Is Bondage/S&M a bad thing?

[The Noble Protoman.exe]

Cometh The Inquisitor

Think about it. Just what is a true loving relationship? Giving up everything to your partner and them giving up everything to you. Bondage is simply a physical manifestation of that within the context of sex (assuming that it is within a marriage).

How so?

Quote:

Yes, but she was giving the advice pertinent to non-married Christians to everyone.

I still don't see how it's relevant to the non-married, then. I mean, afterall, there are still people out there who want to know if it'd be okay outside of those confines.  

[The Noble Protoman.exe]

Cometh The Inquisitor

Master Protoman_exe

Your answer is "It's debatable." I don't believe it is right, but all these people don't seem to think anything wrong about it using human logic.

Paul used debate and human logic to win over the learned of the Temples in his day. I fail to understand why everyone thinks that 'human logic' is so limited. After all, God gave humanity the ability to be logical and to understand Him (albeit incompletely).

Paul also used sarcasm and other things. I'm not saying human logic is bad, I'm just saying it's not completely right. If people always used human logic, there'd be alot of different thinkers... Oh wait, there are.

All I am trying to say is there can't be two truths.  

[The Noble Protoman.exe]

Continuing responding to your earlier post, Cometh. Yes, submission is the key to a loving relationship; but submission to each other is also true. (I know this might sound a little... off) Breaking out whips, ropes, and other such tools is not exactly equal submission. If you really think about it, a healthy relationship is made when there's that equal submission to one another. With this kind of sex, relation, or whatever you want to call it, There's always someone in control and the other without much. I fail to see how this unequal giving in power is healthy.
For instance (though this may sound like a stereotype to some), there is a couple who "loved" each other back when they were young. They get married. As they get older, they cease to be so "loving" toward the other. The man is too busy at work and the woman is always cleaning the house for her husband and whoever else comes. The man and the woman fight as though it would never end. (I know how this is because it happened to one of my uncles, he is now divorced with no where to live)

Such is an unhealthy relationship, Even though the ideal relationship is one where the husband and wife always come together in agreement to all things. (I know this sounds like babble, but stay with me here)

But what about the equal submission? Well, in the Bible... especially in the New Testament, it says for women to submit to their husbands... It also says, "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church."

Christ's message was one of freedom and of love. So if women are supposed to submit and husbands are to love, why would such relations where whips, ropes, etc. would prevail on the marriage bed (referring to sex) be okay?  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Master Protoman_exe

Cometh The Inquisitor

Master Protoman_exe

Yes actually. The fact that you're arguing though, just tells me you wouldn't accept it.

Then I, my dear sir, am forced to submit that you are a liar and that you have nothing short of 'it doesn't feel right to me' as your evidence. While I am loathe to degenerate to such abrasive language, you must realize how, not only incredibly foolish, but horribly rude, it is to mention evidence that supposedly proves your point, as well as making it look like you made it all up.

Actually, that had nothing to do with you.

He was simply calling my bluff only to call a bluff. I didn't want to argue with someone who doesn't like to accept what others say. (Talking about what he said about relationships)

I never got a chance to call your bluff because you never presented me with any evidence.

But if your evidence doesn't actually prove anything, then yes, I will call you on it. It's not a matter of not accepting what others say (I have no idea how you came to that conclusion), it's a matter of wanting to see some actual proof to support your claim.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but this is the debate subforum. If you can't back up your claim, then it's not worth much. If you don't like bondage, that's fine, but the mere fact that you don't like it doesn't make it morally incorrect.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Master Protoman_exe

Continuing responding to your earlier post, Cometh. Yes, submission is the key to a loving relationship; but submission to each other is also true. (I know this might sound a little... off) Breaking out whips, ropes, and other such tools is not exactly equal submission. If you really think about it, a healthy relationship is made when there's that equal submission to one another. With this kind of sex, relation, or whatever you want to call it, There's always someone in control and the other without much. I fail to see how this unequal giving in power is healthy.

Just because a couple enjoys kinky sex doesn't mean that they're not equal partners in life.

Quote:

For instance (though this may sound like a stereotype to some), there is a couple who "loved" each other back when they were young. They get married. As they get older, they cease to be so "loving" toward the other. The man is too busy at work and the woman is always cleaning the house for her husband and whoever else comes. The man and the woman fight as though it would never end. (I know how this is because it happened to one of my uncles, he is now divorced with no where to live)

That's unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear about your uncle, but I don't see how it's related to whether or not bondage is a sin.

Quote:

Such is an unhealthy relationship, Even though the ideal relationship is one where the husband and wife always come together in agreement to all things. (I know this sounds like babble, but stay with me here)

But what about the equal submission? Well, in the Bible... especially in the New Testament, it says for women to submit to their husbands... It also says, "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church."

Christ's message was one of freedom and of love. So if women are supposed to submit and husbands are to love, why would such relations where whips, ropes, etc. would prevail on the marriage bed (referring to sex) be okay?

Quick clarification: Women are not always the sexually submissive ones. There's quite a few submissive men.

Now, the difference? It's consentual. No one is being forced to submit. The submissive person is doing it because it's (from what I've heard) a rush to put absolute faith and trust in your partner. And for a dominant, it's a rush to know that you have that trust and faith.

You make it sound practically like rape, or that these sexual roles carry over into the rest of life, but neither is true. As I said before, many people who are into bondage prefer to take the opposite role that they have in everday life. And bondage is always, always completely consentual for both parties. No one is being forced to submit. They do it because they want to.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that "normal" sex is some kind of constant ebb and flow between giving and taking on the part of both partners, but that's not true either. As I said, even without whips and chains, there's still a play between dominance and submission in sex. You don't need to be handcuffed to the bed to be completely at the mercy of your partner.

Are you against that sort of dominance and submission as well, or do you just not like the thought of whips and chains?  

[ioioouiouiouio]

Master Protoman_exe

Actually, that had nothing to do with you.

He was simply calling my bluff only to call a bluff. I didn't want to argue with someone who doesn't like to accept what others say. (Talking about what he said about relationships)

Using such a bluff was insulting to the general etiquette of internet debate, and I felt entitled to point that out.  

[ioioouiouiouio]

Master Protoman_exe

But what about the equal submission? Well, in the Bible... especially in the New Testament, it says for women to submit to their husbands... It also says, "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church."

Bondage can be loving. Loving in the sexual way, albeit (and not exactly what that verse was talking about), but still loving.

Quote:

Christ's message was one of freedom and of love. So if women are supposed to submit and husbands are to love, why would such relations where whips, ropes, etc. would prevail on the marriage bed (referring to sex) be okay?

Because it's just sex. Thats it. There's no deeper meaning to the kinky foreplay that goes on in a bondage aficionado's bed.  

[The Noble Protoman.exe]

I'm sorry, can I ask one last thing? Are you guys using Scripture reference? I mean... It's only logical seeing how this IS a Christian guild.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Master Protoman_exe

I'm sorry, can I ask one last thing? Are you guys using Scripture reference? I mean... It's only logical seeing how this IS a Christian guild.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the Scripture that says "thou shalt not chain thy spouse to the bed and have kinky sex."  

[ioioouiouiouio]

Master Protoman_exe

I'm sorry, can I ask one last thing? Are you guys using Scripture reference? I mean... It's only logical seeing how this IS a Christian guild.

Well, my entire argument is that anything that hints at bondage being a sin simply isn't in The Bible, it would be hard for me to pull up non-existent verses.

Well, actually, it would be incredibly easy for me to do that, though it would just be me making up verses that don't actually have any spiritual meaning.  

[Siren of Saturn]

SinfulGuillotine

Master Protoman_exe

Siren of Saturn

crying *snif*
no one answered my question sad I was lost in the mass of debate.

Your answer is "It's debatable." I don't believe it is right, but all these people don't seem to think anything wrong about it using human logic.

You do realise that her question was about a style of trousers, right?

Yay trousers! ^_^  

[Siren of Saturn]

Cometh The Inquisitor

Siren of Saturn

wowwy. O_O

A.) Do bondage pants count?

So sorry. I forgot to give a reply in the rush of debate that this thread seems to be experiencing.

Bondage pants, which, I am assuming, are these things, are simply a style of clothing (specifically pants) with a lot of straps and buttons and zippers on them. It's no more sinful than any other style of clothing (well, for the most part), it just looks different than the norm.

thank you smile  

[xxxdeletemexxx]

I think it's all up to you whether it's 'right' or 'wrong'.
As to whether you're 'treating your body like a temple', if you LIKE pain, then maybe you ARE. I think it's all a matter of how you see it.

I'm not going to bother with quoting the Bible because the Bible is misleading - there's so many discrepancies occuring in the translation from Greek and Hebrew into English, we can't really tell what it truly means.  

[ioioouiouiouio]

Mizer Manakins

I'm not going to bother with quoting the Bible because the Bible is misleading - there's so many discrepancies occuring in the translation from Greek and Hebrew into English, we can't really tell what it truly means.

But we have a pretty good idea concerning what the Greek and Hebrew mean, so The Bible can be taken as Truth, for the most part (99% of the time).  

[dragonlove_48]

Cometh The Inquisitor

Mizer Manakins

I'm not going to bother with quoting the Bible because the Bible is misleading - there's so many discrepancies occuring in the translation from Greek and Hebrew into English, we can't really tell what it truly means.

But we have a pretty good idea concerning what the Greek and Hebrew mean, so The Bible can be taken as Truth, for the most part (99% of the time).

100%, if you look up more then one or two English translations, then the Greek /hebrew words that are untranslatable, or ambiguous become apparent, and at the same time are understood. (if there's no english translation, then the translators will use words close to it, once you combine all the meanings of said words, you have a very good idea what the original word meant.) Most translators go back to the earliest Greek and Hebrew texts we have, not to other english translations, so you're fairly safe.