincere confessionary repentant prayer, as a proper vehicle for attaining forgiveness. In the biblical period atonement prayer was used with full divine sanction, with or without animal offerings (even for non-Jews-- Jonah 3:5-10).

Sincere confessionary repentant prayer is the primary biblical prescription for obtaining atonement when animal sacrifices cannot be offered concurrently. Animal sacrifices are only prescribed for unwitting or unintentional sin (shogeg)--Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:5, 15 (cf. Numbers 15:30). The one exception is if an individual swore falsely to acquit himself of the accusation of having committed theft (Leviticus 5:24-26). Intentional sin can only be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice- Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19.

Giving charity is a material expression of this inner repentance that is articulated in the rabbinic formula: "Prayer, repentance, and charity avert the evil decree" (T.J. Ta'anit 2:1, 65b). This is based on the verse: "If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Although following 70 C.E., historical conditions made it impossible to continue the sacrificial system no innovation was necessary, only a readjustment of what already existed. During the Babylonian exile the captive Israelites repented and were allowed to return to their homeland. Yet, they had no means of offering a blood sacrifice; they could only offer contrite repentant prayer. According to 1 Maccabees (cf. 1:54, 4:52) valid sacrifices in the Temple were discontinued for three years (168-165 B.C.E.). This meant those loyal to God could not offer personal atonement sacrifices in the Temple. During these periods of time, no Temple sacrifice was possible, and Jesus had not yet died to provide the supposed everlasting means of atonement. A grave problem arises: Did God leave these Jews in their sins, with no means whatsoever for atonement? Did He demand the impossible of them? The answer was given by God Himself to the Jewish exiles in Babylonia, and its message echoes across the centuries: "And you shall call upon Me, and go, and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you. And you shall seek Me, and find Me, when you shall search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13).

Thus, we see that the Temple's destruction necessitated a modification of the already existing atonement process. However, this change did not include a radical alteration of its universally applied core element--sincere repentant confessionary prayer coming from the contrite heart. The direction and form of that modification was already given in the Hebrew Scriptures. The rabbis, under Yohanan ben Zakkai's leadership, did exactly what the Bible commands for such times when the full atonement service cannot be offered.

No dilemma is posed by the inability to offer animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. Emphasis is now placed on the repentant prayer component of the sacrificial ceremony. Biblically, confessionary repentant prayer can and does satisfy all the criteria necessary for attaining God's forgiveness even without the presence of a blood atonement sacrifice. What does the ability to use prayer alone show? The very existence of repentant prayer as a biblically proper vehicle for attaining atonement emphasizes, of itself, the fact that God has never left His people without the means for atoning for sin. As God had always permitted, and continues to do, one may come before Him with confession and repentance in contrite prayer.

The biblical and post-biblical evidence shows that God has never abandoned Israel. b. It is quite evident that even without the sacrificial system of the Temple service forgiveness of sin is still attainable through the biblically prescribed method of using sincere confessionary repentant prayer alone. The rabbis were absolutely correct in following the biblically prescribed method that is to be followed when no blood sacrifice offering is possible. The rabbis, in conformity with the biblical summons, bid the Jewish people to make confessionary repentant prayer as an atonement offering to God. Repentant prayer, the offering of the lips, is not a man-made alternative to offering a blood sacrifice; it is an essential biblical mainstay of God's relationship with Israel.


Content Copyright Gerald Sigal, 1999-2003

Do Jews believe that Christianity is worshipping a false god?

Some do; some don't. For those who do, the reasons are many. First of all, Judaism teaches that Hashem is non-corporeal, that no physical form could contain Hashem. It also teaches that just as Hashem has no beginning or end, Hashem also has no equal, no superior, and no second-in-command. There is no one who is beside Hashem. We, as Jews, are commanded not to worship any but Hashem. "I am Hashem, your G*D. You shall have no other gods before me." Nevertheless, the Noachides (descendants of Noah, i.e. everyone, who aren't Jewish) are not forbidden to worship other deities -- only to deny the reality of Hashem. In other words, acknowledge that Hashem exists, but go worship as you see fit, unless you specifically have taken on the worship and duties of a practicing Noachide/ger tzedek/righteous gentile (that is, a follower of the Jewish teachings that apply to non-Jews).

Is Christianity a cult, according to Judaism?

I haven't heard many Jews refer to Christianity as a cult, only as something that is wholly inappropriate for a Jew to practice or profess.

I'm left-handed. For me to write with my right hand is possible... but it feels unnatural, and I'd be unhappy if made to do this. Despite the fact that it's the natural way for the majority of the world's human population to operate, it's entirely backward and inappropriate for me and the other 5% of the world who are also left-handed. You can think of it this way for Jews, too. Despite other deities feeling natural for some to worship, despite other worship styles or patterns being more appealing or appropriate to some others, we in our small minority are more natural when we follow the ways that we were born to follow instead of succumbing to the majority's ways.

I don't think any left-hander feels that right-handers are wrong, per se, though some may resent the fact that most objects are designed with the righty in mind. We just want to be able to find left-handed scissors, can openers, calligraphy pens, and lefty-grip chainsaws when we have need of these things. You could look at it this way for Jews, too. Though we may sometimes resent the fact that our small numbers make it less easy to get by in the non-Jewish world, most of us don't think other religions are inherently wrong for their adherents. We just want to be able to observe our own faith without being molested or having laws passed against our forms of worship.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:05 pm


Thanks all for your continued understanding of my questioning. As of right now, I believe that my questions have run short, but I am sure that I can have some soon biggrin . Please feel free to ask me any questions that might be in your mind about Christanity. I am continuing my education at Asbury College in Wilmore Kentucky, and plan to continue studies at their or another theological seminary. Not to sound or be out of place, but this has helped me in my understand of G-D [G*d] (sorry, I don't want to offend anyone) and am now practicing a more active faith rather than just attending services because "that's something that I should do...". Have a good evening!

MasterPerks


LordNeuf
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:34 pm


MasterPerks
Please feel free to ask me any questions that might be in your mind about Christanity.


What flavor of christian are you? Methodist? Baptist? Catholic? Mormon? and why are you that flavor instead of one of the others?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:04 pm


This morning we were on the boat, (I went camping), and a friend of a friend was staying with us and randomly asked me what Jews believe. I yammered for about 15 minutes and she was just like,"OH."

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Divash
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:50 pm


I'm glad you're open to those questions, Perks. I suspect you'll get more questions if we come to a Christian guild, since this guild's purpose is to discuss Judaism. Also, because we Jews are surrounded by a predominantly Christian culture, those of us who live in the Western world, we kind of have a pretty good idea about it just because it's everywhere. I did a lot of studying of Christian ideology in my early life, simply so I'd know what my classmates believed; it's incumbent upon any minority to understand the majority that surrounds them. We may have a lot less questions than you do, but that doesn't mean we're entirely uninterested in you as a person.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:59 pm


Well, I've never heard of traditions of religions deemed "flavors", but I think that really suits it. Really, most Christians believe in the same doctrines, just phrased a little differently. If you look at the core of Christians (or Evangelicals), it's the same. I belong to the Salvation Army (wow, big surprise, bet you did not know it was a church). It is an off-shoot of the Methodist church. The reason for my church's "break off" was it was noted that to help the world, you needed not only turn them to G-d/G*d, but also help with basic human needs. That's the Salvation Army in a nut-shell.

MasterPerks


LordNeuf
Crew

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:13 pm


MasterPerks
I belong to the Salvation Army (wow, big surprise, bet you did not know it was a church). It is an off-shoot of the Methodist church.


No I did not know it was an actual church, I just thought it was a charity organization like Feed the Children or Operation Rescue.

I will say that it is one of the more noble causes of a religous movement. We have a similar principle in Judaism known as Tzedakah.

Tzedakah is a mitzvah (obligated, good deed) that has varing levels of 'goodness.' The lowest one being begrudging or invoulintary contribution like, paying into social security & medicare, by having the goverment deduct from your paycheck. The highest one is giving someone the ability to be self sufficient. The old proverb of "Give a man a fish and he has food for a day, teach a man to fish and he has food all year," is one way to explain the highest level.

There's no scorecard or anything to keep track of how many levels of Tzedakah you achieve, it's for your own personal self worth of doing a good deed.

And, according to Tzedakah traditions, it's better for a person to put a dollar in a charity box, than for a person to get on TV and announce that they're buying every child in Cambodia a laptop computer. Anonimity is best in regards to Tzedakah.
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