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wolf-larsen
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:40 pm


Well I used the word gender instead of sex because that is the way it is used the most. But I apologize to the more grammatically correct of us. As far as my last point goes, I'm afraid I have to adapt my viewpoint, though I still say that the men were given an edge. As far as manly goes, well any woman that goes through the nine months, the 10 plus hour labor and 18 years of raising that kid, well she is a hell of a lot tougher than I am.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:41 pm


ImNotaFashionStatment
Oh my sweet lord, i read every bit of this thread.

first off i would like to say: Alezunde and Starlock, i have wet dreams to you two deabting. whee

Ok so this is the way i see it, The differances between humans is fundementaly phisical. I say this because i think that social differance must have been an off spring or an effect of phisical differances right? Because there wasnt always a social differance between men and women, it has been evolving over the years, like that one fishermen guy said', 60 years ago women had little rights or somthignliek that.



Edit:Adding s**t to make this more clear.

There have always been physical differances. So as were cave men and evolving depending on the envirmoent we have.( in my idea the enviroment that is there is very vital because how are physical differances are used depends on the enviroment which determins what people think of it aka social differances, this would explain why in that african tribe that the women have the mens role. they evolved in a differant enviroment) So now we were evolving we start advancing more, and start forming a society. Now in the beginings of society what would determin who goes where in the roles. Obviously since there was no society yet it couldnt be social differances right? So i agree with the statment on first post, because ther are no funemental differances besides physical.

(when i say enviroment i mean the actuall ecosystem like forest or dessert, not like your human enviroment)




Ok now what would put us into our places then? This is my own little theory, meaby not the right one but its one. I think that sex determined it. First a little factor of sex is that the women had babies, and by natral instinct they had to take care of them andleave men to do all the other work, which would make them weaker and the men stronger. Since steangth was the only thing that mattered in the very beggining they had the most power, and so as the evolving prosccess went on then the people with the most poewr got the better places in society, meaby not better but differant ( thats that what this thing is all about). And so as we evolve to today there ares still those modified differances.

next differance having to do with sex is shown through out the animal kingdom, which is men having to do actions that atract the female mate, now meaby we dont do a courtship dance but we do things like buy them s**t or get them what they want for sex, now this places us in differant roles, becuase we get stuff for them. This is a social differance that was created by the physical differance of sex.

hmmm, ill add more as i think of it.

ImNotaFashionStatment


Starlock

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:19 am


I'm going to challenge the notion that strength was the only thing that mattered in terms of human evolution. This is almost certainly not true, as strength is not our species highpoint. In terms of physical strength, we are terribly weak compared to other creatures. And think of the era we evolved in. Megafauna were still abundant. We couldn't take down these powerful animals by beating them with our fists, now, could we? It wasn't strength that was our key, it was cunning. Strength was only neccesary to execute the cunning plans to survive and capture prey. We had to be inventive and make tools to make up for our total lack of strength compared to nonhuman animals.

So, from a cunning perspective, both men AND women would have a strong need to develop this sort of skill. Men for hunting, and women for evasion of predators and protection of the kids.

There are probably some other factors in the mix beyond this, but in the end it is all conjecture. We can't exactly go back in time and empirically analyze the selective pressures on our species 10,000 years ago.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:09 pm


Starlock
I'm going to challenge the notion that strength was the only thing that mattered in terms of human evolution. This is almost certainly not true, as strength is not our species highpoint. In terms of physical strength, we are terribly weak compared to other creatures. And think of the era we evolved in. Megafauna were still abundant. We couldn't take down these powerful animals by beating them with our fists, now, could we? It wasn't strength that was our key, it was cunning. Strength was only neccesary to execute the cunning plans to survive and capture prey. We had to be inventive and make tools to make up for our total lack of strength compared to nonhuman animals.

So, from a cunning perspective, both men AND women would have a strong need to develop this sort of skill. Men for hunting, and women for evasion of predators and protection of the kids.

There are probably some other factors in the mix beyond this, but in the end it is all conjecture. We can't exactly go back in time and empirically analyze the selective pressures on our species 10,000 years ago.


First off when talking about streangth of women vs men, when women are pregnant they become less fragile and what not, thus they cannot hunt and the things that need to be done. And also strength was a big part when it came to see what human was better than what human( i dont see any other way, if you would think that the person that brought in the most kills or whatever was best, they would be over powered by some one stronger, and even though cunning was a big part in hunting, the stronger you were the better chanse you had to complete the plan, they never reallty had any thing more advanced than ambushing a mamoth or making it fall off a cliff), and women were not up there since they had babies and were fragile.(its just my theory is that they were pregnat all the time, this is becuase the average life span of a human was i think 18 back then, so for our race to survive they must of had a lot of babies).

ImNotaFashionStatment


Starlock

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:53 pm


(grins) I didn't say strength wasn't a factor, but it just is not the only factor. Our evolution is probably a bit more complex than to be broken down into things simply in terms of hunting strategy. Who gets the most kills is not directly related to fitness and natural selection. Simply getting *enough* kills that you can survive to reproduce. Now, as sexual selection comes into play, it is entirely possible that the male with the biggest or most kills would get more mates, but we can't prove this link either.

Average human life span in our early days was only 18 years? Women probably didn't even start menstruating until 15 or 16 (modern trends have noticed a decrease in menstraution age, so hypothetically it may have been around this number) so 18 seems too low to me. Do you have a source on this value? I'm extremely skeptical of this figure... sweatdrop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:15 pm


Starlock
(grins) I didn't say strength wasn't a factor, but it just is not the only factor. Our evolution is probably a bit more complex than to be broken down into things simply in terms of hunting strategy. Who gets the most kills is not directly related to fitness and natural selection. Simply getting *enough* kills that you can survive to reproduce. Now, as sexual selection comes into play, it is entirely possible that the male with the biggest or most kills would get more mates, but we can't prove this link either.

Average human life span in our early days was only 18 years? Women probably didn't even start menstruating until 15 or 16 (modern trends have noticed a decrease in menstraution age, so hypothetically it may have been around this number) so 18 seems too low to me. Do you have a source on this value? I'm extremely skeptical of this figure... sweatdrop




well you never know, they might have started menstrating earlier, and where i got it from was my history book like from 5 grade, ill go reaserch it more.And just for clerification, this is way way back, like pre farming days. I also remember that ever since farming was discovered the life pasn increaed durasticly. Also when i refer to it ha the most kills, i mean liek he brings the most game in so they make them their leader.

edit// you were right, the averag life span wasnt that low, but it was lower

accorrding to this sight the average life span was 20-35site


Edit: adding more

I agree with you, the human evoloution process was probly much much more complex. But, I think that those reasons are some of the factors that came into play when deciding on who should be where in society.

ImNotaFashionStatment


Aesh

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:32 pm


I promised my argument on this topic some time ago and due to some problems never came back to it. Therefore I present you with my still incomplete but mildly coherent break down of gender differences.

“Is it a boy or a girl?” It’s the question asked before all others when a child is born. Expectant parents want to know the sex of their child before they ask about its health, its weight, or any other physical aspect of the child. The answer to that question will define every moment of that child’s existence, socially, psychologically, and emotionally. The sex of a child is almost a life sentence, with social expectations and roles assigned to a child the moment their sex is determined. Doors are opened and doors are locked as a result of a single chromosome. The question facing the modern society, however, is just how different are the sexes? Are those differences hardwired into the genetic code or are they elicited by adult reactions to the child? Perhaps it’s something of an amalgamation? It is clear however, that being a boy or a girl, and later a man or a woman, does entail certain developmental differences. From infancy to late adulthood, gender and sex influence every facet of human life as children progressively wade through each stage of their physical, cognitive, and social development. The way parents talk to infants, the toys children play with, the subjects children are encouraged to study, the jobs adolescents take, the roles in parenthood, the way adults respond to each other…all of it hinges on the simple perception of being male or female.
Just where does sex begin though? And what is gender? Sex is determined within the first trimester of a pregnancy. The embryo is exposed to hormones determined at conception. As Sylvia Mader explains, Males and Females each have twenty-three pairs of chromosomes. Twenty-two of those pairs are made of up the genetic material for the same characteristics, but the twenty-third pair is the most important pair of the lot, for it is that pair which determines the sex of an individual. In females, the twenty-third pair is made of two X shaped chromosomes whereas the pair is made of an X and a Y chromosome in males (p. 350). Before the mental state of the child is even relevant enough to study, biological differences begin to emerge in a growing fetus. Males possess a p***s and females develop a v****a. Until later adolescence, that is the only physical difference between the sexes. Yet, adults seem to feel differently. Gender is the concept of being male or female. Where sex refers to the actual anatomy of males and females, gender concerns the perceptions individuals and society has of what male and female is. As Robert Feldman (2005) points out, Adults talk to, play with, and describe the behavior of infants differently solely based on that perceived gender of a child (p. 181). In fact, when shown the same infant in both a typically male outfit and a typically female outfit, the responses to that child changed. Adults described the child as strong and definitively masculine or sweet and definitively feminine simply because of what the infant wore.
Parents tend to interact differently with their children based on gender with fathers typically spending more time with their sons and mothers typically spending more time with their daughters. Robert Feldman (2005) notes that studies have show that fathers tend to engage in more ‘rough and tumble’ styles of play while mothers tend to engage in activities geared towards emotional stimulation (p. 197). Even the speech employed with children is sex determined. Looking back at Feldman’s (2005) work, he states that by the time girls are about three years old, they are exposed to twice as many diminutives as boys. A bird is a birdie, a blanket is a blankie, and a dog is a doggie (p. 181) As they grow older the use of diminutives with girls does decline, rather noticeably, but consistently remains more prominent than with boys. Boys, in turn, are exposed to much more assertive language. When dealing with boys, parents clearly use “yes” or “no,” but with girls the answer is something softer, such as “sure” or “not right now.” While there is no immediate link between this difference in speech modes and later adult expression, there is a very marked difference in the way men and women speak. Men are bolder and more aggressive and women are rather tentative and less direct.
Some distinct gender differences have been noted in infants, but they have little to do with their cognitive abilities and don’t seem to reflect on the development of the child after infancy. Once again, it is Feldman that notes that male infants are typically fussier and more active and their sleep seems more disturbed than their female counterparts (p. 206) Boys also seem to grimace more but are, overall, no fussier than girls. This doesn’t seem to justify the different attitudes adopted by parents and teachers when selecting what toys boys and girls will play with or the social pressure put on infant boys and girls to start conforming to preconceived gender roles. It is true that boys tend to prefer toys such as blocks and toy cars while girls prefer dolls and plush toys, but often those are the only things provided for them to play with. If boys display any interest in typically feminine toys there is a rather negative response. Such reinforcement only increases with time and age. The societal double standard regarding gender begins to emerge in this stage, as girls are not as discouraged from playing with ‘masculine’ toys as boys are from playing with ‘feminine’ toys.
The schism continues as infants begin taking those first, tenuous steps on their own. From that moment, parents display a tendency to foist their boys into the world and keep their girls at their hips. The exploratory behavior of boys is encouraged and fostered while girls are still held more and exposed to more physical contact. Referring back to Feldman (2005), it is because of this disparity in treatment, boys show greater independence and less compliance by the age of two than girls do (p. 207) Of course, are such differences solely the product of the attitudes and treatment boys and girls receive? Girls exposed to the male hormone androgen, have displayed characteristics typical of little boys which has raised issues concerning the importance of genetic factors in the aforementioned gender behaviors.
As children pass through infancy, they arrive at the preschool years and face a whole new set of gender issues present themselves as children begin to noticeably grow, both physically and cognitively. By the time children reach two years old, they are, on average, half the height of the average adult. After two though, boys and girls being marching down a more observable path of gender specific traits. Physically speaking, boys and girls begin to display quite noticeable differences in height and weight with boys becoming typically taller and heavier than girls. In these preschool years, boys are also more predisposed to injure themselves due to their greater independence and higher level of activity as well as a tendency to take a greater amount of risk.
Cognitively, the brain of boys and girls begins showing the first signs of true differentiation among the genders. Pulling from studies in Brain and Language, it is, once again, Feldman (2005) that makes note that, as children’s brains begin to lateralize, boys and girls begin exhibiting differences in which hemisphere of the brain controls lower body reflexes and the processing of auditory information (p. 223). For example, girls typically display a less localized area of language, with ability and processing divided up rather evenly between the two hemispheres. Boys, on the other hand, seem to lean toward the left hemisphere as their center of language begins to form. It is also clear that girls tend to speak sooner and tend to use more complex sentences. Proponents of the genetic factors point to the issue of gender wiring. They point out that male and female brains are made to operate differently. There is some support to this view, for the corpus collosum in females is proportionately larger in women than in men. However, the social aspect of the language issue persists as some argue that girls may develop superior verbal skill during the preschool years due to the greater exposure girls have to language. Girls are spoken to more often and are encouraged to be more verbal than boys generally are.
In areas of motor development, boys begin to show a greater capacity for gross motor skills. As boys begin to grow, they begin to exhibit greater muscular strength and are more active than girls. Of course, girls show a greater skill with fine motor skills, in part because of the activities they are encouraged to undertake. While boys are generally able to outperform girls in feats of overall strength and stamina, girls are more coordinated and less apt to be clumsy. Interestingly enough however, it is during the preschool years that children begin displaying a tendency to use one hand over the other. Without any real explanation, of the ten percent of left-handed people more boys are left handed than girls.
The preschool years also signal the emergence of gender expectations as preschoolers begin to develop a sense of their gender and what is ‘gender appropriate.’ While discussing the development of personality in preschoolers, Robert Feldman (2005) discusses the emergence of a gender identity (p. 262). Preschoolers’ expectations of such gender appropriate behavior is often more rigid than the stereotypical views adults hold. Preschoolers themselves expect that boys should be more competent, more independent, more forceful, and more competitive. Preschoolers also expect that females exhibit traits involving warmth, expressiveness, nurturance, and submissiveness. In terms of play, preschoolers also begin to display same-sex preferences for playmates, with girls beginning this trend slightly sooner than boys and generally doing things that involve role-playing and organization as opposed to the rough and tumble style pr play boys lean toward.
There are several views expressed concerning this gender differentiation as it emerges in preschoolers. Biologically, some researchers point to hormones as a plausible cause for such divergence among boys and girls. Evidence to support this is exhibited in girls exposed to androgen and boys exposed to estrogen. Such children displayed dispositions and preferences for activities and toys typical of the opposite sex. It is Feldman (2005) that presents the Social Learning Perspective and notes that it argues that it is through social referencing that preschoolers devise their gender expectations (p. 264). Television, for example, presents a powerful tool for preschoolers. With most preschoolers watching around twenty-one hours of television a week, the fact that females are defined almost always in terms of their relationship with males and are almost always in the role of victims only supports preconceived gender roles. While men are dominant and assertive, women are submissive and less apt to be the decision makers. Male characters also outnumber female characters almost two to one. Social Learning also addresses more direct reinforcement of gender roles. Girls are generally told to act like a “little girl,” which implies polite and courteous behavior, while boys are told to be a “little man,” implying a tough and stoic attitude. Hence expressions like, “big boys don’t cry.” On that note, it is during this time that terms such as ‘tomboy’ and ‘sissy’ begin to emerge. Such terms only serve to bolster the souble standard concerning socially accepted gender roles.
Cognitively, theorists believe that preschoolers develop a gender schema to categorize gender related information and a gender identity within that schema. Cognitive theorists also point out that preschoolers seem to base their ideas of gender on external appearance rather than biological differences. It isn’t until around the age of seven that children truly grasp the idea of gender constancy completely. James Coleman and Donald Cressey (1992) put forth that it is at this time that preschoolers begin to engage in gender socialization and begin their sexual stereotyping (p. 25 cool .
As children advance beyond the preschool years, they enter middle childhood and their cognitive abilities begin to grow with startling swiftness. One aspect of middle childhood is the development of morality. However, Carol Gilligan (1993) believed that girls underwent a different state of moral development than boys (p. 1). Lawrence Kohlberg believed that all children progressed through six stages of general moral development beginning with preconventional morality, moving through conventional morality, and ending at postconventional morality. Gilligan believed, however, that girls enter a stage of “orientation toward individual survival” where they try to focus on their own needs and gradually progress to a stage of “goodness as self-sacrifice” in which they focus on the wants of others over their own needs, and from a stage of “goodness” to a stage of “truth” in which females are able to handle both the needs of other as well as their own. Gilligan believed that the final stage for a woman was one of “morality of nonviolence,” and in this stage women came to realize that it is wrong to hurt anything or anyone, including themselves. In Gilligan’s belief, this was the most sophisticated level of moral reasoning.
Socially, children are beginning to develop a sense of themselves and it is during middle childhood that the early predisposition for same sex play groups becomes much more visible. This segregation by sex is almost universal in all societies. During this time, boys and girls may attempt to make tentative forays into another gender’s territory and such actions generally carry romantic overtones. This form of experimentation is termed border work and it serves to clearly define the walls that separate the sexes.
There is also a noted difference in how boys and girls interact when they play amongst their groups. Boys generally have much larger groups and stick to rowdy and competitive games. There is also a pronounced dominance hierarchy in boy groups. With one boy the leader of the pack, each boy within the group seeks to maintain, and possibly enhance, his place within this hierarchy. This makes for a restrictive style of play as a boy will stop the game when he feels his status is being challenged. Because of this style of play and interaction, boys generally tend to play in sporadic episodes. Girls, on the other hand, have a very small group, often only one or two other girls who earn the title ‘best friend.’ The hierarchy of boys is generally absent in girl groups as each member is relatively equal and it seems that girls actually attempt to minimize or shy away from differences in status. Where arguments among boys can be loud and possible violent as they attempt to prove themselves unquestionable ‘right,’ girls prefer to settle things through compromise and avoid the issue of who is ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’ The rationale to this method is that girls seek to maintain that equal status among those they consider friends and to force a point would jeopardize that balance.
Children are not free of outside influences either. Studies concerning the influence of teachers on school children have supported ideas concerning the success of children in school. Typically, boys receive more attention, both positive and negative, than girls do. Teachers seem to focus more on boys than on girls in a classroom setting. Part of this is because boys are more outspoken in such a setting. Having been encouraged to be more assertive and open James Coleman and Donald Cressey (1992) state that boys tend to find the docile, cooperative behavior expected of schoolchildren far more frustrating than girls (p. 259).
Continuing down the path of development, children leave middle childhood for adolescence, one of the most tumultuous stages in life. It is during this stage that children begin going through puberty and more pronounced differences between the sexes become noticeable. For girls, puberty means a sudden spurt in height as well as the emergence of breasts and the beginning of their menstrual cycle. By eleven or twelve, most girls begin to experience dramatic jumps in height that leave them taller than boys on the average. However, as they start sooner, so do they end sooner and most girls finish this growth spurt while boys are still in the middle of theirs. This leaves the average male noticeably taller than the average female.
For girls, puberty entails quite a dramatic change. The v****a and uterus undergo developmental change as they gear up for reproduction. Girls begin to develop breasts and pubic hair as well as underarm hair. Many developmentalists believe that puberty truly begins for girls after menarche, the first period a girl has. Boys do not deal with quite so noticeable changes. The p***s and scrotum start to grow around the age of twelve and the prostate gland and seminal vesicles also begin to start producing semen. Pubic hair, underarm hair, and facial hair all begin to emerge between the age of twelve and fifteen. Boys’ voices also deepen as a result of their larynx grows longer and larger. Both sexes deal with a spiked level of hormones that may lead to a rollercoaster of mood swings. In boys, these mood swings are usually ones of anger and annoyance, while girls are more likely to experience anger and depression.
The attitudes taken toward these chances vary among the genders. Girls generally tend to be open with their mothers about the beginning of menstruation and they way the feel about their bodies. Boys, on the other hand, rarely mention their first ejaculation and tend to keep their thoughts and feelings about their budding sexuality to themselves. Of course, when boys and girls begin to mature affects the feelings and opinions they have about it. With boys, the early onset of puberty is something they consider more positive. Such boys are generally better at sports activities and also tend to be more popular among their peers. This leads to a more positive self-image for such boys. However, early maturation does seem to have its downsides. According to Feldman (2005), boys who mature early are more apt to have difficulties in school and are more likely to become involved in delinquency and substance abuse (p. 389). Boys who suffer the late onset of puberty seem to suffer rejection from their peers because they are seen as less attractive and they are less likely to participate in sports. Because of their inability to perform at the level of their early-maturing counterparts, late-maturing boys may suffer from degraded self-images due to a lack of much positive social interaction.
The story is rather different with girls. Those who begin puberty early may find it difficult to cope with the sudden changes in their bodies and the social attention it brings. Even if they achieve a greater popularity because of their physical attributes, such girls may not be ready for the social pressures presented by the issue of dating and relationships. Unlike late-maturing boys however, late-maturing girls do not seem to suffer quite as much social ridicule. While they may be overlooked during middle school, these girls usually begin to show signs of their maturation by the tenth grade. In fact, such girls may be even happier with themselves than early-maturing girls because they tend to fit the stereotype of the slender figure more so than their early-maturing counterparts.
Socially, adolescents are beginning to enter the stage of formal operations and they begin to think independently. It is during this time that gender roles begin to take on more socially powerful overtones. Coleman and Cressey (1992) note that with the coming of adolescence, it is girls who find their lives increasingly restricted by the demands of their gender role (p. 259). Girls find themselves under close watch by adults and their behavior under more scrutiny than boys. Coleman and Cressey (1992) also argue out that girls learn that appearing too assertive will make it more difficult to form the marital relationship that traditional standards hold to be so critical to the rest of their lives (p. 259).
It is during this period of maturation that adolescent sexuality begins to emerge. In fact, a recent estimate, supplied by Feldman (2005), placed eighty percent of adolescents have had sexual intercourse in some form or fashion before the age of twenty (p. 440). Of course, there is a disparity in just what boys and girls think when it comes to sex. As Leonard Sax states, “most young women enjoy physical intimacy more when it develops in the context of a loving relationship” and “teenage boys want to have sex to satisfy sexual desire” (p. 125) Sax actually equates male sexual desire to a bowel movement in terms of how it registers in the male brain. For boys, sex is little more than an impartial urge, but for girls it is a signal of emotional commitment. Reaching back to Feldman’s (2005) figures, he shows that this increased sexual activity among teenagers has led to unwanted teen pregnancies (p. 443).
Gender differences after adolescence are less pronounced as boys and girls become young men and women. Having more or less settled into their respective gender roles, the only differences are simply ones that began in the middle childhood years. However, Coleman and Cressey (1992) point out that in Western society, traditional roles of females and males are not only substantially different but also unequal (p. 261). Brinkerhoff and White (1985) offer evidence supporting that statement when they state that in fields of conventional achievement, women have succeeded less well than men (p. 267). Women’s abilities are underplayed in the areas of math and science and women are socially driven out of fields such as engineering and physical sciences. In the work force Brinkerhoff and White (1985) mention that one-third of female workers are in clerical occupations with jobs generally nonunion, poor wages, low benefits, and a very short (if even present) career ladder (p. 267).
Gender differences persist in such fashion for the rest of human development. It isn’t until late adulthood that another gender double standard rears its head as men and women begin to show the signs of their aging. Feldman (2005) notes that society seems to deem the graying hair of a man as a sign of character that makes him more distinguished, but wrinkles and silver streaks mark a woman as ‘over the hill’ (p. 589). When confronting the issue of death, gender differences make their final impression on life, for it seems that women outlive men by an average of seven years, or so says Feldman (2005) (p. 603).
Gender is a brand that relegates each and every person into one of two places. Reasons both social and biological make both of the genders unique and intriguing. The path each person walks in life is ultimately defined by their gender. The root of some psychological problems and the reason for certain behaviors can be traced to gender. It is gender people use to identify themselves with the rest of the world and even in a society attempting to remain as androgynous as possible, gender will continue to set the mold for how each and every person develops, from birth to death.

References
Coleman, J. W., & Cressey, D. R. (1992). Social Problems (5th ed.).New York, NY: HarperCollins College Publishers
Feldman, R. S. (2005). Development Across the Life Span (3rd ed.). Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall
Mader, S. S. Human Biology (8th ed.). McGraw-Hill Companies
Brinkerhoff, D. B., & White, L. K. (1985). Sociology. St. Paul, MN: West ` Publishing Company
Felder, R., Felder, G., Mauney, M., Hamrin, C., & Dietz, J. (1995). A Longitudinal Study of Engineering Student Performance and Retention: Gender Differences in Student Performance and Attitudes. Journal of Engineering Education, 151-163. Retrieved April 12, 2005 from the World Wide Web: http://onlineethics.org/div/abstracts/genderdif.html
Notes on “In a Different Voice” by Carol Gilligan. Retrieved April 13, 2005 from the World Wide Web: http://www.acypher.com/BookNotes/Gilligan.html
Sax, L. (2005) Why Gender Matters: What Parents and Teachers Need to Know about the Emerging Science of Sex Differences: Random House


Yeah, it's kind of thrown together last minute, but I needed to get something up, so forgive the impromteau nature of the article and the mistakes replete throughout the piece.

^^
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:44 am


Men and women do act differently, and here's why. There are fundamental physiological and psychological differences between men and women. Men tend to be more influenced by the physical, here-and-now aspects of a situation, while women tend toward the emotional, long-term effects.

Because men and women are influenced by different things, their reactions to a situation will be different. Thought processes go through hormones differently. A man will be more direct, and a woman more subtle. The very fact that men and women are structured differently means that their first instincts will be different. Of course, first instincts can be overruled, and often are, but the chain of thoughts is initiated by this first reaction.

This is not to say that men cannot be subtle, or that women cannot be direct. They're just not built to be. One of the reasons that the Soviet Union fell apart was a failure to recognize the basic differences in men and women. By not providing manufacturing facilities for feminine hygiene products (on the basis that if men don't need it, neither do women), they failed to provide sufficient incentive for women to continue support of a communist regime.

From the moment of conception, there are excessive differences in males and females. Approximately 8 out of 9 fetuses conceived are male, and yet the ratio of live births of males to females is approximately 1:1. The reason for this is that a male fetus is much more likely to spontaneously abort early in pregnancy. Females tend to have more staying power in the womb. Why? The female body already has the necessary materials and nutrients stored for the proper development of females. For the proper development of males, outside nutrition is needed. This is because males and females are different.

Scorpo


Alissa Meningford

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:11 pm


Scorpo
Men and women do act differently, and here's why. There are fundamental physiological and psychological differences between men and women. Men tend to be more influenced by the physical, here-and-now aspects of a situation, while women tend toward the emotional, long-term effects.

Because men and women are influenced by different things, their reactions to a situation will be different. Thought processes go through hormones differently. A man will be more direct, and a woman more subtle. The very fact that men and women are structured differently means that their first instincts will be different. Of course, first instincts can be overruled, and often are, but the chain of thoughts is initiated by this first reaction.


I will return and read all of the posts that I haven't read yet, but for now I would like to reply to Scorpo's post:

You're making a rather large number of assumptions in making your statements.
It does not seem to me that men are concerned with the here-and-now aspect of any situation any more than women are.
Everyone is concerned with the emotional effects of a situation and everyone is concerned with the happenings of their immediate situation -- however, long-term thoughts seem to be an individual preference.
Also, I have thus far seen no proof that even implies that women tend to be more subtle than men, or vice versa.
Subtlety also seems to be more a trait of the individual.


-Alezunde

P.S. Once I have read through all of the replies, I may post my final opinion on the matter.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:52 pm


Scorpo
From the moment of conception, there are excessive differences in males and females. Approximately 8 out of 9 fetuses conceived are male, and yet the ratio of live births of males to females is approximately 1:1. The reason for this is that a male fetus is much more likely to spontaneously abort early in pregnancy. Females tend to have more staying power in the womb. Why? The female body already has the necessary materials and nutrients stored for the proper development of females. For the proper development of males, outside nutrition is needed. This is because males and females are different.


Al already said what I would have on the rest of this post, so I'll poke at this one. Source, please? I'm 99% certain that the ascertation that 8/9 fetuses conceived are male. It's virtually entirely random which sperm gets to the egg. A man's sperm, because of how meiosis works, would have half of them set for male, half set for female. I find it extremely hard to believe that somehow, between the man's ejaculation and the conception that the woman somehow eliminates the majority of the female X-bearing sperm. But I won't bore you with the biological nonsensicalness of the asceration any further.

And what's this about a final opinion Al? I thought opinions were fluid and ever changing. =P Else ya risk becoming closed-minded and rigid... not open to new information, ya know. wink

Starlock


Alissa Meningford

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:46 pm


I've also heard that most fetuses concieved are female, and then grow into a male if the Y-chromosome was received from the inseminating sperm.

It won't be a 'final' opinion of course. wink
The point of the entire topic was to discuss and determine whether or not there was a difference between men and women.
While my opinion in no way will be final or absolute, I thought I might post a 'final' statement influenced by the points brought up so far. smile
One of my reasons is that I have not been logging onto Gaia as frequently of late, so I haven't had as much to contribute the discussion.
I might as well post my thoughts before I fade off the face of Gaia. biggrin

However, it's certainly alright to continue the discussion past my statement. :p


-Alezunde
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:21 am


Hmm. I had been under a different impression... but I can admit when I am wrong. Perhaps a source check is in order...

Scorpo


Digital Leviathan

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:12 pm


I'm a gender schema theorist. I believe that there is absolutely no psychological difference between men and women apart from what is learned.

Phisiological differences are there of course. But have no bearing on psychology. I think that organ-differences mean exactly nil. If I have one kidney am I a different person completely?

Also, I want to dispell a myth right now. In the begining people were matriarchal. They believed that women were divine beings that created life. In many societies the High-Priestess would pick a man every year, and he would be sacrificed for the fertility of the harvest, then she would pick a new man. Women were the heads of households.

Then they found that sex was linked to child birth. They then believed men to be the sole creator of the child, and that the woman was merely the "fertile ground". Thus the reason we go by our father's last names. Thus why they called sperm "seed" in the bible. Thus why the society became patriarchal. Men were the source of life afterall.

Now. Now we see that men and women are 50/50 when it comes to creating a child. And as you can see, with this new knowledge we're entering an age of gender-equality. Though the teachings of old are patriarchal and masogynistic, those people are finally dying out and we can enter an age where we can be compared by our character, and not by what we carry in our pants.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:22 am


Alezunde
Here's an interesting topic that I came across while conversing with someone the other day.

What are the fundamental differences between men and women?
Are there any differences between men and women?

As far as I can tell so far, there are no differences.
There are certainly physical and physiological differences, but when it comes to fundamental behavorial differences, I think that there are none.

Psychologically, men and women act the same.
Gender plays no role when men and women are experiencing emotions, or when they are pursuing intellectual activities.
Gender plays no role in the nature of a person's social interactions.

I believe differences that are there are society-imposed.
(We were raised a certain way, and it has been imprinted into our minds that we should act a certain way according to our gender.)

Let's discuss, and attempt to discern the truth. ^_^

-Alezunde


Psychology is the brain, the brain is physiology. Men and women are intrinsically physiologically different. As regards natural body shape, natural muscle density, arrangements of synapses and socio-emotional genetic predisposition.

these predispositions can be overruled, but that does not make men and women fundamentally psychologically the same.

Invictus_88


Invictus_88

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:27 am


Alezunde
Men and women have very similar bodies - all of the proportion are the same.
The only differences, aside from the chest and groin, are very subtle.
As an artist, I have observed this.
(It is very hard to differentiate men and women when drawing because of these sometimes ridiculously subtle differences.)


Firstly, the physical differences are usually quite obvious. Men almost always having broader shoulders and women usually having wider hips. Were it not the case then there would be nothing special made of people who look physically androgynous. And there is.

Secondly, physical differences based upon genetics are not always so obvious. Many are hormonal predispositions and thus down to the physical arrangement of the brain and glands.
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