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 Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:51 am
kingpinsqeezels I agree with that. If someone's dad is Jewish and their mother is not, I would still think them Jewish if they practiced. 3nodding now there's a paradox.
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:00 am
ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels I agree with that. If someone's dad is Jewish and their mother is not, I would still think them Jewish if they practiced. 3nodding now there's a paradox. Yeah. I don't really see how. Explain.
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:08 pm
kingpinsqeezels ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels I agree with that. If someone's dad is Jewish and their mother is not, I would still think them Jewish if they practiced. 3nodding now there's a paradox. Yeah. I don't really see how. Explain. practicing is following all the rules, right? but if one of the rules say you can't practice, then...
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:25 pm
ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels I agree with that. If someone's dad is Jewish and their mother is not, I would still think them Jewish if they practiced. 3nodding now there's a paradox. Yeah. I don't really see how. Explain. practicing is following all the rules, right? but if one of the rules say you can't practice, then... Well you do have a point. That's just weird though. If you want to practice, than practice. I don't see how it matters if your father mother grandmother whoever was Jewish...I just don't see. It doesn't matter who you are, you can take pride and be just as religious as anyone else.
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:04 pm
kingpinsqeezels ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels I agree with that. If someone's dad is Jewish and their mother is not, I would still think them Jewish if they practiced. 3nodding now there's a paradox. Yeah. I don't really see how. Explain. practicing is following all the rules, right? but if one of the rules say you can't practice, then... Well you do have a point. That's just weird though. If you want to practice, than practice. I don't see how it matters if your father mother grandmother whoever was Jewish...I just don't see. meh. rules are rules. the simple solution, of course, is to come to grips with the fact, and just convert. no harm done, just making it official. or not. rules are rules. there's probably a good reason for it. truth be told intermarriage is supposed to be a bad thing in the first place. Quote: It doesn't matter who you are, you can take pride and be just as religious as anyone else. and thus we have channukah bushes... come to think about it, the word "pride" has changed a lot in recent years. yes, i know the movement started a few decades ago. that's what i meant
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:11 pm
ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels Yeah. I don't really see how. Explain. practicing is following all the rules, right? but if one of the rules say you can't practice, then... Well you do have a point. That's just weird though. If you want to practice, than practice. I don't see how it matters if your father mother grandmother whoever was Jewish...I just don't see. meh. rules are rules. the simple solution, of course, is to come to grips with the fact, and just convert. no harm done, just making it official. or not. rules are rules. there's probably a good reason for it. truth be told intermarriage is supposed to be a bad thing in the first place. Quote: It doesn't matter who you are, you can take pride and be just as religious as anyone else. and thus we have channukah bushes... come to think about it, the word "pride" has changed a lot in recent years. yes, i know the movement started a few decades ago. that's what i meantRules are rules, you're right. But like most rules, some become out dated. And yeah, I know intermarriage is a "bad" thing, but I'm a hopeless romantic, so don't try proving that as a fact to me. I think the rules are a little unusual, but I will follow through with them because I want to...I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying they aren't all that reasonable for this day and age.
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:57 am
kingpinsqeezels ...I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying they aren't all that reasonable for this day and age. what does that mean?
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:02 am
ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ...I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying they aren't all that reasonable for this day and age. what does that mean? It means that times have changed since the Torah was written, and some of the rules have changed from days long past. Though unbelievably far from an expert, I think there's something in there about animal sacrifice- yet nobody now goes randomly into the middle of a park or something and slaughters a cow. Please correct me if I'm horribly slaughtering your point King, (and I apologize if I am sweatdrop ) but I think the point is that not everything applies in the present as well as it did thousands of years ago. However, not all of this is to say we shouldn't practice Judaism merely because time has passed- some things will always apply, no matter what. The problem is in figuring out what is out-dated and what isn't, I guess. sweatdrop
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:04 am
darkphoenix1247 ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ...I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying they aren't all that reasonable for this day and age. what does that mean? It means that times have changed since the Torah was written, and some of the rules have changed from days long past. Though unbelievably far from an expert, I think there's something in there about animal sacrifice- yet nobody now goes randomly into the middle of a park or something and slaughters a cow. Please correct me if I'm horribly slaughtering your point King, (and I apologize if I am sweatdrop ) but I think the point is that not everything applies in the present as well as it did thousands of years ago. However, not all of this is to say we shouldn't practice Judaism merely because time has passed- some things will always apply, no matter what. The problem is in figuring out what is out-dated and what isn't, I guess. sweatdrop That's exactly what I'm saying. Thank you for coming to my rescue with your well spoken-ness. I have troubles getting my point across. whee
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:53 am
darkphoenix1247 The problem is in figuring out what is out-dated and what isn't, I guess. sweatdrop orly explain to me then, how those who trust so firmly in their evaluation, and so blithely embrace the bleeding thesis of self-censorship and willful acceptance, live life in no way better or easier than those who would rather trust in the knowledge and wisdom of those before, and seek reasoning within, not without. in other words, if all this is so "out-dated", then how do people who do not accept that view continue to lead successful lives? even more so, what gives one the right to decide? better to maintain the status quo, until some crisis, not discomfort, occurs.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:29 pm
To King: Thanks, but I'm far from eloquent with writing; I'm just glad I didn't totally mess up what you were trying to say. sweatdrop xp
Yoni: First off, I'm not trying to say that the Torah is outdated, nor am I trying to say that we shouldn't listen to it merely because it is so archaic, so please don't think I'm trying to ignore some of the basic principles of Judaism.
But, you are forgetting a few things:
1. Some people think the Torah is outdated, and some think it's not-quite simply put. It's not as though people who think either way live any differently then the other; in both cases people are suffering, and in both cases some people are not. Basically, it's not as if what a person believes changes the way they live.
2. As I stated above, the problem is deciding what applies to us in the exact same way as it did thousands of years ago. We need to keep rereading and reanalyzing the Torah to get the full effect of it; nowadays some things probably make more sense then they did in ancient times. For example, I remember being told there was something about stoning people in the Torah.
Obviously, nobody goes around randomly offing people with rocks, but that's not to say we can't learn something from that today. Maybe there's a deeper meaning in that, maybe there's some kind of moral message, and maybe all it's saying is not to go around clubbing people. So to cut short useless fluff and rambling, there's pretty much infinite ways to take the Torah, and getting back to the original point King was making, some of the points people adhere so strictly to can be taken and followed very differently.
Note: I'm far from an expert on Judaism, and furthermore, I don't claim to have any sort of right to say, "This is right. You must follow this," because frankly, I don't. Similarly, I wouldn't want to, so please note, I'm merely stating my opinion on this before people start getting huffy and flaming me. blaugh
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:16 pm
darkphoenix1247 Yoni: First off, I'm not trying to say that the Torah is outdated, nor am I trying to say that we shouldn't listen to it merely because it is so archaic, so please don't think I'm trying to ignore some of the basic principles of Judaism. of course not. i know you better than that. but i'm not sure we mean the same thing by "basic principles of judaism" Quote: But, you are forgetting a few things: orly Quote: 1. Some people think the Torah is outdated, and some think it's not-quite simply put. It's not as though people who think either way live any differently then the other; in both cases people are suffering, and in both cases some people are not. Basically, it's not as if what a person believes changes the way they live. that was my point. if it is "dated", as some claim, then how? Quote: 2. As I stated above, the problem is deciding what applies to us in the exact same way as it did thousands of years ago. We need to keep rereading and reanalyzing the Torah to get the full effect of it; nowadays some things probably make more sense then they did in ancient times. For example, I remember being told there was something about stoning people in the Torah. hm. you make it sound like a cold, lifeless code. it is perhaps the definition of a living document. besides, one of the "basic principles of Judaism" is the entropy of generations. if the entire Torah was given to Moshe on Har Sinai (another basic principle), then each subsequent generation loses some of that knowledge. even more so, this entropy is spiritual. but that isn't so very relevant. stoning is one of four execution methods employed by beis din (house of judgment, ie, jewish court). stoning is one of the more severe (the gemara has a discussion, actually, on which death is more severe), and is only given for the gravest of sins, such as adultery, idol worship, etc. also, one can only be sentenced to death by beis din with at least 2 valid witnesses, and proof of intent. Quote: Obviously, nobody goes around randomly offing people with rocks, but that's not to say we can't learn something from that today. Maybe there's a deeper meaning in that, maybe there's some kind of moral message, and maybe all it's saying is not to go around clubbing people. So to cut short useless fluff and rambling, there's pretty much infinite ways to take the Torah, and getting back to the original point King was making, some of the points people adhere so strictly to can be taken and followed very differently. very true. which is why we have the oral Torah, ie, the Talmud. my practical definition of "interpretation" is "an understanding brought forth in order to forward an agenda". no one re-interprets anything out of curiosity. there's always some motive. which is why we have the concept of l'shma (l'shaim shema'im, in the name of heaven. in other words, because G-d said so) Quote: Note: I'm far from an expert on Judaism, and furthermore, I don't claim to have any sort of right to say, "This is right. You must follow this," because frankly, I don't. Similarly, I wouldn't want to, so please note, I'm merely stating my opinion on this before people start getting huffy and flaming me. blaugh well, you have a good point. one can't simply tell people what to do. but that doesn't mean one can't believe one is right.
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:12 pm
YvetteEmilieDupont not saying you're converting anyone, and we thank you for that. ::huggle:: christians aren't jewish, they are nothing like jews. the only thing they have in common is the old testament as they call it tanahk as you call it. Jews are ... more classy.. and i like it.. ::huggles judaism and gives her a yummy cookie:: don't lump her in with christianity. sad she's prettier 4laugh she's got a kippah 4laugh I still don't get how you can be jewish and believe in jesus christ? Explain it to me. >.> ^.^ yay you keep shabbath ::gives you a cookie:: better than me. It doesn't make them christian to believe in jesus, just.. they live in the grey area... or pink maybe sky blue or soft green or perhaps a peachey zone. you know what i mean. it is written somewhere that a goyim that keeps the sabbath shall be killed.
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:14 pm
darkphoenix1247 ZonkotheSane kingpinsqeezels ...I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying they aren't all that reasonable for this day and age. what does that mean? It means that times have changed since the Torah was written, and some of the rules have changed from days long past. Though unbelievably far from an expert, I think there's something in there about animal sacrifice- yet nobody now goes randomly into the middle of a park or something and slaughters a cow. Please correct me if I'm horribly slaughtering your point King, (and I apologize if I am sweatdrop ) but I think the point is that not everything applies in the present as well as it did thousands of years ago. However, not all of this is to say we shouldn't practice Judaism merely because time has passed- some things will always apply, no matter what. The problem is in figuring out what is out-dated and what isn't, I guess. sweatdrop also, animal sacrifice was only for when the temple was around. since the temple is not there, no animal sacrifice.
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:56 pm
HIMLuVa YvetteEmilieDupont not saying you're converting anyone, and we thank you for that. ::huggle:: christians aren't jewish, they are nothing like jews. the only thing they have in common is the old testament as they call it tanahk as you call it. Jews are ... more classy.. and i like it.. ::huggles judaism and gives her a yummy cookie:: don't lump her in with christianity. sad she's prettier 4laugh she's got a kippah 4laugh I still don't get how you can be jewish and believe in jesus christ? Explain it to me. >.> ^.^ yay you keep shabbath ::gives you a cookie:: better than me. It doesn't make them christian to believe in jesus, just.. they live in the grey area... or pink maybe sky blue or soft green or perhaps a peachey zone. you know what i mean. it is written somewhere that a goyim that keeps the sabbath shall be killed. whatever that means rolleyes
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