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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:06 pm
I just want to be on the same track here...
Are we REALLY trying to see who, by religion, was hurt more because of 9/11.
That's sad.
There should be no thought that everyone who was related to someone who died in 9/11 was effected terribly and I would be surprised if anyone object and say who was hurt more. Numbers of deaths don't really effect who is hurt more.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:31 pm
Chieftain Twilight i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality. oh... I just can't stop laughing after reading this XD we shouldn't hate eachother based on religion... we should hate eachother based on nationality! it doesn't mater if you're white, black christian or muslum... so long as you're not french XD ok... back to seriousness. should the muslums have the right to build a mosque uncomfortably close to ground zero? yes. the should. do they? no. because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. brainnsoup It's not an exaggeration. If anything, it's an understatement. This whole issue is making it apparent that even still being a Muslim is a crime in this country. We preach religious freedom and tolerance, but when it comes time to put it in practice, we make it clear that Muslims make us uncomfortable. And it is plain rude of them to practice their religion. How dare they have practice their non-Christian offensive religion in America, a Christian "free" country? Don't they know that their religion is all about murder? What's that, it teaches against murder? Well, it's probably in there somewhere... And I think you're missing my point. You shouldn't have to hide your religion. No matter what misguided people have done in the name of your religion, it doesn't justify denying you the right to practice your religion. You can't set one standard for Christianity and a different for Islam just because you're a Christian or because Islam makes you uncomfortable. the problem is... those misguided people did what they did purely to expand their religion. read Hamas' charter, and you'll see the cause for just about anyone lumping them all together- technically, they're right. technically, they aren't twisting the words of the Koran to suit thier needs, the muslums who aren't them are.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:25 pm
Emet_Paladin of Truth Chieftain Twilight i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality. oh... I just can't stop laughing after reading this XD we shouldn't hate eachother based on religion... we should hate eachother based on nationality! it doesn't mater if you're white, black christian or muslum... so long as you're not french XD ok... back to seriousness. should the muslums have the right to build a mosque uncomfortably close to ground zero? yes. the should. do they? no. because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana.
There may be. There may not be.
What I am arguing is that it is wrong to deny people the right of religious freedom. And, of course, anyone who would respond violently to that freedom is also wrong.Emet_Paladin of Truth brainnsoup It's not an exaggeration. If anything, it's an understatement. This whole issue is making it apparent that even still being a Muslim is a crime in this country. We preach religious freedom and tolerance, but when it comes time to put it in practice, we make it clear that Muslims make us uncomfortable. And it is plain rude of them to practice their religion. How dare they have practice their non-Christian offensive religion in America, a Christian "free" country? Don't they know that their religion is all about murder? What's that, it teaches against murder? Well, it's probably in there somewhere... And I think you're missing my point. You shouldn't have to hide your religion. No matter what misguided people have done in the name of your religion, it doesn't justify denying you the right to practice your religion. You can't set one standard for Christianity and a different for Islam just because you're a Christian or because Islam makes you uncomfortable. the problem is... those misguided people did what they did purely to expand their religion. read Hamas' charter, and you'll see the cause for just about anyone lumping them all together- technically, they're right. technically, they aren't twisting the words of the Koran to suit thier needs, the muslums who aren't them are.
However, Islam teaches that you shouldn't instigate fights.
It also teaches religious tolerance and freedom.
Does that mean that Islam as a whole has never spread by force? No. Is no other major religion guilty of turning its back on its own ideals? No.
Murder- killing innocents- is also a pretty clear no-no in Islam. This is why I say that extremist terrorists had to twist Islam's teachings to believe that what they were doing was righteous.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:45 pm
I believe they have a right to build there. But that doesn't mean I like it.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:48 pm
Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:56 pm
divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:58 pm
Emet_Paladin of Truth Chieftain Twilight i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality. oh... I just can't stop laughing after reading this XD we shouldn't hate eachother based on religion... we should hate eachother based on nationality! it doesn't mater if you're white, black christian or muslum... so long as you're not french XD ok... back to seriousness. should the muslums have the right to build a mosque uncomfortably close to ground zero? yes. the should. do they? no. because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. brainnsoup It's not an exaggeration. If anything, it's an understatement. This whole issue is making it apparent that even still being a Muslim is a crime in this country. We preach religious freedom and tolerance, but when it comes time to put it in practice, we make it clear that Muslims make us uncomfortable. And it is plain rude of them to practice their religion. How dare they have practice their non-Christian offensive religion in America, a Christian "free" country? Don't they know that their religion is all about murder? What's that, it teaches against murder? Well, it's probably in there somewhere... And I think you're missing my point. You shouldn't have to hide your religion. No matter what misguided people have done in the name of your religion, it doesn't justify denying you the right to practice your religion. You can't set one standard for Christianity and a different for Islam just because you're a Christian or because Islam makes you uncomfortable. the problem is... those misguided people did what they did purely to expand their religion. read Hamas' charter, and you'll see the cause for just about anyone lumping them all together- technically, they're right. technically, they aren't twisting the words of the Koran to suit thier needs, the muslums who aren't them are. they HAVE the Right, they're just being blocked from excericising that Right by other people. and it's unconstitutional, and corrupt that that is teh case.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:21 am
Captain_Shinzo I just want to be on the same track here...
Are we REALLY trying to see who, by religion, was hurt more because of 9/11.
That's sad.
There should be no thought that everyone who was related to someone who died in 9/11 was effected terribly and I would be surprised if anyone object and say who was hurt more. Numbers of deaths don't really effect who is hurt more. My last post on page 2 (which was ignored) was not debating who was hurt more. I was stating that EVERYONE had victims on 9/11, including Muslims in the towers and innocent passengers on the plane. I also included a picture of where the Mosque is vs. the towers remains.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:23 am
Emet_Paladin of Truth because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. Okay, because you said this, you lose ANY credit to having a brain. Leave now.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:56 pm
Call Me Apple Captain_Shinzo I just want to be on the same track here...
Are we REALLY trying to see who, by religion, was hurt more because of 9/11.
That's sad.
There should be no thought that everyone who was related to someone who died in 9/11 was effected terribly and I would be surprised if anyone object and say who was hurt more. Numbers of deaths don't really effect who is hurt more. My last post on page 2 (which was ignored) was not debating who was hurt more. I was stating that EVERYONE had victims on 9/11, including Muslims in the towers and innocent passengers on the plane. I also included a picture of where the Mosque is vs. the towers remains.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:39 pm
Call Me Apple Emet_Paladin of Truth because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. Okay, because you said this, you lose ANY credit to having a brain. Leave now. Indeed.. plus I really don't understand what that had to do with anything.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:52 pm
merely attempting to put this into perspective without the use of religion
you are going to a place where, frankly, people hate you, and you are attempting to build a major community focal point there.
even if you go to court over it (and in court you would win) would you want to?
they should have the right to build that mosque. we, as a society should be advanced enough to accept others.
are we? no. that's sad, but that's also true.
again, read hamas' charter- you'll see exactly where those who say there is no difference are coming from.
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:59 am
Bharatiyaa_ larki Call Me Apple Emet_Paladin of Truth because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. Okay, because you said this, you lose ANY credit to having a brain. Leave now. Indeed.. plus I really don't understand what that had to do with anything. hey now, you two, he's got a point actually. o_O; and he doesn't need to leave just cause he feels this way about it. look, in a way, he's pretty close to the mark. he's over-exaggerating the level of racism of the state of Louisianna (because come on, not everywhere there is gonna shoot black people... just alot of people here), but it definitely illustrates a very true sentiment about the Mosque. the people of New York are afraid, and they won't be happy to see that building there. he's not spewing forthe hatred against Islam, he's saying the same thing i am. any thoughts that these Muslims had that this building would help bring americans together across religious lines was naive, and this placement was not at all a smart idea. it hurts their own cause. they had intentions of making peace with people who don't want peace. and the way they thought they could do it is by doing something that they should have realized would only aggrivate people's emotions. so please, both of you, chill out. o_O;
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:28 am
I don't see what the big deal is. If Christians were building a Church, I imagine pretty much NO ONE would care.
The fact that the terrorists were Muslims should not at all reflect on all Muslims or affect their right to build Mosques wherever they want to.
Why would you want to stop a whole religion from building a house of worship just because of the actions of a few of its members?
Should we stop building Churches in Germany, then? The Nazis were Christians.
(I know it's not a perfect comparison but I think it's pretty close to one.)
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:51 pm
Lumanny the Space Jew I don't see what the big deal is. If Christians were building a Church, I imagine pretty much NO ONE would care. The fact that the terrorists were Muslims should not at all reflect on all Muslims or affect their right to build Mosques wherever they want to. Why would you want to stop a whole religion from building a house of worship just because of the actions of a few of its members? Should we stop building Churches in Germany, then? The Nazis were Christians. (I know it's not a perfect comparison but I think it's pretty close to one.) is it realy so hard to imagine how these yankies feel? yeh, their wrong. we all know that. but we can sympathize with them can't we? it's true that that Mosque won't help at all. these Muslims want non-Muslims to learn about Islam and learn not to be afraid. but it takes effort on both sides. no matter how much effort the Muslims put into it, those who are afraid won't learn anything if they don't want to learn. building this Mosque there is confrontational to the emotions, fears, and other feelings of the christians. it doesn't help to bridge anything.
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