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 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:51 pm
iMito As for the statement about choice, here's the facts, or theories rather: 3) Sociological - When someone joins a group, they often take on the behavioral patterns of that group. Gay people often have a history of being shunned and/or bullied. The idea is they get accepted by a group of people with homosexual tendencies and they adapt. 4) Situational - Becoming gay to relieve sexual tension or fulfilling the need for sex. Examples would be prisons or the military where there are an excess of men but little or no women. 5) Recreational - People with the mentality that sex is fun. Gender doesn't really matter, as long as you're getting sex, that's all that counts. 6) Choice - I know, I know "homosexuality isn't a choice." For the most part, that's right. However, there are situations where people actually do choose to become gay. For instance, a woman with power in the market place might look to another woman with power to form an alliance of sorts, instead of creating a distraction of men. It's convenient. Another example is when someone gets a divorce with someone of the opposite sex and was abused physically and/or mentally and have developed a phobia for men, and thus choose to be gay. If you provide this information and perhaps cite it [which I didn't do. sorry]-- then there's really no way to argue because you're using facts not. OMG BNG GAY IS NO CHOOS! Facts, statistics, and logic generally work better than hot headed ranting. Ok... one thing, these 3 things are based on the ACTIONS of people, and not if they are or aren't natural to that person. ie: feeling a conection. a spark. Chemistry, as people call it. Being naturally gay is NOT a choice. Acting gay, however is. Doing things with the same gender just because you can, or because "it's cool" is a choice, but does it come naturally? no. obiusly not if you choose it, right? do you choose to be straight, or is it natural to you? I guess, in other words, do heterosexuals choose to like the opposite gender?
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:01 pm
Oh and I think I should probably mention that I have a christian background. And no, God's word should NEVER be used in hate. It brings no honor to Him. He loves me, dispite my being Bisexual, because I believe in him, and help others like me find him.
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:14 pm
Amber6153 Oh and I think I should probably mention that I have a christian background. And no, God's word should NEVER be used in hate. It brings no honor to Him. He loves me, dispite my being Bisexual, because I believe in him, and help others like me find him. agreed, and id like to further that to the extent that nothing justifies hatred. had i been monothiestic, i would believe that a god loves me and the fact that im a lesbian.
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:07 pm
- Being gay's not natural.According to Webster's Dictionary, Love is Noun: (2): attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3): affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests Verb:1: to hold dear Now that I've defined the term love, I will be using the first definition to make my point. Being homosexual is just as 'natural' as being heterosexual. Webster defines 'natural' as "formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation", meaning that 'natural' is what is defined by humans, not nature itself. Love is natural, no matter the form. - The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus]. For one, Leviticus does not govern the lives of everyone in the world. Also, as I've been told by many Christians(in case you couldn't tell, I'm not christian), no one follows those laws. - It's just gross. That's an opinionated statement, and I can't argue personal opinions. All I can say is you can believe what you want. - It's a choice. Homosexuality isn't a choice. The only choice homosexuals have is to deny their hearts their true feelings. People can't help how we feel, and for that reason it's not a choice.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:15 pm
- Being gay's not natural.
Even though we are populating the Earth, we are kind of overpopulating it. We need to stop having as much kids folks. Less people means less trash and less trash means the longer Earth can stay here in its natural state. If we lose the Earth, we lose the meaning of natural. So let them be homosexual, have no kids, and marry for petes sake. They are helping the planet be as natural as possible for longer.
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
The ten commanents cancel anything in the old testiment and are absolute law that God gave to Moses to govern the people. We should follow the law directly from the source, not from some interpeter, because the interpecter is going to mess up sooner or later.
- It's just gross.
This is a opinion and you are intitled to it but I am also intitled to mine. Look in the Constitution of the United States. It is all there in black and white, clear as cystal.
- It's a choice.
This I do agree. I can choose to go out with a guy or a girl. It is my choice. Each day that passes by makes me a different person and changes me. If I choose to go out of the norm and go to the one I feel most comforable with, it is my choice. Of course, if you want to be straight, I have nothing against you, but please, give us all a favor and don't rub it in
our faces. It is creepy and annoying, plus it makes you look like an idiot.
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:13 am
WARNING: My spelling kinda sucks today...
- Being gay's not natural.
From a "science" point of view:
Soo... it is natural for me to fall in love with/be attracted to a male but not a female even though I have "the same" reactions in my body?
It's just natural as long as those hormones starts flowing if they're "caused" by a male?
Where's the logic?
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
So what?
The Bible and most other religious books state that LOVE is the most important thing.
Why keep on talking about a few things and ignore the big message?
I believe that if there is a God or Gods they probably want us all to be hippes with the whole peace, love and understanding!
- It's just gross.
Hah!
Well, love is beutiful, and that statement is probably more about sexual stuff!
And about that, hetrosexual sex is pretty gross too! xD
I'll say it like this:
Making out and having sex is really nice when you're involved in it and want to be involved and all that.
But wtf? I get grossed out when I see couples making out too much in public and maybe yell "Get a room!".
I don't see why it's just gay-sex that's gross!
- It's a choice.
It is? Huh, so that's why it took me so long to surpress my feelings for girls when I was a kid and thought something was wrong with me.
I made a choice and thought "No, I don't like girls!".
Sure, it hasn't happened anything yet, I still like girls, but I made a choice!
Feel the irony! xD
I didn't chose to fall in love with my current partner. I just did.
I didn't chose to be able to fall in love with or be attracted to both boys and girls. I just do. If I had been able to choose that'd have saved me from a LOT of confusion! If I had been able to say to myself "You like boys" and make it work (cuz' I had told myself that...) then I wouldn't have spent so much time wondering if I was normal (I didn't really get any info about diffrent sexualities until I was around 15) I'd just have told myself to be normal!
But then again... I can chose to follow my feelings or not. That is allways a choice.
I mean, I can chose to be a nun and live in celibacy.
I can chose to surpress my feelings towards a girl and wait until I fall in love with a guy and then I'll live happily ever ******** after, even if that girl is still in the back of my head asking me "What if you'd have been with me instead?"
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:20 pm
I am not very good at this stuff.I mean the debating and whatnot.Maybe i should leave. Anyway, I'm nice here.So this my first post.Well to begin I thank you for allowing me to join this guild. Now to the point.I believe there is nothing wroong with being gay or bisexual.I'm sure I'm off topic and that's proably a bad thing.Still, I believe that it is okay to be gay or bisexual.No one regardless of status or anything else should be allowed to say who someone can and can't love.No one has the right to mess with another person's life in the pursuit of happiness.At least that's what I think.
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Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:39 am
"Not natural:" I call this the Lego argument. It comes from the simplistic and ridiculous thinking of people with zero imagination. They think "men are outties, women are innies, they fit together like lego, it's obvious they belong together." They are probably this obtuse in all of their thinking.
Many people reach into the animal kingdom trying to show what is natural, but of course sex for pleasure, same-sex relationships, etc - these things are widespread in the animal kingdom as well. It's perfectly natural for a female praying mantis to decapitate her sex partner... so is that okay for us? Of course not, bad argument.
In fact, the "natural" argument is a bad one from the get-go. For starters, "natural" is not an objective, easily defined measure of anything. How do you define "natural?" How do you define "unnatural?" Once you have determined a definition for it, you still have not established its relationship to "right" and "wrong" or morality. Whether something is "natural" or not in "no way determines whether it's acceptable or okay or not.
Lots of people say that we should determine our sexual relationships as being purely procreative. We should only have sex to have babies. We should only marry if there is procreative potential there. That is nonsense. Sex has many other valuable qualities, outside of procreation. It can deepen intimacy and closeness between people, it is a source of pleasure, it is recreation and exercise. Between consenting adults, it is a much beloved activity that is most frequently done with the intention not to produce children. "Unnatural" is just not a good argument against sex for pleasure. As I said before, it's widespread in the natural world, especially among more intelligent creatures.
As for marriage for procreation... many people marry - indeed, many are married in churches that won't marry gays - who cannot or will not reproduce. An elderly couple is not going to have babies, do we prohibit them also? Do we insist upon proof of fertility before marrying? What about people who want to adopt? Surely they should be allowed to marry, even if you decide that marriage is only for parents. There are many gay couples who want to adopt, and statistics show that children parented by same-sex parents do as well as heterosexually parented kids on academic and psychological testing, etc... but the children of gay parents actually do better in one area - they are more sensitive to others and to difference and they are far less likely to divide chores, etc according to gender. These are healthy families, so why not get some of those kids out of foster care and into stable, loving families?
Marriage for the purposes of raising a family can't objectively be proven to be morally superior to marriage just to share a life together. Both are socially and culturally valued. The value judgment that "marriage is for procreation" is just someone's idea of what is good based on their religion. Religion is a separate issue.
The bible: I can actually argue this from a couple of different angles. For one, I have studied religions and history to the point that I have learned that a lot of that is mistranslation in the first place. I can argue that the bible is being misinterpreted, but why bother? The bible a) is not by any means an objective or reasonable standard for morality anyway and b) is a bronze-age mythology that is only culturally relevant today insofar as it has continued to attract followers (by intimidation and fear.)
The bible is not moral... it is full of random violence, a vengeful, spiteful and hateful god, enslavement of women and slavery in general is condoned in it, sexual abuse of children, rape, murder, genocide - all of these things are advocated and encouraged in the bible. By no means should it be considered any kind of standard to judge morality by. The few positive moral messages that get through to some people are far better learned elsewhere than the bible. It is absurd to suggest that it is "the word of god," and no one has proved it to be so. The Greek myths made the same claim, and we rightly understand that to be ridiculous now. Before anyone can reasonably argue that the bible's statements should have any bearing on our culture, they must first prove that the bible is our most important moral guide. No one has done that.
"It's just gross:" That is an indication of the cultural and social climate we find ourselves in, not an objective standard we can use to judge the merit of gayness by. Homophobia is widespread, people are uncomfortable with seeing gay couples because it's unusual and rare to them. Those are feelings that do pass once people are more exposed to gay couples. It is also worth noting that studies show that the people most likely to have strong homophobia are those people who have same sex attractions... they buy into the cultural message that we should hate gays, and when they feel same sex attraction they feel threatened and angry.
"It's a choice:" Whether it is a choice or not is irrelevant to whether it's okay or not. Studies show that sexual orientation is probably due to a combination of hormonal and environmental factors, is determined too early in life to be made as a conscious choice, and cannot be consciously changed. Who cares? The point is that consensual relationships between adults are and should be the choice of the adult and the individual to have. We live in 2008 not 1008. Let's evolve a bit culturally, shall we?
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:05 am
iMito Being gay is wrong. Prove me wrong. This is more insight for me than anything else, I'm not against homosexuality, clearly. However, I want to see how the members of this guild argue against the arguement condemning them. [Well, maybe not arguement, statement really.] Contradictory arguements to take into account: - Being gay's not natural. - The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus]. - It's just gross. - It's a choice. Ok that is degrading. Some of us are gay. We DO have the right to fall in love with WHOEVER we want.
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Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:43 am
Devil's Advocate:
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, sometimes one he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument. This process can be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure.
rolleyes
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:49 pm
Well...I've read through all of these posts. I can add nothing to it. If everyone knew this, I'm sure that...or maybe not.
Social conformity is too...strong for some people to just admit that they're gay or that they support homosexuals.
It's sad....
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Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:18 am
xX S P L I T Xx It's not a choice it's a chemical reaction in the brain or a biological disorder. Take your pick. i was sitting at lunch one day and one of my best friends says to someone who was debating about being gay and lesbian " being gay or lesbian is a disease, and being bisexual is like having bipolar disorder, see? its the same thing BIpolar, BIsexual, so people who are bisexual or gay or lesbian are diseased" i slapped the crap out of her and sat at a different table and never spoke to her again, i just couldnt believe she said that! you see, my thought is that being gay or lesbian or bisexual is like a woman being in love with a man, same with a man in love with a woman, its about LOVE! your supposed to love someone who is going to love you back and care for you, so matter what sex they are.
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:39 am
Being Gay is NOT a choice.
If I had the choice, I would pick straight in a heartbeat. In my opinion, Nobody chooses to be gay, they choose to act like it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:30 pm
* There are same-sex couples in other animal species.
* Not everyone follows Jesus.
* There is no such thing as a clean hole or a clean position. Not even heterosexuals can acheive that.
* Acknowledgement definitely is a choice. The alternative, however, is constant shame and paranoia over what others may think.
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:28 pm
I'm not going to argue the topic suggested here, even though I could for hours on end! i will, however, say that it is a little unorthodox to put something down in a guild meant to promote it. Excuse me, not promote, a guild meant to provide a sanctuary for those who don't want to listen to your kind of talk. People come here to escape arguing the subject you imply. Thank you.
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