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That book is the basis for the whole anti-catholic movement, you do know that don't you (just telling you, it has nothing to do with anything, just information)?
Anyhow, Purgatory is not necessarily punishment, it is a cleansing by fire from God.

You need to explain what your displayed verses mean, I don't really see how they prove purgatory wrong, all they prove is that true believers go to Heaven, that is not the argument however, the argument is over the existance of Purgarory. As for the Thief, he was with Jesus that day, but to get there, he got his soul cleansed, is it that hard to believe? It's not like you have to be in Purgatory for an amount of time, he could of just went through Purgatory like *snaps* that. Then he'd be in Heaven. Try and give me verses that prove Purgatory wrong, not verses that prove believers go to heaven. Thank you.

Why should it matter whether or not I'm Christian? Secondly, I bet if I hadn't even told you I wasn't you never would have known (till you read some other threads I posted in).

And I'm going to use logic based on certain assumptions to see which side is right, according to the assumptions my logic will be based on.

Really, is it that hard to be logical about the conclusions you draw?

Nowhere did I ever say that Christians do not sin. I said, somewhere in the bible, there is a verse. This verse says something to the effect of "Through Christ I can do all things." This implies no need for purgatory, as it would imply that my belief in Christ would allow God to see me as perfect.

hey, Marysservant u wanna be friends?

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the [world] to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

St. Augustine argued: "Some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next, would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv).

According to St. Isidore of Seville the Church taught that in the next life: "Some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6)

The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n.11) and other eminent theological writers.

Origen, the first great Church father, taught that if people depart this life with lighter faults, they are condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, preparing their souls for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. He wrote:

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones; but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col. 445, 44 cool .

They based their statements on the following Bible verse:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

As for the theif on the cross and "Paradise":

To a thief who asked the dying Lord to remember him, Christ said, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43). But two days after this, when Christ was Resurrected and had taken up a glorious, tangible body, he appeared to Mary and told her, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). If Christ had been in Paradise but had not yet ascended to Heaven where the Father dwells, then what is Paradise? It is obviously some other place besides Heaven and appears to be a place where the spirits of the dead await the time of Resurrection.

The place known as "Abraham's Bosum" in Luke 16:19-31 is also known as "Paradise" aka "Pardec" elsewhere in the New Testament. "Paradise/Pardec" was known to the Ancient Jews and the Earliest Christians to be the section of Sheol (Hades) that was thought to be the abode of the pious while awaiting the Resurrection. (This bit of knowledge is given in a Greek Bible Lexicon.) Paradise (Pardec) and The Kingdom of God where The Father dwells are two seperate places.

The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). Until the resurrection, though, there is currently a temporary Heaven "Paradise" (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and Hell "Hades" (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14).

Christ's Promise to the Malefactor:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

The same day Christ and the malefactor died, they were together as disembodied spirits in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom).

Paradise/Pardec:

Luke 16:22-26:

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence."

Also of interesting note...

Christ Preached/Proclaimed the Gospel to the Dead:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of brass shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18] (Note: Original Greek says "Gates of Brass" I.E. the Opening to Sheol [Hades])

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. [John 5:25]

He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So, he went and preached to the spirits in prison -- those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. [1 Peter 3:19]

That is why the Good News was preached even to those who have died --so that although their bodies were punished with death, they would still live in the spirit as God does. [1 Peter 4:6]

But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says: "He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men." What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. [Ephesians 4:7-10]

Note: In Judaism, Sheol was thought to exist "in the lower regions of the earth" as Saint Paul mentioned.

The Early Christian Apocrypha/Pseudographia Scriptures titled The Gospel of Nicodemus & The Gospel of Bartholomew both mention Jesus Christ's descent into Sheol and Preaching unto the dead in great detail.

Early Christian Artwork also depicts Jesus Christ's descent into Sheol and Preaching unto the dead.

Early Church Fathers on Jesus Christ Preaching unto the Dead:

It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2)

And it has been shown also, in the second book of the Stromata, that the Apostles, following the Lord, preached the Gospel to those in Hades...For it was suitable to the divine administration, that those possessed of greater worth in righteousness, and whose life had been pre-eminent, on repenting of their transgressions, though found in another place, yet being confessedly of the number of the people of God Almighty, should be saved, each one according to his individual knowledge...If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was but to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there... (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:6)

When He became a soul, without the covering of the body, He dwelt among those souls which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself, or those whom He saw, for reasons known to Him alone, to be better adapted to such a course. (Origen, Against Celsus, 2:43)

These Apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water and again ascended. (The Pastor of Hermas, Sim. 9:16)

"We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled." [Justin quotes some passages which the Jews evidently removed from Esdras and Jeremiah.] And again, from the sayings of some of Jeremiah these have been cut out: "The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 71-72)

Also of interesting note...

Three Degrees of Glory & Many Dwelling Places:

In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. [John 14:2] (Many Dwelling Places)

The Apostle Paul equated three degrees of glory in the resurrection with the sun, moon, and stars...

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] (Three Degrees of Glory in the Resurrection)

Just as Paul stated that the resurrection of the dead were as the glory of the sun, moon and stars (1 Cor. 15:40-42), so The Tripartite Tractate (An Early Christian Writing) teaches a comparison of men's spirits:

"They were fathers of the third glory....They are the first and the second and thus both of them are perfect and full, for they are manifestations of the Father who is perfect and full, as well as of those who came forth, who are perfect by the fact that they glorify the perfect one. The fruit of the third, however, consists of honors of the will of each one of the aeons....For this reason, they are minds of minds, which are found to be words of words, elders of elders, degrees of degrees, which are exalted above one another. Each one of those who give glory has his place and his exaltation and his dwelling and his rest, which consists of the glory which he brings forth." (pg. 69).

This is very similar to the orthodox Christian teachings of the Shepherd Hermas, who taught that all men are given a bough from the Tree of Life, and later when they are judged, it is by the look of the bough. For those boughs which bore more branches and fruit, the person was given a crown and allowed to dwell in the tower. For those whose branches showed some growth, they were allowed to live in the tower, yet without a crown. Others who showed promise were allowed into the courtyard, while the disobedient were not allowed to enter, but were cast out. (III Hermas, Similitude VIII, The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden, World Bible Publishers Inc, 1927, ISBN 0-529-03385-2).

II Maccabees & Prayers For The Dead

The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (II Mach., xii, 43-46). At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.

In Defense of II Maccabees and the other Deutrocanonicals:

Accepting II Maccabees depends on whether or not you are using the same compilation of Old Testament Scriptures that the Apostles used or not, which includes II Maccabees. If you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Ethiopian Christian you are, if you are Protestant, you are not.

"[T]he Early Christians used a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. This translation . . . contained an expanded canon which included a number of the so-called "deuterocanonical" (or "apocryphal") books. Although there was some initial debate over these books, they were eventually received by Christians into the Old Testament canon.

In reaction to the rise of Christianity, the Jews narrowed their canons and eventually excluded the deuterocanonical books - although they still regarded them as sacred. The modern Jewish canon was not rigidly fixed until the third century A.D. Interestingly, it is this later version of the Jewish canon of the Old Testament, rather than the canon of Early Christianity, that is followed by most modern Protestants today." ("Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament," The Christian Activist, Vol. 9, Fall/Winter 1996, p. 1,4-7.)

When the Apostles lived and wrote, there was no New Testament and no finalized Old Testament.

The Deuterocanonical Books in the Early Church

"In the first century the Christian Bible had simply been the Old Testament (read in the Septuagint version). Authority resided in this scripture and in the words of the Lord, which long circulated in oral tradition, as is apparent in the letter of Clement to the Corinthians." ("The Early Church" Henry Chadwick p 42)

The LXX version was also used by the authors of the New Testament.

Interestingly, when Luther and other Protestants rejected the Septuagint text and its Latin translation in the Vulgate, thus rejecting the Apocrypha, and instead used a smaller collection of Old Testament books from the Masoretic Hebrew text, they diverged from centuries of Christian tradition. As a result, the Roman Catholic Bible now has about twelve books more than the Protestant Bible, meaning that about 200 pages of text have been "subtracted" - one could say - from the Protestant Bible relative to the "traditional" Catholic Bible.

And here are some of the quotations from the Deuterocanon in the New Testament:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Orthodox and Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament!

The above information was posted from various online sources compiled together.

I must say, ***OWNED***

<--- Isn't even Roman Catholic, but rather a Valentinian Gnostic Christian and a Student of Jewish Kabbalah and Jewish/Christian Mysticism.

It doesn't matter. Chaoticpuppet uses logic. And in this arguemnet, logic actually has a place.

" For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops. and I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear; Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

-Luke 12:2-5

Here, I was simply telling you what the right Scripture was.

Heh, I think Chaoticpuppet knows more about Bible versus than I do even if he is non-christian. sweatdrop

Hey, Chaoticpuppet, if you want some logical answers and proof of Christianity, I know a really good book for it. It's called It Couldn't Just Happen by Lawrence O. Richards. I have another friend who knows all kinds of good books like that. If you ever want any other book titles, just PM me and I'll look one up. Like I once read, there is no aethiestic/agnostic/or other sort of question that is so radical and new it hasn't been asked before and adequitly answered.

As for the topic, I honestly don't see why it's so important if purgatory exists or not. Nor do I understand why it matters so much if Catholics are right or wrong about anything as long as we're all Christians. Why bother proving another denomination wrong or convert others to your line of faith or believing? Does it really matter this much? From what I've read of this topic, you're all running around in circles about the purgatory issue. The best arguement for it thus far is Eteponge, and he's not even Catholic.

If you want to prove to me that Catholic is the best domination, then you'll have to chose something more important to argue about than if we go through purgatory or not. (Then again, I just value people as Christians instead of their denominations or being right or wrong when it comes to scripture. I could settle into almost any type of church and be happy. sweatdrop I'm mostly in this topic to learn more about Catholics since I've heard they're very different from the other churches.)