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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:58 pm
I'm gonna agree that, although I like the idea of roleplay points (especially if 4 250 word solos count as 1 point) that 20pts is still a lot for most people. I'm a pretty exceptional writer, and I can accomplish in a day what a lot of people might not be able to manage in a week. 20,000 words is nearly half a NaNoWriMo– probably a whole half if words don't tick over from RP to RP. Even if that was all meta RPs– which, given that metas will probably occur less than once a month, that's still 10,000 words.
I think 10 would be fairer, plus other requirements! Like I said, 10pts, plus at least one roleplay that highlights a growth of personality/maturity/lack of growth despite that being decidedly abnormal.
Possibly with a need for someone to get 15pts if they're all one-on-one and solo RPs, so two people by themselves cannot smash through their mutual ascension requirements reliably, every month.
Also, "raffle" is a scary word. I doubt that ascension is going to require, say, a special spirit quest or anything that one can FAIL to ascend through. It's just a matter of ensuring fair prioritization– There's X slots and they are not CHOSEN, they are ROLLED FOR. 100 ponies are ready to ascend? Artists can commit to grow 20? Then bam, 20 rolled from that list of 100.
Possibly the simple act of ENTERING in a monthly raffle is enough to retain a reservation on a domain. Potentially also: people have a max number of domain reservations: capped at, say, 3 total. Forever. After that it's just good luck chuck.
IDEAS FOR THE ASCENSION RAFFLE: People can only enter as many pegicorns as they have earned the opportunities for, -but- can only ever ascend one at most. They win? All the others are taken off the list and the rerolling is done from that.
Two: give smaller requirements, and each RP point counts as a ticket, plus an extra ticket per extra RP completed for extra RP points, PLUS low luck tickets (which may go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, [guaranteed after that next month].
Potentially also: one will have -x tickets for each alicorn they own, providing a natural handicap. This could potentially go in the same manner as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. This would mean, to get your sixth alicorn, you need to complete 16 RP points to get a SINGLE TICKET in for an ascension; thereby preventing people from dominating consistently in the raffle. Everyone has chances based on the effort they are able to put in and the number of times they enter, with increasing chances as further roleplay development and subsequent failures occur.
RLC could have an added cost for people getting subsequent ascensions/alicorns. +$5 per alicorn one has existing? And a $5 or $10 smaller base price for ascensions ONLY, maybe.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:36 am
Whoop, responses!
The reason I want to limit Alicorn purchase in RLC is because those with money could just go the Alicorn route continuously and get like 3 Alicorn's in one go and not go for Pegicorn's. They will have an advantage others do not, and while I do need cash, I also don't want this to become a pay to win. I DO like the idea of limiting slots for yourself, and letting you purchase for other people as much as you want, though.
Say, a customer can only buy themselves one full Alicorn every two months. Awesome. Cool. However, they can also buy someone with 0 Alicorn's one for a discounted price, on top of that. It would allow for users to gift as they wish, should they wish.
Meanwhile, Pegicorn's will be given out via games still, and you'll see the occasional free Alicorn.
For the raffle; I'm going to start with I do not want an option that allows you to automatically ascend them the second you finish requirements at the moment. Thinking back on how the shop already is growing rapidly and how I personally cannot meet demand if say 10+ people request an ascension in a week or two, there needs to be a way to limit how many I and other colorists take. We won't always be able to do the same volume of ponies we did in another month. Things come up. I need a way to safely ensure we can make sure we only do what we physically can and do not end up disappointing customers by taking on work that will wait weeks or even several months to be filled, all the while having more work pile up.
I am okay with having it that someone can only ascend one Pegicorn a month, with the added needing to wait 30 days since being an adult. I just need a system that isn't just 'I open a thread and everyone who enters ascends all at once'. That isn't something I can manage.
I can lower the points needed from 20 to instead 10, if that's more feasible?
Also, I do like your ideas Ishda, I'd like to see how other customers feel, too!
(( Going to refrain from commenting thoughts on Alicorn breedings atm, since I need us to figure the RLC/how ascensions happen first before we tackle a third topic. I get overwhelmed very easily ; u ; ))
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:50 am
I know this is a topic for later discussion but before I do forget I want to mention that maybe AlicornxAlicorn breedings should need to be roleplayed in order to breed with each other. Unlike other species in the shop Alicorns and their domains hold a lot of weight over the lore of the shop and any pairing be it a one time breeding fling or something permanent needs to be fleshed out in some manner. I know it's harder for some people to find the time for roleplay which was brought up in the discussion about Pegicorn ascension maybe Alicorn breeding roleplays should count as one completed RP between the Alicorns involved that's length is up to what the two or three individuals see fit.
Obviously during events such as blind breedings you can forgo this as you wouldn't get the chance to meet your partner, but you could always to a small solo rp describing your Alicorn signing themselves up for this kind of event, or how they think about children if canonly they didn't sign up for it before they ended up dreaming a charm anyways.
If there are going to be roadblocks into obtaining Alicorns and ascending Pegicorns I would rather those roadblocks be roleplay, time, effort instead of money, chance, or extreme limitations based on who already has what. That last one is biased however because I already own two, and while I love all the other species I have ideas in my head about Alicorns that I want to have realized. Eventually however we're going to start to see regulars owning more Pegicorns and Alicorns as time goes by and that measures of limiting how much someone owns will be less viable. I don't know. I'm willing to roleplay for Alicorns and Pegicorns, wait for them, and pay for them but I can't compete with increases in RLC costs. I'm also worried that the limitations discussed is becoming too excessive, it might become too much for the vast majority of the users to be able to hurtle over them and looking at them right now I'm wondering to myself if I'm willing to go through all this work and effort if graduating my ponies onto the Alicorn line art if it starts to feel more of a chore and less of an excitement and joy that it should be to write, complete, and receive.
As for the raffle discussion at the time that I commented I didn't think about the reality of not being able to keep up with customer demand in a completed ascension form thread. That is a real possibility which makes me understand the limitations of what you and the other artists may be able to complete. Another alternative route would be to only do so many forms a month in chronological order of the ascension list that you can handle, and in the next month or in the next period of time you decide to do more ascensions (could be longer than a month) artists go back to where the last person left off in the list and continue from there. As artists are going through the lists they can check who's still on cooldown to receiving an ascension and move onto the next person. People can update their forms with the number of roleplays they've been a part of too if that counts for something in that scenario.
My only concern with raffles is people getting frustrated after putting in so much work to having to wait on chance months if not years at a time to get a win an ascension because it is possible with a raffle only scenario that someone might end up waiting that long or never getting an ascension at all. It is possible so there needs to be failsafes so that doesn't occur. I think Ishtadaal was trying to come up with failsafes too and was on the right track. If you do chance raffles please also consider having CC ascensions that people can sign up for designed for getting the oldest ascension forms created for people who've yet to win one within a certain frame of time and not based on if an artist like a concept better than another. Be it five to six months or longer after receiving at least one ascension to be able to go back on that CC list.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:26 pm
I definitely agree with Alicorn breedings needing to be RP-Required. Not too strict, maybe no super hard requirement length, but it needs to feel 'finished' in order to qualify?
I'm also very much against turning ascensions into a chance thing. An alternative to that, and to keep things calm for us colorists, would be, perhaps, to have a thread open every month? Perhaps just a stickied 'Ascensions' thread where colorists can put up how many slots they're going to take for an ascension that opening. Pegacorns are then submitted with their roleplays and maybe a blurb as to why they should ascend, and the colorists pick from the pool? Of course, there does need to be protection against someone submitting over and over and never getting picked (A low luck protection of sorts)?
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:40 pm
I hate, hate, hate the idea of CC ascensions. If not everyone gets a colored ascension, and if it's not first-come-first-served, then chance is BEST because it avoids any potential artist bias!
I disagree with Alicorn breedings needing to be RP-required. Some people are scared to RP and it would make it more difficult for them to get something else that other people can.
That said, I am also in favor of AlicornxAlicorn not guaranteeing all Alicorn-or-pegicorn babies, instead treating Alicorns like a HYBRID, and therefore, having the possibility of babies also being regular old earth ponies, unicorns, and pegasi.
Anything which makes Alicorns breed as similarly as possible to other races is ideal! Even if it's a 1/4 chance to have an alicorn in the hybrid method I suggested, even if one were to get a breeding of 4 foals that would be an average of 1, -maybe- 2, in a breeding, possibly with a pre-agreement on who in the breeding gets first dibs, a rolling channel in case people can't agree and want to be fair, AND a potential rule that if two alicorn parents have foals, the alicorn foal -has- to go to someone who has not received an alicorn or pegicorn in the past X amount of time (say, a month).
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:34 am
I'm also a little wary on CC ascensions because there will be unintentional bias on the designs and themes the artist likes, or what they think they are capable of recreating. That being said if an artists doesn't think they are able to recreat the art of the pegicorn then it's more than acceptable if they ask someone else take up that burden like the person who created the pegicorn to begin with.
So if there isn't enough artists to take up the burden of ascension so that everyone gets one, then I think the only way to avoid CC or to avoid raffles which honestly the idea of which scares and bothers me, then artists should have to go down the list of first come first serve. Going down the list artists look at if the person on the list fits the requirements, if they filled out their form correctly, if they are not on cooldown and if so skip over them. If need be have pegicorns on longer cooldowns if one month isn't enough. If you have a first come first serve list it's not as though you can't have raffles on top of that or give them out as event prizes.
So maybe create something similar to certing subform for customers to post a form for their pegicorns only when they've reached the requirement, and a staff member goes through those forms to make sure they are correct and truthful and adds the customers name to a list on the front post of the subforum. When an artist takes decides to take up ascensions they go to the front post and edit when from that point the customer will be able to receive their next ascension and take the customers numbered placeholder off the list once they've recieved their ascension. To even make it a bit of a longer wait time on ascensions make it so cooldowns don't begin until the Alicorn is dropped and received.
Using some names of customers who responded to this topic I'm going to make an example of what that list might look like.
Ascensions to complete in order of submitted and approved forms:
1. Ishtadaal (Ascension being worked on)
2. Midnight Holographic (Ascension being worked on)
3. Yushika (Ascension being worked on)
4. Variable Nonsense
5. White Trickster Rabbit
6. Ishtadaal
7. Koiasi
8. Kivras
9. Yushika
10. Midnight Holographic
(After the Alicorns art is dropped.)
Ascensions to complete in order of submitted and approved forms:
1. Variable Nonsense
2. White Trickster Rabbit
3. Ishtadaal (Cannot receive ascensions at least until September 3)
4. Koiasi
5. Kivras
6. Yushika (Cannot receive ascensions at least until September 3)
7. Midnight Holographic (Cannot receive ascension at least until September 3)
So this way even if people submit completed rp requirement forms for ascension they cannot collect all their ponies at once and that they have to wait at least a minimum requirement of time to receive their next one even if they've completed the rp requirements a long time ago. Artists may not even choose to do ascension every month, or even every two months, but having that list there to work from at least how I see it is the fairest way to go about it so that people who's been waiting the longest get it next.
Also making people having to complete their rp requirements before they post their forms keeps people from just posting to make a placeholder for themselves on the first come first serve list and if someone tries to pull a fast on that you can make it a punishable offense.
If this is how we decide to do it leave it so people can only at least get one pegicorn ascension a month instead of two every month, or even increase the waiting amount of time up to two months at least between each ascension that you recieve. Adjust that if you think that's too fast at a later point in time, but it's okay to do some trial and error and update things at a later point in time if you figure out something doesn't work or it needs tweaking.
This puts less stress on the artists because they wont feel obligated to do ascensions every month, and it assures the people who put in the effort to roleplay that they will eventually receive their Alicorn ascension.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:06 pm
Another official suggestion;
I open a thread once a month, or whenever we're ready and have cleared previous list. That thread will be open for two weeks.
Customers can post one ascension, as long as they've completed requirements.
The colorist who did that pegicorn will add them to their list. We will close the thread upon two weeks, and work gradually on ascensions. Once everyone has cleared their list (unless someone has to step back for whatever reason), we'll open another thread when we're ready.
It still is a little close to what makes me uncomfortable, but it seems the raffle system, which was what I felt the most comfortable with, isn't 100% agreeable. Another option is, per colorist, we open slots whenever we're ready for x amount of ascensions. Say I open slots, I offer to do 5 ascensions. That means 5 Pegi's I colored can be entered in. First come first serve. If I do this, I can open slots faster, as it'd only be limited to me, and I can open slots at a pace that keeps me sane and allows me to open slots more often.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:15 pm
Both of those are agreeable to me. Though I think I'd rather lean towards the second option? That ways we can choose to have someone different do the Alicorn art if we want? I mean, many would probably prefer to have the same person color their growths but the option to have another colorist do it isn't a bad idea.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:16 pm
White Trickster Rabbit Both of those are agreeable to me. Though I think I'd rather lean towards the second option? That ways we can choose to have someone different do the Alicorn art if we want? I mean, many would probably prefer to have the same person color their growths but the option to have another colorist do it isn't a bad idea. Both options only allow for the artist who did the Pegi to do the ascension. The shop won't be allowing other colorists to handle Pegi's they haven't colored unless for unique exceptions should they come up.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:19 pm
If you're unhappy with it veto??
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:22 pm
That essentially is what I'm doing when I offer new ideas; trying to find a happy compromise that we all agree on. I don't want to implement a feature that customers dislike, and I want to make sure whatever I DO implement is, for the most part, enjoyable.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:47 pm
Both are agreeable to me, but a suggestion if you go with the second option is that people who won a slot in your last opening can not win the next time your slots are open or cannot win the next two time those slots are open. It heavily favors those who happen to be online around at the time those slots are opened, those slots will be gone almost instantaneously I imagine, and some people have responsibilities like work, kids, and possible have slow internet that there is a likely chance many of those kinds of customers would miss out on the opened slots.
I would far prefer the first suggestion to avoid the problems of the second suggestion even if the sign ups are lowered to only be open for a week. That's still plenty of time for people to sign up because people who have pegicorns who want them ascended should already be on their way to completing the rp requirements. One to two weeks should be enough time to finish those up if they've already had the pegicorn for a month. I think this option will also help keep stress off of the artists because slots wont open again until everyone is ready to do so, and that the artists should have a reasonably long time frame to get the ascensions done and that they should be given no stress by the customers to finish them faster.
I think the first option is wonderful, and the second option agreeable. I also know that no matter what whichever you decide to go with will probably be best and trust that if there are huge problems with either that you'll consider at another time a different way to go about Alicorn ascensions.
Editing. Also thank you for being so patient and working hard to figure out the best compromise. Even if the discussion isn't finished at this point I still really value the time and thought you've put into this.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:50 pm
The first come first serve raffle system advantages people online often with good connections. Maybe if there was a mix between first-come-first-serve and raffle style ascensions?
Also:
[5:49 PM] ıshtadaal: maybe, instead of thinking of it as max X alicorns, it should be max X alicorns per Y ponies owned by Person
[5:50 PM] ıshtadaal: So say it’s 1 alicorn per 10 ponies
[5:50 PM] ıshtadaal: you have 1 pony, your second is an alicorn
[5:50 PM] ıshtadaal: no more until you have 11+ ponies
[5:50 PM] ıshtadaal: it’s tied to the individual
[5:51 PM] ıshtadaal: And with grandfathering
[5:51 PM] ıshtadaal: i’m getting a third alicorn.
[5:51 PM] ıshtadaal: I wouldn’t be able to get another until I have 33 ponies.
[5:53 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: That’s a whole lot of ponies
[5:54 PM] ıshtadaal: That’s the point!
[5:55 PM] ıshtadaal: I’d be required to be REALLY active
[5:55 PM] ıshtadaal: put in LOTS of bribes
[5:55 PM] ıshtadaal: and/or pay a FUDGELOAD to RLC
[5:55 PM] ıshtadaal: in order to get that many ponies
[5:55 PM] ıshtadaal: so I could then in turn get my 4th alicorn.
[5:56 PM] ıshtadaal: ( pegicorns could be counted as non-alicorns, ascensions could be tied to how many ponies you have. )
[6:01 PM] cold-blooded queen: having to pay a ton of money for one would people like me at a disadvatage. i can’t really afford much to begin with, and i’m actually trying to save up for my first.
[6:01 PM] The Sprint Guy: I don’t think I’ll be changing how much they cost
[6:02 PM] The Sprint Guy: <33
[6:02 PM] cold-blooded queen: that’s greatly appreciated <3
[6:04 PM] Bun/Vel: I think what Ish was trying to imply by the “pay a fudgeload to RLC” is buying a whole bunch of non-alicorn ponies via RLC in order to get the 4th alicorn.
[6:06 PM] Bun/Vel: (in ish’s instance)
[6:06 PM] cold-blooded queen: either way... it’s a disadvatage to those who don’t have the money to splurge like that. not saying that buying ponies from yushi isn’t worth while, because it totally is, but yeah
[6:07 PM] Bun/Vel: No believe me, I completely understand your point /broke herself
[6:07 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: I think it was more of a matter to say like
[6:09 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: The only way to get a second alicorn would be lots of breedings, lots of bribes, or lots of rlc the first two are the options for people without lots of cash to burn
[6:09 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: Or so to say
[6:09 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: To be allowed a second alicorn
[6:09 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: And tbh ten ponies isn’t a whole lot
[6:09 PM] Hail and well met my dude/Burro: I think some people have already hit that
[6:12 PM] Bun/Vel: nods
[6:30 PM] Midnightglow18: lol yea
[6:30 PM] Midnightglow18: need more ponies then :stuck_out_tongue:
[6:41 PM] ıshtadaal: The point of what I’m saying
[6:42 PM] ıshtadaal: is that people who are less active
[6:42 PM] ıshtadaal: get fewer alicorns
[6:42 PM] ıshtadaal: You get your first alicorn ‘slot’ at 0 ponies(edited)
[6:42 PM] ıshtadaal: and then your second at 10
[6:42 PM] ıshtadaal: etc.
[6:43 PM] Midnightglow18: That kinda makes sense, except for people who are really busy with work or school. That dosen’t mean they care less about the game.
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: Of course, but they still get an alicorn
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: because your first pony can be an alicorn
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: it’s just if you want
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: 5 alicorns
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: you have to work
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: hard
[6:43 PM] ıshtadaal: to get 5
[6:44 PM] ıshtadaal: so that way I can’t get significantly more alicorns than School Age Suzie
[6:44 PM] ıshtadaal: without putting in Significantly More Effort
[6:44 PM] ıshtadaal: Realistically, without trying too terribly hard, I’ve gotten over 10 ponies already.
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: But my suggestion, given that I’m gonna have 3 alicorns, is gonna put -me-, the RLCer, at a disadvantage to people who can’t pay otherwise
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: and who’ll RP or do other things
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: There’s no -quick cheap and easy- step to skip the wait to the next alicorn
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: unless, say
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: you have 28 ponies before you start getting alicorns
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: then you could feasibly get three at once
[6:45 PM] ıshtadaal: because that’d put you at 31 ponies
[6:46 PM] ıshtadaal: people who are in the shop less often, who don’t/cant participate most of the time, are realistically the people who -should- have the fewest alicorns, over people who support Yushi financially with RLC or support the shop with bribes, activity, and entries into contests.
[6:46 PM] ıshtadaal: This is a way to even the playing field out against people who would p2w
[6:47 PM] ıshtadaal: by making it prohibitively expensive
[6:47 PM] ıshtadaal: to just Buy Out Another Alicorn
[6:47 PM] ıshtadaal: and it’s fairer than Max 5 Forever
[6:47 PM] ıshtadaal: because if someone has 5 dozen ponies, three years down the line
[6:48 PM] ıshtadaal: their love and dedication to the shop should be rewarded
[6:48 PM] ıshtadaal: -but- in a way that a newbie who wants to work their tail off and try to catch up can manage.
[6:48 PM] ıshtadaal: It keeps the alicorns rare by imposing a ratio
[6:48 PM] ıshtadaal: But since it’s a PLAYER to PLAYER ratio
[6:48 PM] ıshtadaal: me having too many alicorns (until I balance out my herd)
[6:49 PM] ıshtadaal: is not going to make it so Suzie Schoolwork can’t get ANY alicorns at all.
[6:49 PM] ıshtadaal: because her own personal limits are just that– personal!
[6:49 PM] ıshtadaal: And 1:10 is really not a bad ratio at all.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:57 pm
I just finished what you said in discord Ish and this is definitely something I can get behind. It makes sense to me that Alicorns rarity should represented in the ratio to non Alicorn ponies because they are supposed to be the rarest race of all. I don't know how this would or should affect Pegicorns because those will have to happen naturally through breeding. Maybe you can't ascend them until you meet that ratio? Or maybe because ascensions are already limited through roleplay that Alicorns through ascensions are exempt from that rule, and that Alicorns through ascention themselves do not count towards your 1:10 Alicorn to other raced ponies.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:01 pm
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what the second option was saying! lol In which case, either still works for me and I don't have a preference. Also I rather like Ish's idea about limiting how many alicorns you can have in reference to how many ponies one owns.
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