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 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:26 am
Zurine Ellavemia This situation is a classic example of the preconceived notions people have about veg*ns and those we assume veg*ans have about omnis. I think what actually happened is that somewhere someone read emotion into some words that wasn't actually there or they took something too personally. No. Am I not allowed to state that I believe veganism is a destructive diet? I think a pesca- or an ovo- vegetarian has a slightly higher advantage. Was it this guild I saw a thread that tried to compare a human to a lion or a turtle, and someone who obviously thought the thread creator was a ditz asked them if they felt closely related to a omnivore, like a chimpanzee. If you really spent time into the whole environmental issue, you should realize that your best bet to being a healthier person, and a sustainable person is to buy local. If you don't like the food market in your area, move. I'm tired of hearing people say they can't do this. They can't just move, or they can't start buying local foods. The change you want to see in the world should start with you. I ditched Connecticut, where I had a job and my family and pets and my friends so that I could be the change that I wanted to see in others. Maybe gaiaonline.com isn't the place to try and impress upon people that sustainability can be a big risk factor. I understand what you're saying about eating locally! And when I leave the state(for college) I plan to live in a city-is area. That way I can walk everywhere rather than drive. :/ I might still need a car to get to work and such up there(If i find a job in my field up there) but I plan to drive as little as possible. Heck, I'm trying to get my miles up on my bike as it is. razz Buying local is most definitely the most eco-friendly way to eat, but I still don't agree with exploitation or having my food slaughtered for me. But I load up on local fruits and veggies when spring/summer comes up because that's when all the local farmer's markets come up.. Another way to save on resources is to go to fleamarkets/yardsales. Yardsales tend to use up more fuel because they are so spread apart, but if you find say a community yardsale, you could bike through and buy used goodies! I got myself a 128MB flash drive earlier this summer! smile I use it for school stuff since it IS tiny, but hey, it works! biggrin I recommend getting a basket for your bicycle if you plan to do this xD (and quite possibly a ton of chains, in bad parts of town, if your bike is chained up, your tires could be stolen! chain your tires, basked and frame together! :3 )
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:00 pm
the reason i dont take most vegans seriously - they dont have a good response when i ask about eating eggs from a beloved pet flock of hens with no c**k to fertilize
that and very few can tell me how to be veg*an while avoiding soy. i know how to but they usually dont.
i personally only eat meat on special occasions but i luves me some honey/goat milk and i use eggs in my baking, and what kind of mama witch doesnt have a platter of cookies next to her tarot deck when having guests?
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:12 pm
I think that a lot of vegans are practical vegans. Maybe they don't think it'd be that awful to raise your own egg hens. In reality, that is not the case, however, and most chickens probably aren't treated quite so well.
I'm an idealist lacto-ovo vegetarian, though. I don't eat that much soy, as I really try to avoid highly pre-processed foods.
When I say idealist, I mean, I live now how I would under more ideal circumstance. I need b-12.
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:46 am
Strega Mama the reason i dont take most vegans seriously - they dont have a good response when i ask about eating eggs from a beloved pet flock of hens with no c**k to fertilize that and very few can tell me how to be veg*an while avoiding soy. i know how to but they usually dont. i personally only eat meat on special occasions but i luves me some honey/goat milk and i use eggs in my baking, and what kind of mama witch doesnt have a platter of cookies next to her tarot deck when having guests? Perhaps my response would be a bit more logical. And this is coming from the heart. My grandparents actually raises chickens. They take good care of them, both the "layers" and the ones they plan to kill to eat. They are all very active chickens, and live outside and are able to socialize with each other. The reason I don't eat them or their eggs is because, personally, I feel it is still a form of exploitation. Its along the lines of "If you rescue them, and you take the eggs they lay to be eaten(by yourself or other humans), its implying that that is that chicken's ONLY purpose is to serve you with eggs." Its still exploitation, IMO. But, even through I don't eat the eggs from their "layers"(god I hate that word), my family has an obsession with them... Of course, back when I was just a vegetarian, I was afraid to even use a couple in cooking anyway because of my dad getting all pissey and yelling at me for eating "his" eggs... >_> Anyway, if there were no omnis or vegetarians to eat said eggs, I don't have much experience with raising birds, I'd have to observe them and see what they do with the eggs anyway. If they just leave them to rot for a couple days, I'd just collect them and compost them. If they want to brood, it's not worth getting pecked to death and scratched up over(when i was about 10, I had to always collect eggs... and it was not fun)
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:11 am
Those chickens have co-evolved,d though, and who's to say that they aren't exploiting your grandparents for shelter and ensured progeny?(One out of however many, which starts the next generation, gets to pass down their genes.)
I still can't honestly stomach the idea of eating another living thing, though, but co-operating seems co-beneficial.
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:01 pm
If you look at it that way, it could seem that way. But they wern't chickens that appeared on their doorsteps magically or because the chicken wanted to move in. My grandparents bought them to lay eggs for them(or be food).
So to buy an animal and breed it to serve a purpose for you... :/
Of course, before it gets all crazy, yes, I DO support seeing eye dogs, but ones that are rescue animals(not ones bred specifically to be seeing eye dogs)
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:33 pm
Sakakikala If you look at it that way, it could seem that way. But they wern't chickens that appeared on their doorsteps magically or because the chicken wanted to move in. My grandparents bought them to lay eggs for them(or be food). So to buy an animal and breed it to serve a purpose for you... :/ Of course, before it gets all crazy, yes, I DO support seeing eye dogs, but ones that are rescue animals(not ones bred specifically to be seeing eye dogs) that makes sense, thank you for answering that. next question - what if they are pets first and eggs are just a happy bonus?
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:03 pm
where do's eating fish parts that regenerate come into play on this???
like theres crabs and stuff that can do this and it doenst kill them to do it. in fact some can regrow within a day or 2
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:09 am
Strega Mama that makes sense, thank you for answering that. next question - what if they are pets first and eggs are just a happy bonus? Well the only way I could agree to them being pets(like any other) would be if they are rescues(as in saved from factory farms, we used to have a pet hen that was saved, she was found on the side of the road, fallen off a Purdue truck, I'm guessing) just like any other pet. A rescue from a shelter, or other similar place.(NEVER a store!) I've read(i think it was on this guild.. this is where being on two eco guilds gets confusing)that chickens bred for industry have been bred in such a fashion it causes them to put much of their nutrients in the egg, which, in that case, it would make sense to grind up the egg and feed it back to them(so they don't become an "egg-eater" and make a ridiculous mess. To me, personally, that'd be the equivalent to if I ate my own period, which just seems effing gross but if thats what the chicken needs to do to stay healthy, so be it. If what I read isn't true(I'd deff research it more in depth if I ended up with a rescue hen to see what I need to do, if it turns out they still don't need the eggs for their nutrient replenishment) then I'd probably still compost them(unless whomever I'm living with wants to eat them. Which I would be more of support in anyway, rather than the stuff sold in stores. Tis just not the life for me to eat chicken periods. =P @Hoshioni Even if you could grow back your arms and such, If I ripped your arms off, you''d still be in pain, I wouldn't expect it to be much different with a crab. You'd also be taking away some of their defenses/resources(claws for getting food, legs for running away) even if for only a short time in our life span, compare the critter's average lifespan to ours, with a significantly shorter lifespan on average, two days could be the crabs equivalent for a few weeks, especially defenseless.
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:34 am
hmmm....good point but i still think plants can feel pain too.
need to look into more sea life stuff though see if they can be domesticated lay egs or somthing.
(im not a vegitarian but im not all too fond of red meats anymore...)
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:15 am
Sakakikala Tis just not the life for me to eat chicken periods. =P I really hate it when people refer to eggs as "chicken periods" because it implies that we should find women's periods gross.
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:58 pm
The thing I hate most about vegetarianism, or veganism in general is the black or white view from the population entirely.
Hell, I actually sort of wish "vegetarian" wasn't even a word choice in our dictionary anymore. I mean, all you should have to say is "No, I do not like to eat meat/eggs/dairy/etc"
No other reasons why or questions asked.
The thing that really kinda irks me, in specifics to the black and white view, is the argument that if you're a vegetarian/vegan, you can never eat meat again lest you become omnivore again.
(Even though if you just don't eat meat, it doesn't mean you're not an omnivore in the first place, that would be a misnomer. If you have the natural ability to eat it... and would/could eat it if starving....But I digress.)
When a person who uses drugs comes off of them and doesn't use them for a longer period of time, but some how got back into it for just a night, would that make them "drug free"? If even just for the small amount of time they were?
These kinds of black and white attitudes irk me for some reason, like it can only be either "this" or "that".
I think the best quote I ever heard on vegetarianism came from a Buddhist guild I'm in:
Quote: I was a vegetarian. How it pertains to Buddhism is that all things carry the same essence that we do, and that to eat another "living being" such as an animal, is to destroy that essence and that volition. The inherent problem is that plants are also alive, so although they are not conscious, they are not without volition. I know almost for fact that the Buddha Shakyamuni allowed all of his disciples to eat meat if it was offered to them, as long as the meat and the offering met certain criteria. 1 - the animal could not have been slaughtered primarily for the monks consumption, 2 - the monks could not witness the slaughter or 3 - hear the cries of the animal during the killing. So, considering that Shakyamuni allowed it for his monks, then it would be OK for many of us to eat. Now, exactly how should we approach meat? I, for one, will not order anything containing meat. I will not purchase any meat or meat products in the supermarket. That meat is slaughtered almost exclusively for someone's consumption, and by virtue of me buying it, it becomes an animal slaughtered exclusively for my consumption. I am not a monk, by the way, but I live to the precepts. Anyway - I will eat what is offered to me at a meal either with family or with friends. Even if it's ordered by them for me, then that's fine, but I will not actively persue meat. On the other end of the spectrum - strict vegetarians are subject to one of the three poisons, aversion, because they actively avoid the meat. The whole point is to be passive and compassionate. That's our ultimate goal in all actions, so we need to remember these things when we make even the smallest decision.
These reasons come from a religious doctrine, but I can see how it has logic in it. You can't save animals by not eating them all together, most people won't stop just because you do. It's just the *support* of it by buying it for your own consumption.
Aversion to things can make a person very OCD in some cases; doing whatever they can to avoid it, even going the lengths to purge, throw away, or ultimately waste the food, the life, they thought was veg*n to begin with.
I know because I was once there. I regret it now, because what can you do about it once it's been bought and opened?
If you actively pursue not to buy animal products for your consumption, but decide to eat what's already been bought from others so it is not wasted.... a lot of strict vegetarians would simply refuse the idea that you are vegetarian or even "flexetarian", (some people consider that to be a made up term used by omnivores who don't have the will power to be veg*n full time), during the time you do not partake in eating whatever. That if you still intend to eventually eat meat when it is given to you or offered freely every so often, you are not in the slightest vegetarian. And that kinda irks me a lot, considering if I lived on my own I would not be buying such things.
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:02 pm
Hoshioni hmmm....good point but i still think plants can feel pain too. need to look into more sea life stuff though see if they can be domesticated lay egs or somthing. (im not a vegitarian but im not all too fond of red meats anymore...)
They don't feel pain like animals do, it's the same with bugs, it's said they do not feel pain like most other animals do either.
But for every living thing on this earth there is a force, energy, residing within them for them to grow and to prosper for a set amount of time, and to continue to populate their existence.
And it is important to note that we owe our existence to all of it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:05 pm
Naynram Ukir Hoshioni hmmm....good point but i still think plants can feel pain too. need to look into more sea life stuff though see if they can be domesticated lay egs or somthing. (im not a vegitarian but im not all too fond of red meats anymore...)
They don't feel pain like animals do, it's the same with bugs, it's said they do not feel pain like most other animals do either.
But for every living thing on this earth there is a force, energy, residing within them for them to grow and to prosper for a set amount of time, and to continue to populate their existence.
And it is important to note that we owe our existence to all of it.
i think bugs suffer
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:42 pm
I don't know how we can know to what degree bugs feel pain, or plants for that matter. I guess without a nervous system as in the case of plants, it must not feel as bad as it would for a being with a brain stem but still I can't begin to say I know what it feels like.
I don't think I'd like to have my arms pulled off even if they grew back right away, but as a carrot I don't know if I'd like to be dug up and eaten alive either.
Also, I've never heard the term flexitarian but I guess that's what I'd be since I avoid meat and animal products about 95% of the time, mostly due to cost and healthiness of the items I can afford. Usually it's once every three or four months so maybe I'm more omni than flex. I don't know or care really, but it's an interesting word. Is there a word for someone who never, ever eats fish or other water animals? I'm that too. xp
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