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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:12 pm


*Giggle* You said funk.

That was something I thought about too, though. Being modest and how "lame" it is. I love my concert/band t-shirts and I desperately love summer dresses. I'm trying to come up with a way to stay modest and keep cool over the summer, so I can keep myself motivated. The thing is, I've never been around Jewish women, much less youthful Jewish women, who can give me ideas.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:01 pm


Heh. Yep, I said funk.

There's no reason modesty has to be lame. A plain T-shirt with long sleeves or 3/4 length sleeves and a neckline that covers your collarbones can go under just about any other casual shirt. I layer a long-sleeved T-shirt under a low-necked tank top, and get along just fine. Not only is it as fashionable as going without, but it'll keep you from showing off how recently you've shaved your armpits, and it'll hide whether you've remembered your deodorant that morning. It even keeps your outer shirt (the 'cool' one) cleaner by keeping it away from your body, so you could wear it again that week, in a pinch. Having that extra layer can protect your skin from sunburn as well as soak up the extra sweating you'll start to do as the weather heats up.

Take it from me, though: if you're going to start layering, do it BEFORE the weather gets warmer. It's easier to keep layering than to start layering, once the weather is warm. If you start with a long-sleeved T-shirt under a long-sleeved sweater, then move to a long-sleeved T-shirt under a light blouse, then a short-sleeved blouse, you'll feel cooler.

Your outer shirt can be a cool concert tee, a funky blouse, or a work uniform shirt. Your inner shirt can be a plain T-shirt of any color, or a long-sleeved turtleneck, or a plain shirt with fancy collar or cuffs that you want to show off. Use your creativity. No one says frum can't be funky and fun!

Divash
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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:56 pm


I suppose you're right. I guess I just always thought of frum dress as long skirts and sweaters and neutrals. I dispise neutrals like tan.

Anyway, ill be going shopping soon, so I'll look for stuff. This kind of excites me!

One thing I have to admit, formal dress is really hard to find in a modest style, and I get to dress up for my 16th birthday!

The way they make dresses these days, it will be had to cover up...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:03 pm


kingpinsqeezels
I suppose you're right. I guess I just always thought of frum dress as long skirts and sweaters and neutrals. I dispise neutrals like tan.

Anyway, ill be going shopping soon, so I'll look for stuff. This kind of excites me!

One thing I have to admit, formal dress is really hard to find in a modest style, and I get to dress up for my 16th birthday!

The way they make dresses these days, it will be had to cover up...

*shudders* I went to Homecoming this year, and half of the girls wore dresses that they were all but falling out of. I kept my jacket on the whole time except to take pictures. sweatdrop

darkphoenix1247
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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:06 pm


darkphoenix1247
kingpinsqeezels
I suppose you're right. I guess I just always thought of frum dress as long skirts and sweaters and neutrals. I dispise neutrals like tan.

Anyway, ill be going shopping soon, so I'll look for stuff. This kind of excites me!

One thing I have to admit, formal dress is really hard to find in a modest style, and I get to dress up for my 16th birthday!

The way they make dresses these days, it will be had to cover up...

*shudders* I went to Homecoming this year, and half of the girls wore dresses that they were all but falling out of. I kept my jacket on the whole time except to take pictures. sweatdrop
It got too hot for my shawl, and it was dark so I was like,"Screw it" and threw it to the side.
Mine was only strapless, I wasn't falling out of it or anything, which is saying something for my body type!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:35 am


It isn't actually all that hard to find modest formalwear, if you know where to look. Check out http://zorifashion.com/ -- The styles may be a little 'mature' (old) for you, but they might give you some ideas. Also look into websites for David's Bridal, and do a Google search for "modest evening gown" or "modest formalwear." You'll be amazed at how many options you can find. Just be sure to leave enough time for shipping and then for alterations, because when it arrives, you'll want to have a tailor fit it to your specific body to look its best.

Divash
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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:00 pm


Exactly what all has to be covered? What counts as being completely covered (does tulle or other shear fabrics not count in places like your arms or collar bone?) Is there anything strange or something I wouldn't think of necessarily that is actually not looked highly upon? (piercings, things of this nature.)

I should have asked this in Chaya's forum, but what books would you recommend to me that could educate me a little further. They don't have to be about this really. I'd like to know more about just about everything.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:46 am


Here's a quick primer in modesty for women (men have their own standards of modesty):

http://modestworld.com/laws.html

It's from an Orthodox perspective, and may be a bit further than you want to go. As a bare minimum, I'd say don't go out in a shirt that shows your shoulders, cleavage, or your bare stomach/waist. A skirt should be at least knee length. Trousers, if you wear them, shouldn't be the kind that will come down and show your backside when you sit or bend -- Britney Spears is definitely not tzanuah (modest), so don't dress like that. wink At an Orthodox synagogue, go with 3/4 length sleeves or longer, and skirts or dresses rather than trousers. At a Conservative synagogue, trousers are fine. At a Reform synagogue, shorter sleeves are fine, but do cover the shoulders, at least.

Personally, I do cover a bit more. I keep my sleeves at 3/4 length or longer, my collars up to the collarbones, and my skirts at mid-calf or longer. I also try to keep the fit loose so that one can't see my exact body shape. This is part of my Orthodox community's standard, but it's what I've always done even before becoming Orthodox -- I was born modest, and always liked to be covered up. It also keeps me from sunburning, which is a real danger in my family, which has been visited by the skin cancer family on numerous occasions.

But your mileage may vary. Start small, first just by wearing a knee-length or longer skirt and a 3/4 lenth sleeve shirt at synagogue. When something that isn't modest wears out or becomes too small as you grow, replace it with something more modest. Something attractive, but not attracting, as the saying goes. Something in which you feel you look good, but won't have boys staring at your body.

The real aim of tzniut (modesty) is to gently call the eye to your face, and to make people focus on your thoughts, ideas, values, and personality instead of on your physical attributes. It's humiliating to have people looking at you and thinking, "I'd sleep with her," or "I'd never sleep with her." It's dignifying to have them think, "I wonder what she's like. I wonder what she thinks about ." Your physical self is only a small part of who you are. Your clothing should protect your dignity and privacy, as well as displaying you as a person of substance and class. Good luck! smile You deserve to be admired, not gawked at by vulgar-thinking vultures.

Divash
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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:30 pm


Divash
Good luck! smile You deserve to be admired, not gawked at by vulgar-thinking vultures.
*Sigh* I've had to put up with that since puberty. I enjoy my figure, and I'm proud of it, but that doesn't mean I want to show it all off first. I think that's part of the reason modest is so enticing. But when you've been raised and you grew up around short shorts and skirts and plunging necklines, it becomes something everyone does. I don't dress like that, I wear short sleeves and a jacket with jeans constantly, but business casual/semi formal is harder for me. I dunno, this should be easier once I go shopping, but you know what's in style these days!

Do you have to cover your toes/feet?

I actually plan on converting to Orthodox, but I'm still a far way from that! I'm just so glad I have this guild to answer my questions and what not, I appreciate it.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:03 am


i was very unsure about covering my hair. Mainly because, depending on how you cover your hair, you will be 'placed' into a movement. If i wear a Tichal (head scarf) im "dati Lumi" (the Zionistic religous group). if i wear a hat with my hair showing im 'mock charadi' (fake religous). if i wear a snuid (um i dont know this one in english) or a shetial (wig) im Charadi Charadi (ortodox plus). so i have a few of each. Im not any of these! but since i live on a settlment and i dont like getting stared at, i wear scarves. when I'm with my Charadi parents, i wear a snuid. its complicated for me. but your right, it makes me feel more relaxed in general. one less thing to worry about during the day, and it makes me feel speical. like my hair is only for me and my husband. no one else. also it gives me a sense of pride. its saying "IM MARRIED!!!!" and i feel more accepted now that im married. but thats just me. redface

Alina Sedai

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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:40 pm


I hope your wedding went well. I've never been to a Jewish wedding, so that's why I'm making mine extra extravagant.

That's another reason I'd like to cover, my hair is so mean to me! I'm not married or anything, but I basically have the same principal. It's my hair, and you have to be committed to me to see it. If only I could get around to it. redface
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:46 am


kingpinsqeezels
Divash
Good luck! smile You deserve to be admired, not gawked at by vulgar-thinking vultures.
*Sigh* I've had to put up with that since puberty. I enjoy my figure, and I'm proud of it, but that doesn't mean I want to show it all off first. I think that's part of the reason modest is so enticing. But when you've been raised and you grew up around short shorts and skirts and plunging necklines, it becomes something everyone does. I don't dress like that, I wear short sleeves and a jacket with jeans constantly, but business casual/semi formal is harder for me. I dunno, this should be easier once I go shopping, but you know what's in style these days!

Do you have to cover your toes/feet?

I actually plan on converting to Orthodox, but I'm still a far way from that! I'm just so glad I have this guild to answer my questions and what not, I appreciate it.


You're not obligated to cover your toes and feet, but you do have to cover your legs, usually with either knee-high socks, trouser socks (light tights, but they only go up to your knees), or full hosiery (stockings). It's hard to wear those, and have bare feet. However, I have a pair of thong sandals I like to wear, so I wear them with a shalwar khameez. That's a loose, flowy trouser beneath a thigh-length-or-longer blouse/shirt-dress. It's a very common style in the Middle East, Southeast Asia (India, Pakistan, and so on), and some parts of Africa. If that style looks good on you, try it. The longer the blouse/dress, the more likely it is to be acceptable within the Orthodox community, though I warn you, they'll think of you as very bohemian and possibly a little bit "out there." If you don't mind standing out and being possibly stared at, go for it. I really only wear that when I'm going to be interacting primarily with non-Jews, such as while out shopping or on a vacation. I expect to get a lot of good use out of my shalwar khameezes on my cruise this coming August.

I'm not actually sure about sheer fabrics. I suspect that the stricter the community, the less they'd approve of it, but I haven't tried it myself.

One thing I recommend for someone who wants to take on a more modest approach to their attire is to start while the weather is cold. First of all, in the winter, everyone else is covered up too, so it won't raise any eyebrows at all. Second of all, buy your spring and summer clothes in very lightweight fabrics, but with the longer sleeves, and put a colorful contrasting tank top (with a higher neckline) under a blouse with a plunging neckline. That way you'll fulfill the requirements of modesty, but it won't look unusual to your friends who are used to seeing people wearing miniskirts and halter tops. And don't call attention to it in any way, just go about your business. If someone asks if you're hot, say "Sure, it's ninety degrees out. Everyone's hot." Like it's no big deal. If they persist and point out that you're wearing long sleeves, just smile and say, "Sure, but the fabric is really thin and lightweight. I'm fine. The trick is to stay hydrated." If you don't call attention to it, no one will really notice a difference, because they're all teenagers too, and for the most part, they'll likely be too absorbed in their own drama to really notice what you're wearing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:53 am


Alina Sedai
i was very unsure about covering my hair. Mainly because, depending on how you cover your hair, you will be 'placed' into a movement. If i wear a Tichal (head scarf) im "dati Lumi" (the Zionistic religous group). if i wear a hat with my hair showing im 'mock charadi' (fake religous). if i wear a snuid (um i dont know this one in english) or a shetial (wig) im Charadi Charadi (ortodox plus). so i have a few of each. Im not any of these! but since i live on a settlment and i dont like getting stared at, i wear scarves. when I'm with my Charadi parents, i wear a snuid. its complicated for me. but your right, it makes me feel more relaxed in general. one less thing to worry about during the day, and it makes me feel speical. like my hair is only for me and my husband. no one else. also it gives me a sense of pride. its saying "IM MARRIED!!!!" and i feel more accepted now that im married. but thats just me. redface


I feel exactly the same way! I love my snoods, scarves, caps, and hats. I like knowing that non-Jews see me as unusual because I've always got a cute hat to complete my outfit, and Jews see me as off limits for a shidduch (a marriage match) because I'm already taken.

But you're right, there's a problem of how others perceive those of us who cover. It's just as divisive in the US as in Israel, wearing one head covering or another. People look at other people and say, "Oh, she's not one of us, her hair is covered wrong. She must be one of those Jews, those liberals/fanatics," or whatever they say that means "different and therefore suspect." I honestly don't bother to make a political statement with my coverings. I don't wake up and say, "Now, which covering can I wear, that will offend the most people today?" I pick the hat, snood, scarf, cap, or hairpiece that goes best with my current outfit. Period. If someone wants to misinterpret what I wear, or they don't like the way I look, they can look at their shoes or stick their noses in a book -- it's not my problem.

But at the same time, I don't like when people get upset with me because my covering sets me apart from them in ideology. Frankly, the easiest, most convenient, and most attractive coverings I've ever seen are the ones that Muslim women wear. They also don't slip off as easily, because they're anchored under the chin. But when I do wear one -- mostly at the gym, because I work out vigorously, and most of my 'more Jewish' coverings slip off and expose my hair -- people get all horked off at me for trying to masquerade as a Muslim woman instead of be proud of my Jewishness. I AM proud to be a Jew! I just want to cover in a way that won't come off the first time I go upside down or bend over really fast.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:29 pm


Heh, last summer here in NYC, I was on the subway, and in a non-air-conditioned car.. There was an older religious lady sitting down, and I was standing because the car was crowded, as were other people. It was one of the days where we broke a hundred degreees, and it was HOT. This lady was wearing a sheitel, a white buttoned-up-collar blouse with a light black shrug (kind of a half-jacket) over it, a long black pleated cotton skirt, opaque black stockings and black dress shoes.

I was wearing, in comparison, a 3/4 sleeved white cotton tunic and a very lightweight summer calf-length skirt, lightweight stockings and my regular city sneaker.

A girl gets on at the next stop, dressed in a tank top, mini shorts, and flip-flops (the summer uniform of the city), and stands across from the older lady, and stares at her for a couple minutes. She finally asks her "Aren't you HOT?!" and the lady's response is "Of course, it's 100 degrees outside. I bet you're hot too. I'm just a little hotter."

I started laughing, and walked through the train cars to find some air-conditioning. A cop gave me a dirty look, since that's against the law. xd sweatdrop

Also, @ Divash: I also wear a very Muslim hair covering at the gym or when I know I'll be sweating a lot, to keep sweat out of my hair. I find it horribly disgusting to have sweaty hair and I require a shower ASAP. x_X I have a large, plain black headscarf that I wrap and tie in such a way that looks more Muslim than Jewish, according to most people, and apparently that's offensive? I don't even wear it for a religious purpose at all. It's just a coincidence, for heaven's sake. xp

SKJC


kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:40 am


Divash
You're not obligated to cover your toes and feet, but you do have to cover your legs, usually with either knee-high socks, trouser socks (light tights, but they only go up to your knees), or full hosiery (stockings). It's hard to wear those, and have bare feet.

What's popular down here are leggings, they're like tights cut off around the ankle. Is that still considered covering your legs, because then I could also wear sandals.

Anyway, I probably wouldn't get stared at a lot, because most of the Jewish people in my community aren't very religious, or they're not very strict. I will keep in mind all of this information though for once I move somewhere else. I don't like being stared at, but it's better than being stared at for the reasons I'm normally stared at.
We were leaving Target, and my mother said to me,"I don't know how daddy can take you shopping. These boys can't keep their eyes to themselves."
I was wearing shorts sleeves, a jacket, and blue jeans. I don't understand boys sometimes. rolleyes

Anyway, if you don't mind me asking, do you live in New York now?
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