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Mechanism

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:10 am


PreacherBoy
If it was necessary, then it would have happened.

We've had a disagreement in definition, that's what's happened. I meant 'necessary' as the opposite to 'unnecessary', which I meant as 'irrelevent, useless, superfluous'. So what I think I actually meant is that things which are deserved are not unnecessary, but the reason which makes it deserved makes it not irrelevent, useless, or superfluous.
This was probably not a very good use of the word 'necessary'.
I don't think that the argument actually said a lot in the first place, so I think it'd be good to leave it alone now.
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Anyone with any control over their actions, no matter how small, is morally responsible for the choices they make with that control.

1. They're responsible for the choices they make with that control; so the amount of control they have is directly related to the amount of responsibility, now isn't it?
2. They're responsible only if they are in control of their actions. Before you make any more claims presuming free will, would ye mind replying to the argument which I currently have accessible through my sig?
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It has been explained to you many times, yet you've rejected it. That is your choice, but it is an unfortunate one.

It has not been explained to me. In fact, it's been repeatedly stated without any supporting argument.
Please, explain how 'the law' can be 'widely available to all' and yet there are people who apparently do not have knowledge of 'the law'. Please, explain how infants are aware of 'the law' despite complete lack of any manifestation of this apparent knowledge before being taught it by their parents.
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But they are not unaware of God.

There is that statement again.
For all I can see, they are unaware of God.
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Exactly what "revelation" have I had?

First of all, the simple revelation of the creation around you. Everyone has this revelation available to them.

You mean I'm aware of the universe which I am perceiving? Okay.
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Second, you have also received the Bible and the explanation of it by Christians. However, you seem to have rejected all of these.

You're right. I have 'rejected' the Bible and the claims of Christianity.
This is not relevent to what we are discussing, though.
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"everything which has a beginning in time must have a cause." This is a simple fact. Now, since everything (except God) has a beginning iin time, we know that everything (except God) has a cause.

Why does God exist rather than not exist?
Why is God one way rather than another?
There is no answer to these things if God is uncaused, because anything which is a determining factor is a cause, anything which is uncaused has no determining factors; it's gotta be random.
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However, there must be a first cause which caused everything to exist in the first place. The only way for this to be is that there was an uncaused first cause. I believe that this cause is God... if you have any other ideas, I'd like to hear them.

In the past, I had expressed the idea of a circular path of time.
However, the problem with this is that there's no reason why the circle as a whole exists, so I don't know.

"every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause."
This would be a workable law, except for the fact that all effects, by definition, are caused. This says nothing of hypothetical events which are not effects.
The article doesn't explain all that much about how God can exist without cause besides saying that God's not a 'material effect'; well, is time itself a material effect? No, so I suppose time must've always existed without cause then!
But, if there's no cause, then... why?

The article's also misinformed on the subject of evolution.
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Eh... I fail to see how someone could be morally responsible for something they're absolutely unaware of.

Tell this to the American judicial system. Ignorance of the law will not free me of the penalty of my crimes.

The judicial system does not punish criminals just because they 'deserve' it; which would require that they be morally responsible; the judicial system punishes criminals for specific purposes which require that even unaware law-breakers should be punished.
The judicial system does not punish the 'morally responsible', it punishes threats to society.
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What you do is different from what you intend, and you're only responsible for what you intend.

Oh, really? What gives you that idea?

1. What occurs is always slightly different from what is intended because we're not omnipotent, so it's inevitable that something will go slightly different from the 'pure intention'.
2. You're only responsible for what you intend because what you intend is the only thing that you cause: Everything else is completely out of your control. You're not responsible for thing which are completely out of your control, because you're irrelevent as far as these occurances are concerned.
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If you never intend to do something 'bad', or something 'sinful', then you can't really be guilty, can you?

Why not?

As with the judicial system: You must be of an age and mental condition so that you are aware of what is acceptable and unnacceptable to your society before you are charged with crimes. Guilt, as a matter of definition, is "remorseful awareness of having done something wrong".
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:46 am


Contingent
1. They're responsible for the choices they make with that control; so the amount of control they have is directly related to the amount of responsibility, now isn't it?
2. They're responsible only if they are in control of their actions. Before you make any more claims presuming free will, would ye mind replying to the argument which I currently have accessible through my sig?


I could reply sometime as long as you do not mind that I do not read the whole thread to catch up. I could respond to your first post, but I may repeat something someone already said...

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It has not been explained to me. In fact, it's been repeatedly stated without any supporting argument.


It hasn't been explained in detail in this debate, but it definitely has in the past. I have personally presented pretty simple logical deductions that point toward the existence of God. There are more such things, and I am sure you have seen many of them.

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Please, explain how 'the law' can be 'widely available to all' and yet there are people who apparently do not have knowledge of 'the law'. Please, explain how infants are aware of 'the law' despite complete lack of any manifestation of this apparent knowledge before being taught it by their parents.


The law is available to anyone who tracks down a copy of the Scriptures. However, being available to all does not mean that all are aware of it. And I did not mean to imply that everyone is aware of the law, except for the small part of it that exists in the conscience.

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There is that statement again.
For all I can see, they are unaware of God.


Perhaps we cannot agree on this then...

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You mean I'm aware of the universe which I am perceiving? Okay.


That universe, in many ways, points us to its Creator. Our awareness of the creation brings awareness of the Creator.

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You're right. I have 'rejected' the Bible and the claims of Christianity.
This is not relevent to what we are discussing, though.


Except that fact that it is part of the revelation that you have been offered.

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Why does God exist rather than not exist?
Why is God one way rather than another?
There is no answer to these things if God is uncaused, because anything which is a determining factor is a cause, anything which is uncaused has no determining factors; it's gotta be random.


Johnn H. Gerstner
Because every effect must have a cause, there must ultimately be one cause that is not an effect but pure cause, or how, indeed, can one explain effects? A cause that is itself an effect would not explain anything but would require another explanation. That, in turn, would require another explanation, and there would be a deadly infinite regress. But the argument has shown that the universe as we know it is an effect and cannot be self-explanatory; it requires something to explain it which is not, like itself, an effect. There must be an uncaused cause. That point stands.


There must be an uncaused cause which simply is. No need to argue about the reason that it is, because there is no reason that it is, it is uncaused.

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In the past, I had expressed the idea of a circular path of time.
However, the problem with this is that there's no reason why the circle as a whole exists, so I don't know.


So, even this theory would require an uncaused first cause.

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"every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause."
This would be a workable law, except for the fact that all effects, by definition, are caused. This says nothing of hypothetical events which are not effects.


Why should a law need to explain hypotheticals?

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The article doesn't explain all that much about how God can exist without cause besides saying that God's not a 'material effect'; well, is time itself a material effect? No, so I suppose time must've always existed without cause then!


If time is not a material effect, then we only know that it is not necessary by the given law that time had an adequate antecendent cause. It does not logically follow that time must have always existed without cause.

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But, if there's no cause, then... why?


This is a self-defeating question. If there were no cause, then there can be no answer to "why?". If there were an answer to "why?", then there would actually be a cause.

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The article's also misinformed on the subject of evolution.


Okay, but let's focus on the parts relating to the topic at hand.

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The judicial system does not punish criminals just because they 'deserve' it; which would require that they be morally responsible; the judicial system punishes criminals for specific purposes which require that even unaware law-breakers should be punished.
The judicial system does not punish the 'morally responsible', it punishes threats to society.


I see.

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1. What occurs is always slightly different from what is intended because we're not omnipotent, so it's inevitable that something will go slightly different from the 'pure intention'.
2. You're only responsible for what you intend because what you intend is the only thing that you cause: Everything else is completely out of your control. You're not responsible for thing which are completely out of your control, because you're irrelevent as far as these occurances are concerned.


Okay. However, those who sin intended to do that sin. They may not have known it was a sin, but they still did it with full intention.

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As with the judicial system: You must be of an age and mental condition so that you are aware of what is acceptable and unnacceptable to your society before you are charged with crimes. Guilt, as a matter of definition, is "remorseful awareness of having done something wrong".


Guilt could also mean "the fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense," which I think is a better definition in this context. The guilt that you referred to is simply the feeling that you get inside when you do something you know is wrong.

PreacherBoy


Dark Duei

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:45 pm


My eyes are tearing from all that reading. To me all I get is that we don't know how it started, though we claim such and such, nothing is just, even those that claim to be just themselves. Some things are inevitable though we try to think that it isn't. Since we can't escape it, we may as well all go to hell. It's like those impossibly high fares on one suite and the discount rooms of a hotel. Don't reply, I'm not good at quoting quoted quotes quoted from a quote before that that was quoted in tiny parts which also quoted from tiny parts as well from an original argument that may or may not have been quoted from a prior statement.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:38 pm


So many good subjects like this dropped from the high ranks of threads. I'm here for a revival.

Kutsuke

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*~Let the Fire Fall ~* A Christian Guild

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