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 Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:25 pm
We're most certainly stuck on the class system. Once that gets made, everything should move along nicely.
When you think about it, it is the source of all problems:
Skills: need classes first
Rolling system: needs skills
overall structure: made of classes
and on...and on
so we need to figure out a day to tackle this on...when is everyone free to work?
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:37 pm
something else that's been brought up:
What are we going to do with the veteran characters that already have skills? Should we incorporate a training bonus to make up for the loss of everything they've worked for?
I was thinking something like '2 days training (current system) = 1 day (or equivalent) towards new-system skills'
so if a character has trained for a long time (like most of us) they can add up the total days spent learning skills so far, divide that by 2, then apply those 'bonus days' to new-system training.
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Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:43 pm
I just had a thought today that might help make creating the class system a little less complicated.
We could have 6 classes
Full Combat
Full Spiritualism
Full Spellcasting
Combat/Spellcasting
Combat/Spiritualism
Spellcasting/Spiritualism
We can name them something else, I'm just useing these names for illustration purposes.
Basically this could have us keep the basis of what we have now without changing too much, but it also deals with the problem of characters becomeing overpowered.
If you do Full Combat, you can level up the whole combat paths, but you can't learn any spiritualism or spellcasting. The same with any other Full catagory. You can become the most awesome Spellcaster ever, but you will never be able to master a weapon.
With the combined you get a certain amount of paths or skills you can learn. So say you are Combat/Spellcasting. You could maybe learn 2 to 3 paths in each one. You'd have the same amount of skills avaliable to you as a Full catagory, but it would be split between the two areas.
And with each class you could have certain skills that are only avaliable to that class.
I just thought I'd put this out there!
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Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:24 pm
but does this pass Lorika's 'Linear test?' ...and as the math works out, it would become either The Math A-the split-path characters get 2 skillsets per path, meaning full-path characters only get 4 skillsets to choose from/learn or B-split-path characters get 3 skillsets per path, meaning full-path characters can choose from 6 sets...we already have this would a points system work? (for skill levels, I'm referring to the current system for ease-of-reading...the 50 points is a number I chose for simplicity, we can use any number under the sun...) Point system idea? a character can ONLY get 50 points worth of skills, which can be used: focusing on one path: 50 points of skills in that path focusing on 2 paths: 25 points (NO MORE) of skills in each path not focused/all-arounder: 16 points (NO MORE) of skills in each path, with the remaining 2 points being used however the person wants skills would be worth something like: Basic (current system's Intermediate classes) L1-1 pt (eg, Glue) L2-2 pts (Dispel) L3-3 pts (Break) Advanced (current system's Advanced classes) L1-2 pts (Icy Spear) L2-4 pts (Silent Waters) L3-6 pts (Fly) Almighty (possibility? if so, either A-only available to specialists or B-self-made skills) 5-10 points (depending on strength)
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Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:51 am
Okay guys, I'm finally getting round to explaining to y'all how I was thinking Classes would work. Classes as I'm envisioning them are basically a second layer which lies on top of and utilises the skill pools.
As we have discussed, there shall now be a cap on the number of skills you can learn – I think 20 normally, plus the opportunity to make 5 skills yourself?
So here's how it would go – as we have already discussed, there will be classes open to everyone – some basic, some specialised – and then the opportunity to make your own, custom class.
Basic pools (which we need to expand for more choice) would now be open to all classes based in that particular field (e.g open to Hydromancer, Pyromancer, Magician etc). Combination classes (e.g sorcerer, which would combine spellcasting and combat pools) would have 5 max skills, 3+2 from 2 or 2+2+1 from 3 (or whatever combination you can think of).
A “basic” class would draw on FOUR pools – one basic, two intermediate and one advanced. Let's say the class “magician” - he may choose 5 from the Spellcasting pool, 5 from Arcanumancy, 5 from, iunno, Hydromancy and 5 from, let's say, Austromancy. See how there's no longer a binding of Paths?
A specialised class would have 4 again, 1 basic, 1 intermediate and 1 advanced, and then its own specialised pool restricted to that class. A specialised pool doesn't need to include brand new skills – just skills in a different combination from all others. A custom class would follow the same pattern, but the person could choose which pools they wanted and which skills they would like for their custom pool themselves. Either that or give us a description of the class and let one of us do the legwork for them!
Advancement must now somehow be measured by participation rather than time. No more of this “spending” of days! I propose to encourage more roleplaying every single roleplay post you make can be counted towards a skill, and you must make a certain number of posts to learn it. It doesn't have to be training, it can be just regular rping. However, it won't work if you just rp by yourself all the time.
I think that accessing a specialised or custom class should also be restricted by participation – or, more specifically, activity. A person who is active and makes daily posts is obviously more worthy of their own class than others. I don't know, should specialised classes be available from the get-go? A specialised class would be something like “hydromancer.”
PRIORITIES: * FIRST we need to completely reclassify ALL skills. Yup, you hard me. I will shortly produce a format/sheet for classifying skills. I have a feeling that different Levels of skills will now be broken down, as there is a more limited number of skills you can learn we can afford to be specific about every single skill. The key here is that we need to be SPECIFIC and DETAILED in describing exactly what a skill can and cannot do. * After all skills have been reassessed in and of themselves, we need to reconsider POOLS. One by one we need to go through each pool and reassign skills to it. Some skills won't move, but I imagine many will. Of course, skills can be duplicated in more than one pool. Some pools may disappear, I don't like a couple of them too much... * At this point, once existing pools have been addressed, we need to think about creating NEW POOLS for general use. E.G a pool devoted to defensive magic in spiritualism, fire magic in spellcasting …. oh god I know absolutely nothing about combat, what other pools could have for that? >3>; Jeeze I swear I had enough trouble filling it up the first time round! * After this we need to think about making brand new skills.Amongst all of this we need to come up with DESCRIPTIONS for basic and specialised classes. These however SHOULD NOT DICTATE the pools we make – classes slot ON TOP OF pools, remember. Any class that seems more specialised than normal will have its own pool anyway. Ideas to think about: Should a person who has worked their way through a basic class be able to carry over certain skills? Should specialised classes be available from the get-go? Once you guys have had your say in this and any tweaks to the ideas have been done I'll begin handing out jobs for us to get cracking on. I encourage you all to make a list of any problems you don't feel have been addressed... or just a list of any other problems in general. P.S I think classifications of skills will also account for rolling, if we decide for certain on the better means of rolling, rolling bonus caps etc. Take another look at Brain's system, as that's the only definitive thing which has been mapped out... blah, no, FIRST OF ALL give your opinions on EVERYTHING ELSE up here! Then when jobs are given out we can think of rolling. Blah why does everything I write here turn into an incoherent ramble
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:12 pm
Wow.
Nice job.
(I'm going to need to read that a few times to absorb it all, though)
Caps: Twenty total, or twenty per class? Doesn't seem like it'd with the ideas you propose later... Clarify, s'il vous plait?
Would multiple classes be possible under what you're proposing, or am I correct in reading that they wouldn't be?
Would basic and specialized classes be able to stack on each other?
I LOVE the idea of the per-post training. However, one big problem: we wouldn't be able to use the specialized Path-threads (The Sanctuary, etc.) for such, because people might well decide to spam them and thereby train.
On skill classification: Instead of being duplicated in pools, it seems more likely they might end up being duplicated in some classes. Perhaps we could mitigate that by making very similar classes, but not identical ones?
On the Combat problem: perhaps we could have "Schools", something along the lines of (but probably not literally) Western, Eastern, and Exotic?
I don't think Specialized Classes should be available from the get-go. I think, say, maybe you have to learn a few things that are common to all classes, then that. I think a similar system to what you currently now have in the Combat section might work.
But, there's advantages to each: Say, if you take a specialized class, you can't learn any others (or a limited number of others), but if you learn Basic classes, you can learn 2 of them (or a larger number). You'd be trading off skill for sheer volume.
EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. I'd like to bring up the idea of support for classes again.
We could have supporting things to the classes, which means maybe you'd get to pick one or two skills from any other class besides your own, but have the training posts/time plus, say, half again that number. It would only be for skills you could DIRELY need.
On Support Classes: The non-front-lines ones I mentioned earlier. They're only a possibility I'd like to throw out again, but I doubt that they'd remain so. Lorika-sama just suggested Exotic Dancer, and that'd be more Support-ish.
...On second thought, that probably wouldn't work.
On class naming: Perhaps, because of the 5 special skills that people can then make, that would allow them to customize their class (mostly in name only).
EDIT 2: Do we want an elemental scheme? Or would that be too complicated?
Pheuf, hope that made sense.
(Also, thanks for all the time you took, Lorika-sama! It'll take me a while to respond to ya too...)
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:39 pm
don't be so paranoid, it's not too incoherent, just...long Combat Musings: (classes?) Warriors --Ranger (bows/handheld ranged weaponry) --Cannoneer (machinery-based ranged weapons) --Duelist (emphasizing skill/technique) --Berserker (emphasizing power) --Terrorist (some Demo skill, many enemy debuffs, large AoE attacks, basic disruptive stealth abilities) -Military --Warmonger (group-based offensive skills and enemy debuffs) --General (group defensive/organization skills and ally buffs) --Air Force (yup...Sta's BOOAF finally has a class type...) --Navy (bathtub armada! w/ bombarding, hydromancy, and tactics skills) (perhaps meld Navy and Air Force into one 'Vehicular' class?) -Stealth --Assassin (offensive stealth, elements of ranger) --Ninja (combination, includes basic elemental spellcasting and sneaking abilities) --Hunter (following/tracking, basic archer and berserker abilities) --trapper (improvised plans/traps/etc.) -Support: --Surviver (basic medical and archery, essentially the skills you'd need to survive in the wilderness, and to care for others with you) --Crafter (makes weaponry/tools, enchanting, basically an expanded 'Craftsman' class) --Demo expert (explosives, maybe fire magic) --Spy (intelligence, enemy debuffs, bluffing ability) well, those are my thoughts on combat skills/classes
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:33 pm
Metaburo Fanmaker Caps: Twenty total, or twenty per class? Doesn't seem like it'd with the ideas you propose later... Clarify, s'il vous plait? Twenty total. Buuut... actually I'm not sure. This is why I raised the issue of people who change classes - should they get to keep some of their skills? Maybe "Basic" classes should only have 15 skills max and no customisation...? Or maybe allow people to begin in an upgraded class with 5 skills they've already obtained? Or...? Meta Would multiple classes be possible under what you're proposing, or am I correct in reading that they wouldn't be? No, they wouldn't be. Main/Sub just complicates things... it works in mmos, but not here. Meta Would basic and specialized classes be able to stack on each other? No... unless of course, like I said up there, we allow people to carry through skills they've already learned... OOOH maybe ALL skills they've already learned can be carried through if they choose!! OR they can wipe and start afresh, or choose just a few they want to carry through! Meta I LOVE the idea of the per-post training. However, one big problem: we wouldn't be able to use the specialized Path-threads (The Sanctuary, etc.) for such, because people might well decide to spam them and thereby train. Arr, I'd noticed that =< Ohwells... Bai bai specialised training threads! Meta On skill classification: Instead of being duplicated in pools, it seems more likely they might end up being duplicated in some classes. Perhaps we could mitigate that by making very similar classes, but not identical ones? Ehhh I don't really understand what you mean here, as classes are based on pools so the selection of skills are dependent on which pools they appear in... Meta On the Combat problem: perhaps we could have "Schools", something along the lines of (but probably not literally) Western, Eastern, and Exotic? That's certainly an idea - different schools of combat. Could even have a Martial Arts one o3o hurr hurr, Bapp would be happy because he could suggest a few skills for that >3> If I'm right in remembering he does... judo or something? XD Meta I don't think Specialized Classes should be available from the get-go. I think, say, maybe you have to learn a few things that are common to all classes, then that. I think a similar system to what you currently now have in the Combat section might work. Huuuummmm I dunno, I think when you try and offer general things common to all classes the amount of skills you need starts going up, that's what's making me tentative about that. Meta But, there's advantages to each: Say, if you take a specialized class, you can't learn any others (or a limited number of others), but if you learn Basic classes, you can learn 2 of them (or a larger number). You'd be trading off skill for sheer volume. Ehhhhhhhhhh.... I was thinking more one-at-a-time flat... less complex that way... but what does everyone else think on this? Classes will vary in where they stand and what they do obviously by the skills that they have and their purpose, as implied by the name of the class. Meta On class naming: Perhaps, because of the 5 special skills that people can then make, that would allow them to customize their class (mostly in name only). I like this. Custom skills would need to be related to the kind of thing their class is about anyway, so it's really a means of adding more depth to the class. Perhaps as part of their 5 extra skills they could also choose other skills which already exist which they feel would be good for them? Meta EDIT 2: Do we want an elemental scheme? Or would that be too complicated? Actually, maybe an elemental scheme would help mages in battle. However... do you think this would give certain specialised mages permanent disadvantages...?
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:24 pm
Despite what Lorika says, I sort of like the Main/Sub idea, even if it does complicate things. If we went with it, here's an idea: Main class gets skills normally Subclass must be a Basic class, and the character gets 3 Basic skills, 3 Intermediate skills from one skillset, 2 from another, and 2 from an Advanced set (Alt, 3 basic, 3 int -x2-, 1 Adv.) (Alt2, 4 Basic, 2 int -x2-, 2 Adv.) Summary So if I may get this straight: --'skillset' refers to a specific skill group in the Path, eg, Aeromancy-- -The Paths as we know it will still be around -A class is chosen -during character creation?- that dictates what skills can be learned -Basic classes can learn 5 skills from each of: 1 Basic skillset, 2 Intermediate Skillsets, and 1 Advanced skillset. These are -likely- predefined -If a specialized class is chosen, they can learn 5 skills from each of: 1 Basic skillset, 1 Intermediate skillset, 1 Advanced skillset, and 1 custom set. These are predefined -In the custom set, they get to choose 5 skills from anything in the pool. These should -but don't need to?- reflect a certain branch of magic. Example: they must all relate to water in some way, as opposed to just being random skills they wanted. -Custom classes can be created, utilizing the same structure as 'Specialized class' but the player chooses the skillsets to reflect the unique group of skills their character will/does know Class assignment idea I think that a player should count on having a basic class. After they finish their Basic and one of their Intermediate skillsets, assuming they want a specialized class, the mods can review the character and player with questions like: How often do they post? What kind of character is it? Would they abuse the specialized class's custom skillset? and after that, the player could be cleared for specializing or condemned to a life in the Basic class they already have. As for custom classes, I think it should be a 'by approval only, prior to character creation' privilege. When somebody wants the custom class, they must contact a mod with either A-the requested skillsets to be learned. This would be subject to 'is it balanced and does it make sense' approval. or B-basic outline that mods/devs fill in with skillsets As for the elemental idea, I like it because it makes sense, but it would give Spellcasters way too many choices. I rather like the way Spellcasting is arranged now, with the BOO-like elements and the neutral option. Perhaps we should add one more element to that list, like Light or Nature Then, for the SINners, we could use Lorika's idea of Fire, Earth, Dark (or chaos?) and some fourth thing.
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:25 pm
Auuuughhh Mab, always with the complex mathematics D8
Ehh the way you're explaining it people would end up with like 50 skills, which is what they'd be able to get already, so why the hell are we changing it? XD
1. Paths NO. Paths are gone. I was thinking a character could elarn from any pool they had access to at any time, in any order. Leanring times are subjective and based on the SKILL now, not the "tier" it's in. In fact maybe pools shoudlnt be defined as "intermediate" or "advanced" at all - "basic" is just something that's open to ALL classes in a discipline (e.g all mage types, all combat types - combos could elarna few from each)
2. Yes. Unless it chanegs to just 15 skills.
3. Yes.
4. A custom pool can include skills related to the class, not necessarily from other pools in the class, and on request a couple of custom skills could be made for the pool. (Though maybe we should restrict this to you guys - old characters who've been here from the start >3>)
5. Yar
Yes, that's a good way of looking at it. "By approval only" XD
Yeah, elements make sense, but... it just opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, I guess >3>; And yeah, it doesnt make sense if BOO-trained mages can go and be all MUAHAHAA EVIL WARLOCK CHAOS AND s**t XD
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:28 pm
as for that first part, 'Alt' meant 'Alternative division of skills' as opposed to '2nd Subclass' '3rd subclass' etc I'm a bit confused on 1... so you're saying that it'll be like: This organization? -it's simple, but does it get the point across?- 2, 3, 5: I'm not sure what these 'yea's are are referring to, but they can't be bad! 4-so basically, if I had a Water Seer class, based off the Hydromancer class, I could take the Seer-skills from the Seer pool, despite Seer not being part of normal Hydromancy?
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:47 am
Okay, let's walk you guys through the process of creating a custom class.
Bob has been a very active rper for a couple of months, and has contributed a lot to the storyline. He has requested that he be allowed to create a custom class which is named “Magical Fairy Warrior.” He gives a brief description of the class as a warrior who uses fairy dust to provoke a variety of effects on enemies.
As he's been a combo mage-and-warrior class all along, this isn't too much of a stretch. His request is approved.
He decides that he would like to keep his Basic skills. (Remember, skills which are open to all members of a particular discipline.)
He then chooses the Assassin pool for speed and dexterity.
He then chooses the Arcanumancy pool for neutral-based magic.
He then must decide on the skills he wants for his custom pool. Now, here's where we need some discussion – does he choose 5 pre-existing skills, can he request custom skills at this stage or must he wait to create his OWN custom skills?
Let's say he chooses 3 pre-existing and requests 2 custom, and there we have the custom “Magical Fairy Warrior” pool.
A custom class called "water seer" would likely incorporate the divination/seer skills into its pool, yes.
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:05 pm
Exactly as I expected....
hey look, something got accomplished in here!
Reward: WORK HARDER! XD
so where's that skill classification form?
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:34 am
Before I post up the sheet, everyone tell me what they feel they are capable of doing. Could one person handle each discipline or is that too much for you guys? I think I'll take all of Spiritualism myself.
Then once people have volunteered I'll ask you guys to produce ONE (or two) test skill(s) each just to ensure everything's in order and everyone knows what they're doing.
(I'll give some more guidance when I post up the sheet)
I think the rolling system should now go by the number of skills a character has, btw. It makes the most sense with the way we're doing things now.
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:57 am
I could do work in Spellcasting, and maybe a few -read, few- for Combat
as for the rolling system, something like:
1-6 skills: roll 6-sided dice (beginner-style)
7-14 skills: 8-sided dice (because both 7-14 skills and the 8-sided dice correspond to the 'average/intermediate' skill level)
15-20 skills: 12-sided dice (for 'mastery')
with rolling as:
6-same as we have
8-1,2,3=fail, 4,5,6=so-so success, 7,8=success
12-1,2,3,4=fail, 5-9=so-so, 10,11,12=success
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