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 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:53 pm
lady_marine_17 Calm down, you have a lot of good points, but you gotta realise we only call him a fop for fun, not because he really is one. But really good detailed post, it just gives the impression you are mega-pissed-off. If only. Actually, a good deal of phans here and in other places (or even fans) proclaim religiously that Raoul is a fop. I don't know who put such an 1700 term to him (or who the idiot reading the dictionary at the time was) but it really isn't befitting to his character in any aspect or version. And I really didn't get the impression that Fuoko was "pissed". Had he been pissed, capslock would have come into affect and several dozen exclamation points would've been attached to the end of every sentence. Frankly he explained it better than I think I could of.
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:27 pm
I've never considered Raoul a 'fop'(although I have called him that several times sweatdrop ). He's cute, I'll admit. I wouldn't say no if he asked me out(unless I was already with Erik *hisses at Christine* two timer!). But, I wouldn't go out of my way to attract him. I'd much rather have the sociopath who would kill for my love. I could die in the center of such passion.<---I always wanted to love like that. *sigh*. Anyways, Raoul loves Christine, yet it's a happy fairy-tale love, which seems more suitable for Cinderella. The rich loves the poor. How touching. Yet, Erik has a dark love that has never been classified in a Disney cartoon. He has burning passion and desire. Whereas all Raoul has to offer is little childrens version of love. Maybe we just love Erik more, because we want a member of the opposite sex to express the same undying love. Maybe we just want to feel grown up. Maybe we are all secretly wishing to be dark, and falling in love with Erik is the first step out of the closet. Whatever the reason, people seem to like Erik more.
I dunno. He's so easy to hate. He cries. He has long swishy hair. And he's NOT Erik. *shrug*
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:25 pm
I am a traditionalist, and thus an Erik supporter. However I do not hate Raoul. He annoys the hell out of me, and is the type of person (in the here and now) I would constantly swipe stuff from, just to annoy him back, but I don't hate him. I do, however, hate certain aspects of his personality, such as his whinyness and his childish jealousy. Sure he has good aspects to his personality, being caring and brave (sometimes foolishly so) but his faults annoy me more than I'm impressed with his good points. I am always attracted to somebody who's a bit messed up, either mentally or physically, and Erik is both of those. And in defense of his being a sociopath, all his life was spent being shunned from human society. Killing for the sultana was how he integrated himself. After a while, he stopped caring altogether about other people, because nobody else gave a damn about him. He had already in a way excluded himself from the human race, though he still wanted more than anything to be part of it. I think (and this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me at least) that if a person had shown him that they cared about him, he wouln't be going on murderous rampages. He's probably still kill in self-defense, but he wouldn't have any reason to do it otherwise. So I think that he would be nice enough if anyone actually treated him decently.
So there's my pro-Erik argument, if you'll forgive my rambling.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:13 am
Artemis12 I'd much rather have the sociopath who would kill for my love. I could die in the center of such passion.<---I always wanted to love like that. *sigh* Woman, you're nuts. On my side, I think I'd rather date Raoul, he's so sweet and wouldn't stalk me in off ways. Plus, Raoul has a horse, wish it was a different color, but he has a horse that wasn't stolen from the Opera House.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:55 pm
Cloth Roses Artemis12 I'd much rather have the sociopath who would kill for my love. I could die in the center of such passion.<---I always wanted to love like that. *sigh* Woman, you're nuts. On my side, I think I'd rather date Raoul, he's so sweet and wouldn't stalk me in off ways. Plus, Raoul has a horse, wish it was a different color, but he has a horse that wasn't stolen from the Opera House. Yeah, I know. But still, somebody who wanted to be with you so much, he would kill for it?? That has to be worth something... Anyways, here's my Raoul arguement. No, he's NOT a fop. We shouldn't call him one. But, we do. Why? Because we love Erik. Anyways, somebody commented that they downplayed his charecter a few pages back. Yes, Raoul is a MAJOR charecter, but they had to downplay him a bit, or everybody would be all: "Why again, do I care about that dude that lives in the cellars? Why wasn't it called:'The Patron of the Opera' ? " That's why they downplayed Raoul. Yes, he is a very sweet, attractive man. And yes, they were childhood sweethearts. Did you ever have a childhood sweetheart? I did. It would be extremely difficult for me to choose between the Erik and Nathen(my CHSH), especially if I ever DID see him again. Raoul is brave. I know that I, for one, would have a hard time going down to a murderers territory with NO backup, NO cops, and NO lifelines. And it's not like it's his fault he fell in love with the two-timer. ALTHOUGH.... He IS kind of a hypocrite. In the same scene(talking about the CD here folks), he says "You don't have to, they can't make you." then, like 5 minutes later, he's all: "Every hope, and every prayer rest on you now!" But no pressure, right? lol, sorry, this is my pro-Raoul rant, I forgot.... Erm.... Raoul has a pretty white horse, and he DID have a very hard life(Since the details have already been posted several times, I see no need to do it again). He is by no means a 'fop', a 'pansey', or a 'girlie-man'. I rest my case. *still loves Erik*
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:34 pm
Fuoko, I think I heart you.
What I don't get is why every 'Raoul is not a Fop' debate turns into an Erik vs. Raoul debate. Liking Raoul does not automatically mean that you have to dislike Erik and everyone is more than welcome to like him more than Raoul... Just stop hating Raoul for stupid reasons and stop making him out to be something he's not.
All things considered, it's most insulting to Erik to turn Raoul into a brainless fop... Because however foppish and wussy and stupid you claim he is, Raoul still gets the girl in the end. You're just giving the impression that your beloved Phantom lost to a complete nincompoop. How embarassing for him.
Bottom line... If you know Raoul isn't a fop and just do it because everyone else does, why don't you try stopping?
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:59 pm
I fully agree you Fuokohopin except I like the way Webber casted Raoul. Every time I listen to the musical I think "Okay, I'd definetly go with the Phantom" but then whenver I hear "All I Ask of You" I change my mind and my heart begs for Raoul. He's such a gentleman and a kind, considerate man.....I would love to have a Raoul of my own, even over Erik (Don't kill me! sweatdrop ) only because he's well...Raoul. Erik is dark and well has a sexy personality but he's kind of crazy and if I were Christine the fear would outweigh the desire. I didn't even know Raoul was is disliked until I joined and saw all the posts! I don't know where the whole "Fop" issue began, but still...Raoul may be French but that doesn't make him a pansy! Just because he acts with emotion doesn't make him a pansy.
Thank you for posting this and showing me that not everyone hates Raoul.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:43 am
Thank you so much for this! Raoul may be effeminate and overly emotional and kind of a pansy at times, but he isn't stuck up or vain, he has a good heart, he just doesn't necessarily know how to go about it. And why? He's a teenager.
I think this is one thing we have a tendency to gloss over. Leroux would occassionally call Raoul and Christine "The Children". They aren't full grown adults, they don't necessarily have fully developed brains...(nor do I and I know that) that goes for Christine too and why I can understand her clinging to Erik even after she's kind of figured out he is dangerous.
But yes... back to Raoul. He's also not a mean spirited person, if he was so vain why would he have any interest in a poor girl like Christine? Why would he have run into the ocean and gotten his clothes soaked to get her scarf? Remember, Daroga got involved because Raoul wanted to rescue Christine. Without Raoul...there'd be no plot...
Oh and to counteract some of the pansiness remember all- he -was- going to go on an Arctic expedition.. he is a sailor.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:53 am
BakaTulip Thank you so much for this! Raoul may be effeminate and overly emotional and kind of a pansy at times, but he isn't stuck up or vain, he has a good heart, he just doesn't necessarily know how to go about it. And why? He's a teenager. Don't get me wrong, but wasn't he about 25 years old in the book? He's more like a "young adult" not a teenager, not that it changes anything about him of course.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:52 pm
Shura-Pendragon BakaTulip Thank you so much for this! Raoul may be effeminate and overly emotional and kind of a pansy at times, but he isn't stuck up or vain, he has a good heart, he just doesn't necessarily know how to go about it. And why? He's a teenager. Don't get me wrong, but wasn't he about 25 years old in the book? He's more like a "young adult" not a teenager, not that it changes anything about him of course. No, as I said, even Gaston Leroux referred to him as a child.
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:04 pm
BakaTulip Shura-Pendragon BakaTulip Thank you so much for this! Raoul may be effeminate and overly emotional and kind of a pansy at times, but he isn't stuck up or vain, he has a good heart, he just doesn't necessarily know how to go about it. And why? He's a teenager. Don't get me wrong, but wasn't he about 25 years old in the book? He's more like a "young adult" not a teenager, not that it changes anything about him of course. No, as I said, even Gaston Leroux referred to him as a child. I'm sorry, we were both right. In my French version on page 29 it says: "il avait un peu plus de vingt et un ans et en paraissait dix-hiut." It means "He was a little over 21 years old and he seemed like 18." But he's still an adult either way.
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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:03 pm
Utakan Erin Sovenya I dislike Leroux!Raoul for his unceasiung crying, yes, but I don't hate him. I call him a fop simply because I feel like it, anf in fun. No, he isn't a fop (anymore than Erik is) but I feel he has at least earned "pansy", so I don't feel to bad about "fop". And no Erin, he hasn't earned the title of pansy either. If he was a pansy he would've run away every time something dangerous happened. But did he? No. He, like the typical hero of a book, went and put himself in danger and even nearly died just to save the woman he loved. A pansy would have run away saying she wasn't worth it. It's fine if you don't like Raoul as a character, but don't pick on him for crying. I've explained it time and time again, but nobody cares enough to read previous posts to see if a point has been made. Did I pick on him for crying? I could have sworn I said in spite of his crying I think he's a pansy (well, paraphrased) Mostly because he just comes across as that to me (in the book. Not the movie, in that he's all heroic hero-man) for some reason. Oh, and heres the definition of: pansy n 1: large-flowered garden plant derived chiefly from the wild pansy of Europe and having velvety petals of various colors [syn: Viola tricolor hortensis] (obviously doesn't apply) 2: a timid man or boy considered childish or unassertive 3: offensive terms for an openly homosexual man 4: Offensive Slang. 1. Used as a disparaging term for a man or boy who is considered effeminate. Bingo. You guys already admitted he is slightly effeminate, so I'll ignore that one. Raoul is very childlike (its actually kinda cute, to a point) and he is rather unassertive. Correct me if Im wrong, but weren't men suposed to make the decisions and women follow them? Well then, Id certainly call it unassertive when he allows Christine to talk him out of taking her away for her own safety. And yes, he may be in love, but that doesn't excuse his stupidity, just makes it cute. Except that in this case it leads to Christine being kidnapped and he and the Daroga almost dying and all three of them being completely at Erik's mercy. So, is Raoul in love? yes. Does that excuse his stupidity? no. ((Of course, some of these things apply to Erik as well. He too lets Christine talk him around sometimes. (Also stupid) But its never over something he wants to do that will help her and she talks him out of it. (Like...she's never, "Oh Erik, don't convince them to let me sing the lead! I like being an understudy/chorus girl/whatever.") ANd its usually a bargain between Christine and Erik "If you let them live, I won't kill myself" or "Let me leave and I'll come visit you!" With Raoul its all "No, I must stay so your devious rival for my affections won't feel sad!" "Okay.")) ...wow, that was longer than I meant to post sweatdrop But anyway, Raoul isn't a fop, though me might be considered a pansy. Oh, and I'd just like to point out that someone (don't recall who) was all, "98% of people in this guild drool over Erik" Yet I'd say its 98% of people who have agreed with fuoko that Raoul isn't a fop. (I love the smell of irony in the...evening(?))
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:42 am
Wow, this has gone on a lot longer than I ever expected. Erin Sovenya Oh, and heres the definition of: pansy n 1: large-flowered garden plant derived chiefly from the wild pansy of Europe and having velvety petals of various colors [syn: Viola tricolor hortensis] (obviously doesn't apply) 2: a timid man or boy considered childish or unassertive 3: offensive terms for an openly homosexual man 4: Offensive Slang. 1. Used as a disparaging term for a man or boy who is considered effeminate.Yes, in conjunction with definition two, I think I'd be leaning to agree with you. However, I've bolded the definition that most people are using when describing Raoul with this word and that's what annoys me. They aren't necessarily thinking of his motives or his intentions -- all they see is what Erik sees: a handsome young man with "the complexion of a girl." In my experience, they're not using it to speak kindly about his personality. It was just a thought.
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:31 pm
fuokohopin Wow, this has gone on a lot longer than I ever expected. Erin Sovenya Oh, and heres the definition of: pansy n 1: large-flowered garden plant derived chiefly from the wild pansy of Europe and having velvety petals of various colors [syn: Viola tricolor hortensis] (obviously doesn't apply) 2: a timid man or boy considered childish or unassertive 3: offensive terms for an openly homosexual man 4: Offensive Slang. 1. Used as a disparaging term for a man or boy who is considered effeminate.Yes, in conjunction with definition two, I think I'd be leaning to agree with you. However, I've bolded the definition that most people are using when describing Raoul with this word and that's what annoys me. They aren't necessarily thinking of his motives or his intentions -- all they see is what Erik sees: a handsome young man with "the complexion of a girl." In my experience, they're not using it to speak kindly about his personality. It was just a thought. Well of course they're not using to speak kindly of him, its defined as a disparaging term xd
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Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:10 pm
*throws hersolf at fuokohopin's feet* I've been avoiding this whole fandom for years over the whole Raoul bashing issue (unfortunately is isn't just the influx of movie fangirls who are responsible) - I rather tentitively joined here thinking I would be disgusted after one day and never come back just like I usualy am. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THIS! You (and several other posters in this thread) have stated everything so much more eloquently than I could - well done and I am in utter agreement.
Erik is an awesome, fascinating, multidimensional character - even I as an ardent and very frustrated Raoul supporter can readily admit that - and the man is a psychopathic killer and stalker. (I grant you that is is perhaps not without good reason) Why is it that, in a broad generalization mind you, Erik fans cannot grant Raoul the same curtosy. I don't really care if you think the man is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard - I realize the gentleman type just dosen't float everyone's boat - but he certainly dosen't deserve the vicious hatred that the majority of the fandom directs at him for little more than being a bit weepy (oh yeah and the whole - Erik realized he could never give Christine the life she deserved and realized that Raoul also loved her and could and so let her go- thing, how dare he disspoint his fans so and do the right thing for the woman he loved). cry
For the people who are saying "Whats the big deal, its just a bit of fun?": The big deal is the frequency of the 'bit of fun' and the inevitably crueler bits of fun that follow. In other forums I have seen entire threads dedicated to morbid and inhuman ways to slowly torture Raoul to death - I don't care if he is just a fictional character - thats not cool under any circumstance. As I said to start - I've avoided this fandom for years because I felt profoundly unwelcome because of my preference for Raoul. I know several other Raoul fans who have said similar things. Isn't it funny that the most vocal fans of the unloved and unwelcomed outcast in turn make fellow fans feel outcast for their taste. Raoul fans arent asking you to abandon Erik and love Raoul whole-heartedly, I'm not even asking you to like him, we're just (and I think I speak for any Raoul fan here) asking you to refrain from bashing the boy so mercilessly.
cry
Much love to all Raoul supporters everywhere! heart
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