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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:31 am
I am sorry I didn't make it back as soon as i wanted last night... I ended up with another 'attack'...
I am under the influence of a double dose of pain meds now, so if this comes out a bit garbled, I will clarify it when my head is clear...
Anyway...
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:49 pm
Let me just start off saying that I do not take the Bible as the literal, God breathed book that so many hold it to be. I understand that it is inspired by God, and it holds the keys that we need to have a better understanding of Him. Yet I also understand that it was men who penned it, and copied it, , and compiled it, and decompiled it, and recompiled it, and translated it, and re-translated it, and interprets it, and reinterprets it, and so forth and so on. It is not a history book, although it has some remarkable examples of historical reference within it. It is a religious book, and as such, it is meant to stimulate our spiritual self, not-so-much our physical.
So... this will be a long post... I have nothing better to do today anyway.
I'll start with Gjornia, and work my way back. LOLGjornia X ...I think God created "evil" in the sense of punishment for the unrighteous, which from their perspective is evil. I mean Adam and Eve were deeply hurt being not only thrown out of Eden but their lives lowered to--ugh--human existence. The Egyptians I'm certain thought God evil as he killed their cattle and smited their children en mass. Those caught up in the Great Flood (which I am aware we can debate the exact time and place of) I'm certain found God "evil". Or the numerous kingdoms God sent whole armies to destroy. The promises or privileges revoked to "chosen" persons who failed to do as expected. The entire book of Revelations! I don't find a lake of fire particularly inviting. So yeah, God created evil, but it's a necessary evil... Eltanin At the risk of sounding faithless, many of these OT stories, to me, equate God to an angry child destroying his playthings because they don't do what he wants them to... or if we want to stay with the father analogy, he would be a drunken one, who gets so angry that he loses the desire to restrain himself when his kids don't do as he says, and he beats them to a bloody pulp...
Many of the OT stories tend to come across as God being vindictive and downright hateful to anyone going against His Will. I personally believe that flavor in those stories is a product of men retelling those stories. I see God in the NT as loving and nurturing, and I believe that God is, was, and will always be the same, but for that to be the case, He would have to be loving and nurturing in the OT.
Everyone is so quick to blame God, or blame 'Satan', for the things we dislike, or find unfair, or cause us pain... What about consequence, why do Christians forget that every action causes a reaction. It is the natural course of things.
I can tell my daughter not to touch the stove, it's hot. Yet one day, inevitably, she touches the hot stove. She disobeyed me, yet do I punish her? No, I allow the consequence of her action to be the punishment, and I am there to do what I can to comfort her.
I don't believe that everything is a punishment from God when something undesirable happens after I do something He told me not to do. Sometimes it is just a consequence of my actions. But you know what? He is always there to comfort me if I reach out to Him after I have suffered for my action, even if I had disobeyed.
I believe many of the stories that are told describing the horrific retributions of God against those that anger Him are not told in the right spirit. I think many times when it is said ,'God was angry, so He had to destroy everyone, because they sinned,' we really should have given credit to the consequences of disobedience, not credit to God being hard and vindictive. I especially believe this true because of the damage it causes when unbelievers remember how horrible God is and can not bring themselves to believe our witness of a loving God because of the stories they have heard from the OT.
As to God sending whole armies to destroy cities and nations, I also believe there is error in the retelling. I believed God blessed certain those who believed on Him, but the recounts of the stories are written by man, and men love to make it sound like they are especially special when they win, and they like to sound like if they lose, it wasn't through physical fault of their own... I also know that God does bless those who have faith in Him, and he withholds blessing from those who do not. That right there is enough for one nation to preside over another in battle, without God ordering genocide...
As for the times that it is said God ordered a total genocide, I don't believe that either, another error in the retelling... I believe God may have given an "if this then that," scenario, and it was interpreted by man that it was meant as a command, because the "then that" part was undesirable to them.Eltanin Gjornia X Adam and Eve existed in blissful ignorance for however many days, weeks, or years before the Fall. And God probably created them ignorant to protect them, and only later realized that He did more harm than good. In their ignorance they knew not pain or fear or hatred or wrath. Everything was given to them and they didn't have to do anything. They were in a since spoiled and took the gifts God gave them for granted... WOW! You imply God made a mistake!... Gjornia When He exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, he was acting in His nature of scolding his children--as a heavenly father he give us punishments too, but not to harm or degrade us, but because He expects great things and does not want to see us inhibiting ourselves. I by no means ever thought God made a mistake in the Book of Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. I think you misunderstood me. Quote: ...and only later realized that He did more harm than good... Gjornia I will admit that your words did hurt when you accused me of implying that God made a mistake.
Personally, I don't believe God makes mistakes either, though, but when we read the Bible through a literal filter, it is almost impossible to prove. That is one of the reasons I cannot take the Bible literally literal.Gjornia Based on Scripture, God had no expectation that Satan would have been successful in tempting his children, well because they were His children and for however long they had lived in the Garden with Him they came to know Him. And here, a stranger appears, and they heed his word over the Lord's Eltanin Yet, for those of us who frequent this thread who believe God doesn't make mistakes... What if the ignorance wasn't a mistake? What if it was just the natural course, that a new and intelligent life needs a time to be nurtured before it is sent out on its merry way? All of us were born ignorant, all of us needed every one of our needs and wants provided for us at one point. My children weren't given the opportunity to make their own decisions until I was ready to allow them to. I still deliberately keep them from doing things I don't feel they are ready to do. Other things that they are going to have to learn sooner or later, I allow them to decide when they feel ready to do them. Some of those things I place warnings with that are pretty much, "once you do this, there is no going back" ... Do you see where I am going with this? Maybe Adam and Eve weren't spoiled, maybe they were humanity as an infant. Maybe, humanity needed a time when God nursed it. Maybe, once that infant learned to tottle, God decided it was time for them to learn to what life was like outside its nursery, so he gave it a choice on when it was ready to step outside...
I believe when it was 'time' that humanity could test out its limited independence, then a tempter was placed at the tree, as a continual reminder that it was there. This goes back to the statement that angels and demons must fulfill the Will of God no matter what attitude they have towards Him, as they do not have free will...
God told Adam and Eve the consequences of eating the fruit of knowledge, death, but I think it was a consequence He intended for us to experience. Some consequences are not good or bad, they just are, and I think death is one of them. I have come to believe death is the vehicle by which we can be with God quite literally, in a way in which even Adam and Eve were not with Him, because God visited them in the garden, but through death, we will be with God in Heaven.
My son is 9 now, he needs me less than he used to. This is healthy, although depressing at times. When he was born, I had to do everything for him. Once he started trying to do things on his own, I stifled his independence, for his safety, but as he got older, I started letting him do more things on his own, even some things which he might get hurt because he needed to learn it anyway. One day, he will need me even less than he does now, and one day, the only reason he will continue a relationship with me is because he wants to, and because he loves me. We will be on equal standing, and on that day, I know that I have done my job as a parent, and I will be proud, and satisfied. He will respect me and revere me as his parent, and still defer to me, and that will make me all the happier, because in that he shows his love for me. I will know that he loves me because he wants to, not because he needs me for something, and on that day, I know my love over all of these years, even the tough kind, was worth it and has been repaid.
Yet, even now, when he talks about growing up, I remind him of the things that aren't so fun about being grown up. I tell him about bills, and making tough choices, and how you have to fend for yourself. That doesn't mean I never want him to be grown up, I just want to remind him that right now isn't so bad, and that there is no going back to childhood once you are grown.Gjornia I do not however retract the end of my statement in thinking that Adam and Eve did not take for granted their gift of existing beside God... Gjornia ...As Christians that's the very thing we strive for, the core of our belief is to one day be with Him for eternity... Gjornia ...And what makes us want it more is the reality that not all of humanity will receive such a gift. Gjornia I'm simply rationalizing, of course when I characterized Adam and Eve in my mind as spoiled because they were human, nonetheless, and can succumb to such a nature as Eve succumbed to temptation. Though then they were sinless they were not infallible. Gjornia The angels did have a choice. If they did not then they could never fall from grace. Yet, they did. And even while men lived the angels fell still creating Nephilim and Goliath. Angels then are fallible, as the Bible tells that only God and Christ are perfect, therefore we can assume that even angels can commit sin. To think angels are perfect...is silly. Gjornia But God does at some point destroy people. Christ himself said 'Do not fear those who can destroy the body but fear God who can destroy the body and soul in hell'. Gjornia So, God does not destroy people in this life on this earth. We destroy ourselves "for the wages of sin is death". If someone is tormented by demons on this earth it is because they either refused God or temporarily lost sight of Him, and finding Him only leads to a more fulfilling life on this earth and an everlastinf life on the next.
I have learned through experience though, that the consequences play a larger part in our misery here on earth than demons. Many people who are very close to God, and have not lost sight become tormented by demons, and many people who never believed in God at all are never afflicted by demons at all. Since we can open ourselves up to the influence of demons, many times, they are just a consequence. At other times, God allows them to attack us to test us.
Look at Job, he was upright in all of his ways, yet God allowed an adversary to go against him and make him miserable. Yet, in the end Job was blessed because of it. Gjornia ...I do not believe the"natural" course is a life of sin...
Yet, having explained all of that, I do want to clarify that I do believe there were times that God did do more than just passive justice through consequences. I believe that He did punish people at times, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, and a few others, but He always allowed ample warning, and offered a way out, just as a good parent does for their children. I hardly believe that qualifies the tile of "Destroyer" to be a forefront title though.
I still believe that the consequences incurred for many actions described in the OT were sufficient enough to cause much suffering, without God having to destroy anything.
...and you can argue that it is God Who set the boundaries for such consequences, and thus accrues the title passively, but yet He, having set such boundaries, gave humanity fair warning what would happen. Thus, it puts the ball of fault back into our court.
Now, I never ever wanted to hurt anyone with what I have said, and Kilo is right, at times I was playing 'devil's advocate', but I do want to encourage some out-of-the-box thinking. I feel Christianity itself has become complacent in the feeling that the translations and interpretations we have now are understood, and have been for centuries. The day humanity stops learning is the day we die, and I feel that way about religions too. Yet the only way to continue learning is to challenge what we know, and believe.
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:33 pm
So it's made pretty clear throughout the Bible that God experiences anger, joy, and love.
Some people (even myself at times) wonder if God did all these massively good and seemingly terrible things in the past, why doesn't he do so now?
Well, it's a funny thing. I asked myself that again today, and this is the first thing that came to mind.
Having so many children you love and cherish, and having them anger you so. You lay down the law and still they disobey. An even greater punishment you give them. But after all is said and done, God is sad because of what had to be done. So it seems justice in the way that things are, that we make up our pious or sinful nature, and pay the price by order of natural retribution. Actually, I think today was the first day the concept of Jesus made any sense at all to me.
Before, it seems and feels like God was getting terribly sad over what he had to keep doing, and the cycle was, for lack of a better term, breaking his heart. And in the new testament with Jesus, it seems the new law, inclusive of none shall go to the father but through me, that the path of justice was laid. People would from then on bring upon themselves their own fate, without God having to punish them. They would either come through Jesus to him, or they would rebuke the love offered to them, and walk away on a path that leads to the only place that exists away from God. It seemed like it still makes God sad when people do that, but less than having to destroy his own children for their ways. And then they have the entirety of their lives to make up for it and change their ways.
Is this logic?
Too much coffee after midnight?
Or maybe a half-wit step towards understanding?
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:50 pm
Splendid Sailor Venus Is this logic? Too much coffee after midnight? Or maybe a half-wit step towards understanding? Yes Maybe and probably significantly more than a half-wit understanding...
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:56 pm
I know that God can see the past, present, and future, but there are also cases in the Bible where God had one plan in mind for someone, that person does something against what God initially envision, and God modified his plans as necessary. Usually there's a large time leap in our time between the first attempt and second attempt. But people have free will, which means that yeah God wants all of us to follow Him, but he knows we can choose or not. But now we're treading the realm of predestination vs. non predestination, which is another argument in itself.
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:05 pm
In the Book of Revelations God is the Destroyer of sin and sinners, but only at that point. So, no, it is not a forefront title for God, but it is a title nonetheless and one that needs acknowledgment. He does destroy at some point. Not now in this life, but he does do it. No one here has to worry because we will see his act as glory, as healing the world by removing all pain from it, as the wiping of every tear from our eyes. That's how we will see it and so we will not object. But there will be those on the other end who will experience the more deleterious aspect (say, maybe hitler and nihilists, j/k, though they were messed up people). But I acknowledge God as a destroyer because he i a creator. I know him as the end because I know he's the beginning. He is the staff and the rod. Every title God has is a pair. He is never one thing without being the other.
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:14 pm
Quote: My belief here is that God wanted us to use our free will, but we couldn't do that until we made a choice. We really couldn't make a choice until we understood consequences though. He put the tree of knowledge there for us, but kept us from it until we were "old enough". We needed time to establish a relationship with Him, before we were set out on our own, so that way we would not forget Him, and we would be able to continue a relationship as we grew... Without humanity's initial time in the garden, I doubt we would have survived. I believe when it was 'time' that humanity could test out its limited independence, then a tempter was placed at the tree, as a continual reminder that it was there. This goes back to the statement that angels and demons must fulfill the Will of God no matter what attitude they have towards Him, as they do not have free will... God told Adam and Eve the consequences of eating the fruit of knowledge, death, but I think it was a consequence He intended for us to experience. Some consequences are not good or bad, they just are, and I think death is one of them. I have come to believe death is the vehicle by which we can be with God quite literally, in a way in which even Adam and Eve were not with Him, because God visited them in the garden, but through death, we will be with God in Heaven. I can respect that. I think Jesus says something about being like children who need milk (young or weak in our faith) and stressing about some becoming stronger and more experienced in our faith to help the rest. (Perhaps, he was referring to religious leaders and their responsibility). You can legitimately make the argument that perhaps the Adam & Eve thing was in God's plan. (Or it was unexpected and He was uncertain as to how to fix it which is why some people view God as stern in the OT and then loving in the NT--he was trying out methods of repairing and reguiding his children to Him). Either way, it will be one of the first things I ask after I die. :p
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:21 pm
Quote: ... that is the difference between humanity and angels and the definition of free will. This is also why I believe Christianity gives too much credit to demons, and thus strengthens the perceived power of evil, and weakens and demoralized people's confidence of their own God-bestowed abilities. Perception is the leading factor of who holds the power, and humanity has given too much power to evil. The perception of demons, their existence and nature is another argument. And the propagation, misunderstanding, and social culture surrounding it is something deserving its own forum, and truly beyond my abilities since I'm not a scholar confused Also, I would have to change my personal definition of evil in order to speak on it :p So, i won't whee
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:24 pm
Quote: ... that is the difference between humanity and angels and the definition of free will. This is also why I believe Christianity gives too much credit to demons, and thus strengthens the perceived power of evil, and weakens and demoralized people's confidence of their own God-bestowed abilities. Perception is the leading factor of who holds the power, and humanity has given too much power to evil. The perception of demons, their existence and nature is another argument. And the propagation, misunderstanding, and social culture surrounding it is something deserving its own forum, and truly beyond my abilities since I'm not a scholar confused Also, I would have to change my personal definition of evil in order to speak on it :p So, i won't whee
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:02 pm
Quote: Here is pretty much where I stood in belief 15 years ago, and it has evolved to what I believe today. Yes, the consequences of sin is death, and I felt that torment from demons was the natural default of losing sight of God. I have learned through experience though, that the consequences play a larger part in our misery here on earth than demons. Many people who are very close to God, and have not lost sight become tormented by demons, and many people who never believed in God at all are never afflicted by demons at all. Since we can open ourselves up to the influence of demons, many times, they are just a consequence. At other times, God allows them to attack us to test us. Look at Job, he was upright in all of his ways, yet God allowed an adversary to go against him and make him miserable. Yet, in the end Job was blessed because of it. God doe test our faith and will place before us the very thing we seek to avoid, but He only does so when he knows that we can overcome it. It's more to build our faith in him. I think there exists a special prayer for when God's challenges are too much, but hey you can just be upfront, too. Demons and their influence are things that God does not inherently want us subjected to, things we can not overcome on our own. I think of substance addiction, depression, anger issues, etc. Some things we bring upon ourselves like addictions, but others are not--like depression, chronic illnesses (which they can be caused by demons if Jesus healed an epileptic by banishing one, I guess). The consequences of drinking too much, which is a sin is foolish behavior, bad choices one night, and an even worst hangover. The "death" that occurs is more to one's dignity than anything else. But alcoholism is on another level because the individual is compensating for something lacking elsewhere. Usually things that God equally stand for such as friendship, happiness, worth, grace, but can be fulfilled by people who are strong with these traits. But because such a strong power can not be overcome on one's own and needs either God or someone with God's traits to intervene, I see it as the influence of a demon. The Hollywood bigwigs sensationalizes such things, f course, as horned creatures and such, but usually we don't see it coming. I don't think we're supposed to since we'd run if we did. Anywho, I still believe people lay themselves open to demons when they turn from God, because demons stand for the lies and sin they seek anyway. So you call it consequence, I call it demonic, but the effect on the individ. is the same.
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:07 pm
Quote: Gjornia Wrote: ...And what makes us want it more is the reality that not all of humanity will receive such a gift. Honestly, the one thing that makes me question and at times I had rejected my religion was the fact that Christians believe that they are the only ones that God will extend eternity to. Yet, over the years, I have had revelations which have taught me that is not my place to worry about others' place after death... Regardless of which faith one follows, not all of humanity that is 100% of all humanity extending from past to the unforeseeable future, will end up in heaven, even in a numbers game. But this is again a matter of free will and divine intervention, and a you said really between the individ. and God. (I know, we each should be worried about if our names are in the Book of Life, what sins we have left open from impunity to worry about someone else).
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:18 pm
Splendid Sailor Venus So it's made pretty clear throughout the Bible that God experiences anger, joy, and love. Some people (even myself at times) wonder if God did all these massively good and seemingly terrible things in the past, why doesn't he do so now? Well, it's a funny thing. I asked myself that again today, and this is the first thing that came to mind. Having so many children you love and cherish, and having them anger you so. You lay down the law and still they disobey. An even greater punishment you give them. But after all is said and done, God is sad because of what had to be done. So it seems justice in the way that things are, that we make up our pious or sinful nature, and pay the price by order of natural retribution. Actually, I think today was the first day the concept of Jesus made any sense at all to me. Before, it seems and feels like God was getting terribly sad over what he had to keep doing, and the cycle was, for lack of a better term, breaking his heart. And in the new testament with Jesus, it seems the new law, inclusive of none shall go to the father but through me, that the path of justice was laid. People would from then on bring upon themselves their own fate, without God having to punish them. They would either come through Jesus to him, or they would rebuke the love offered to them, and walk away on a path that leads to the only place that exists away from God. It seemed like it still makes God sad when people do that, but less than having to destroy his own children for their ways. And then they have the entirety of their lives to make up for it and change their ways. Is this logic? Too much coffee after midnight? Or maybe a half-wit step towards understanding? I can only imagine the amount of damage control He had to do. If Adam and Eve were the only ones aware of the true God, indeed, the continuation of the knowledge of his presence lied with them. Just a few to guide so many....after all this God will certainly rest from a job well done.
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:33 pm
I read about half of the responses but I was in a rush and will probably read the rest later but just thought I would respond.
I'm only 14 and go to church against my will. My experience of church has been destroyed and though I did used to like it now I dislike my whole situation with church. Mostly that reason is because it's a small church where the adults act like children and spend more time bickering then teaching the children anything.
But from early experiences is where I got rooted in the Lord, even though very little knowledge was given to me. The only thing that keeps me a christian is I know what it feels like to be saved. I felt like I was on a cloud, I felt pure, I felt holy. Someone says I was high but maybe I was high in the Lord. Other than that scriptures and such have been unclear or contradiction to me...
In the bible it says God created all things and it was good. I agree with one person who says things that God created have been used to evil, as in sex. Which is the first example that pops in my mind. I look around at the world and see all the things that humans created themselves because they took sex out of concept. Lawyers, adoptions, custody of children, abortion . Things that if people waited until marraige to have sex would not even exist. Another thing is death. Now there's a whole lot more ways to die than just 'natural causes' . Things like murder, suicide, homocide are just absurd to me.
I think alot about the universe and the opposition of what scientists say about how the world was created and what the bible says. I think about how life as we know it is a world created by someone else and it starts to seem unreal, because when you think about it our world is four-cornered into the things the God created. But yet there is evil. I'm not really here for a debate, more just of my thoughts about it.
If some things of life are so out of our reach and out of our way of thinking, too great for our brain to think of, how come evil isnt one of those things. How come the world isn't perfect and we don't know that evil exists. But while I'm typing this I wonder, if theres a world where evil doesn't exist then that means there would be no such thing as good since evil is the opposition to it. And I conclude my thoughts by saying I think God did create evil. Maybe he created Good and Evil to give us a c h o i c e.
And i'm starting to confuse myself lol. Please excuse my young age and fact that I'm just going on what I think and believe. Can someone please reply and give me their own thoughts as to what I said and if they think any of it made sense. This thread really does have me thinking and I'll post more later.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:26 am
MurrieGee Maybe he created Good and Evil to give us a c h o i c e. SWEET!!! rofl This is probably the simplest way EVAR to say what I was thinking! cool Leave it to me to make things complicated. sweatdrop Thanks for joining MurrieGee! heart
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:13 am
Eltanin Sadachbia MurrieGee Maybe he created Good and Evil to give us a c h o i c e. SWEET!!! rofl This is probably the simplest way EVAR to say what I was thinking! cool Leave it to me to make things complicated. sweatdrop Thanks for joining MurrieGee! heart Partially related to this it reminded me of this quote from Puella Magi Kyouko: "If you are so caught up with making him yours, I've got an even better idea. Take that magic you just got, and... March right in, and smash his hands and legs until he can never use them again. Make him completely helpless. Then he'll be completely yours. His heart and his body." Love doesn't exist if there is no choice.
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