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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:34 am
All I have to say is scripture speaks for itself. Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-10 (NLT)
So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. Romans 1:24-32 (NLT)
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. Heb 10:26-29 (NLT)
And here is the major one
Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:22 (NLT)
Now if anyone says that those don't apply then how do we know what parts of the Bible apply and don't apply? Well here's your answer.
I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles. 2 Peter 3:2
Proving God spoke it through the prophets and apostles. In the orginal language where it says commanded the word there is breathed. Now there are different forms of that the word breathed in the language that Peter was writing but the only other time that form is used is when it says "God breathed life into man" (that is why you will see Bible with the title The Living Bible). So if you reject certain parts of it then you might as well reject all of it since the whole thing is what God breathed through them.
Also about the fact that it is a sin. Sin is sin either way you look at it. To say that one person is worse than another because they partake in a different kind of sin is rediculous. There isn't one sin that is worse than another for they all keep us from God. We all sin "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. All sin will be forgiven and it will not effect a person's salvation "For by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. Though the person must also repent, which means which means to turn back and not try to do it again, of whatever sin it may be. It is important that we not only as for forgiveness but also repent since it says “If righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and ignore the obstacles I put in their way, they will die" Ezekiel 3:20. God does this so they do not become a stumbling block for others and lead them down the same road. All together we should judge other's because of their sins for we all do it “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others." Mathew 7:1-2, “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye." Mathew 7:3-5. Instead we should show them the love that Christ showed us "Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law" Romans 13:10
***Note: in the orginal language of most of these scriptures the word has different meanings. Just like how the word for virgin and young girl were the same. So when it goes through translation it can be either or. Thus different traslations say different things.***
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:47 am
gothic_black_rose All I have to say is scripture speaks for itself. Alright let's take a look then Quote: Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-10 (NLT) Hmm... Let's take a look at the Greek. Original Greek 9 ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται 10 οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε πλεονέκται, οὐ μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομήσουσιν. The word translated as homosexual is ἀρσενοκοίτης. Paul made this word up and it only appears two times in the entire bible. We do not know with all honesty what it means. To say it means homosexual is wrong since there was already a word that meant homosexual, ομοφυλοφιλικός. Paul had an extensive knowledge of Greek vocabulary so why would he make up a word for homosexual if one already exists. Simple he wasn't condemning homosexuality but something else. Based on the context, it's most likely he was condemning pederasty and the practice of men who had sex with their young apprentices. Quote: So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. Romans 1:24-32 (NLT) Looks more like it's concerning temple prostitution and sexual rituals to other gods than homosexuality. Try again unless you would like to explain how you are seeing homosexuality in this passage. Quote: Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. Heb 10:26-29 (NLT) Let's back pedal in this letter. Hebrews 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless Now what former regulations are they talking about here? Could it be the laws of Leviticus? Acts 15:24-29 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul– men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. Hmm. Again it seems that Leviticus laws do not apply to us as Christians. And until you show that homosexuality is a sexual immorality it seems that this is not an issue either. Quote: And here is the major one Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:22 (NLT) Already covered that Leviticus laws do not apply to Christians. Quote: Now if anyone says that those don't apply then how do we know what parts of the Bible apply and don't apply? Well here's your answer. Simple by this: Matthew 22:36-40 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Quote: I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles. 2 Peter 3:2 Yes and again what does that have to do with homosexuality. Quote: Proving God spoke it through the prophets and apostles. In the orginal language where it says commanded the word there is breathed. Now there are different forms of that the word breathed in the language that Peter was writing but the only other time that form is used is when it says "God breathed life into man" (that is why you will see Bible with the title The Living Bible). So if you reject certain parts of it then you might as well reject all of it since the whole thing is what God breathed through them. Well then I hope you don't wear mixed fabrics, eat shellfish, eat cheeseburgers, eat rare meat or eat pork for all those things are sins to God. Quote: Also about the fact that it is a sin. Sin is sin either way you look at it. To say that one person is worse than another because they partake in a different kind of sin is rediculous. There isn't one sin that is worse than another for they all keep us from God. We all sin "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. All sin will be forgiven and it will not effect a person's salvation "For by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. Though the person must also repent, which means which means to turn back and not try to do it again, of whatever sin it may be. It is important that we not only as for forgiveness but also repent since it says “If righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and ignore the obstacles I put in their way, they will die" Ezekiel 3:20. God does this so they do not become a stumbling block for others and lead them down the same road. All together we should judge other's because of their sins for we all do it “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others." Mathew 7:1-2, “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye." Mathew 7:3-5. Instead we should show them the love that Christ showed us "Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law" Romans 13:10 Amen ***Note: in the orginal language of most of these scriptures the word has different meanings. Just like how the word for virgin and young girl were the same. So when it goes through translation it can be either or. Thus different traslations say different things.***
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:08 am
rmcdra gothic_black_rose All I have to say is scripture speaks for itself. Alright let's take a look then Quote: Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-10 (NLT) Hmm... Let's take a look at the Greek. Original Greek 9 ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται 10 οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε πλεονέκται, οὐ μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομήσουσιν. The word translated as homosexual is ἀρσενοκοίτης. Paul made this word up and it only appears two times in the entire bible. We do not know with all honesty what it means. To say it means homosexual is wrong since there was already a word that meant homosexual, ομοφυλοφιλικός. Paul had an extensive knowledge of Greek vocabulary so why would he make up a word for homosexual if one already exists. Simple he wasn't condemning homosexuality but something else. Based on the context, it's most likely he was condemning pederasty and the practice of men who had sex with their young apprentices. Quote: So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. Romans 1:24-32 (NLT) Looks more like it's concerning temple prostitution and sexual rituals to other gods than homosexuality. Try again unless you would like to explain how you are seeing homosexuality in this passage. Quote: Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. Heb 10:26-29 (NLT) Let's back pedal in this letter. Hebrews 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless Now what former regulations are they talking about here? Could it be the laws of Leviticus? Acts 15:24-29 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul– men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. Hmm. Again it seems that Leviticus laws do not apply to us as Christians. And until you show that homosexuality is a sexual immorality it seems that this is not an issue either. Quote: And here is the major one Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:22 (NLT) Already covered that Leviticus laws do not apply to Christians. Quote: Now if anyone says that those don't apply then how do we know what parts of the Bible apply and don't apply? Well here's your answer. Simple by this: Matthew 22:36-40 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Quote: I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles. 2 Peter 3:2 Yes and again what does that have to do with homosexuality. Quote: Proving God spoke it through the prophets and apostles. In the orginal language where it says commanded the word there is breathed. Now there are different forms of that the word breathed in the language that Peter was writing but the only other time that form is used is when it says "God breathed life into man" (that is why you will see Bible with the title The Living Bible). So if you reject certain parts of it then you might as well reject all of it since the whole thing is what God breathed through them. Well then I hope you don't wear mixed fabrics, eat shellfish, eat cheeseburgers, eat rare meat or eat pork for all those things are sins to God. Quote: Also about the fact that it is a sin. Sin is sin either way you look at it. To say that one person is worse than another because they partake in a different kind of sin is rediculous. There isn't one sin that is worse than another for they all keep us from God. We all sin "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. All sin will be forgiven and it will not effect a person's salvation "For by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. Though the person must also repent, which means which means to turn back and not try to do it again, of whatever sin it may be. It is important that we not only as for forgiveness but also repent since it says “If righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and ignore the obstacles I put in their way, they will die" Ezekiel 3:20. God does this so they do not become a stumbling block for others and lead them down the same road. All together we should judge other's because of their sins for we all do it “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others." Mathew 7:1-2, “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye." Mathew 7:3-5. Instead we should show them the love that Christ showed us "Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law" Romans 13:10 Amen ***Note: in the orginal language of most of these scriptures the word has different meanings. Just like how the word for virgin and young girl were the same. So when it goes through translation it can be either or. Thus different traslations say different things.*** The idea that they don't apply to us is the fact that the Laws are for those that are unruly to keep them in line. I have to find the scripture for that one. The reason why they don't apply to use is because we should already be doing what is right according to God. Also if you are saying the Old Testiment doesn't apply then how would we know if Jesus was the Messiah because he had to fulfill all the prophesies to prove he was in fact what he said. Also I noticed you didn't read Leviticus in it's orginal language. Anyways the reasonwe aren't kosher is because of what is said in Acts 11:4-9 "Then Peter told them exactly what had happened. 5 “I was in the town of Joppa,” he said, “and while I was praying, I went into a trance and saw a vision. Something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners from the sky. And it came right down to me. When I looked inside the sheet, I saw all sorts of small animals, wild animals, reptiles, and birds. 7 And I heard a voice say, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat them.’“‘No, Lord,’ I replied. ‘I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure or unclean.’ “But the voice from heaven spoke again: ‘Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.’ This happened three times before the sheet and all it contained was pulled back up to heaven. Also what about when Noah's son came into his tent and saw Noah naked and gazed upon (orginal meaning lusted) him? That son was cursed was he not?
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:24 am
gothic_black_rose The idea that they don't apply to us is the fact that the Laws are for those that are unruly to keep them in line. I have to find the scripture for that one. Paul would disagree. Colossians 2 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Quote: The reason why they don't apply to use is because we should already be doing what is right according to God. But are we not all sinners and fall short of the glory of the lord unless you are implying that we can save ourselves through the law? Quote: Also if you are saying the Old Testiment doesn't apply then how would we know if Jesus was the Messiah because he had to fulfill all the prophesies to prove he was in fact what he said. I'm saying that it was included for historical purposes so we can appreciate the gift of Salvation that is offered through our covenant with God, considering how tough it was under the old covenant and that the old covenant would not bring us salvation. Quote: Also I noticed you didn't read Leviticus in it's orginal language. And is there something in the original language of Hebrew that I have left out that you would like to share? Quote: Anyways the reason we aren't kosher is because of what is said in Acts 11:4-9 "Then Peter told them exactly what had happened. 5 “I was in the town of Joppa,” he said, “and while I was praying, I went into a trance and saw a vision. Something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners from the sky. And it came right down to me. When I looked inside the sheet, I saw all sorts of small animals, wild animals, reptiles, and birds. 7 And I heard a voice say, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat them.’“‘No, Lord,’ I replied. ‘I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure or unclean.’ “But the voice from heaven spoke again: ‘Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.’ This happened three times before the sheet and all it contained was pulled back up to heaven. Okay that applies to food but it still doesn't address how we are free from having to keep beards (Leviticus 19:27), that we can breed mules, wear mixed clothing, and plant crops in cycles (Leviticus 19:19). So if this is all freed by this Acts 11:4-9 then why is homosexuality not freed from this? Quote: Also what about when Noah's son came into his tent and saw Noah naked and gazed upon (orginal meaning lusted) him? That son was cursed was he not? So you are equating incest with homosexuality? Also what does incest have to do with this topic?
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:31 pm
I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me.
I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it.
So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place.
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:10 pm
1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point.
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:14 pm
rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. Thank you, I try.
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:37 pm
1upMushroomCloud rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. Thank you, I try. Small correction on my part. United Methodist Church on Human sexuality. They take the Catholic/Orthodox stance that the act is a sin, not the attraction. Regardless though, the fact remains even if I'm wrong and it is a sin, we have an advocate with the Father for the forgiveness of all sins because all have fallen short of the Glory of the Lord.
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:57 pm
rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. Thank you, I try. Small correction on my part. United Methodist Church on Human sexuality. They take the Catholic/Orthodox stance that the act is a sin, not the attraction. Regardless though, the fact remains even if I'm wrong and it is a sin, we have an advocate with the Father for the forgiveness of all sins because all have fallen short of the Glory of the Lord. Precisely, that was a big contributor to making me want to join the Methodist movement; The fact that the core of their belief system is everyone is of equal, sacred worth before God, and all deserve our love, care, protection, and equal justice under the law. Even people of other religions. That kind of mercy and openness was precisely what I want from the Church.
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:48 pm
❝Actually you mean Old Testament, as far as I can tell. It's not in the New Testament.
And according to my pastor, no sin can keep you from Heaven or God, because Jesus' sacrifice covers past, present, AND future sin. Jesus also nullified Old Testament Laws.
And for that matter, regardless, God loves everyone, and I truly don't believe it's a sin at all.❞
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:22 pm
I guess I'll copypasta my stock answer again...
The modern concept of homosexuality did not exist in biblical times- that is, two people seeking a loving and committed relationship to one another, like a man and woman would in marriage.
In the context of the time period, the OT verses would probably refer to pagan ritual orgies, so they would fall under idolatry. The NT ones would refer to the Greco-Roman practice of men taking boy lovers as a rite of passage, which implied effeminacy which was something hated in the culture, or it may also refer to temple prostitution, which was a major issue in Corinth.
Nothing speaks against a loving, companionate relationship.
Off topic: Methodists are awesome cool
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:03 pm
Priestess of Sekhmet Okay, so I'm pansexual. For those who don't know, it means I don't take gender into account when I choose my partners. Meaning I can be attracted to transgendered people and androgynous people as well. Now, I believe that Jesus loves me no matter who I love. And I also believe God loves me no matter who I love. In the New Testament we are told that being gay is wrong, but it's right next to not wearing blended fabrics. Sooo.... Discus. smile short & heart sweet heart :in all matters that i don't understand, I meditate and pray for as long as need be. I ask God to send me a sign a message that I can understand (one that's simple yet significant so I know it's intended for me). Everyone here quotes Scripture, but no one has yet mentioned the fact that we can all talk directly with God and that he can and will answer us. He knows the concerns of our hearts and he wouldn't leave us in the dark when He who we seek is the light.
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:39 pm
rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. All sins can be forgiven BUT you have to admit whole-heartedly that you were wrong and sinful in your action and ask for that forgiveness. To all human beings in such situations (long-term monogamous relationships), I don't know how any of us could genuinely regret having sex with someone we loved deeply. In our hearts we would feel justified. So...
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Gjornia X rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. All sins can be forgiven BUT you have to admit whole-heartedly that you were wrong and sinful in your action and ask for that forgiveness. To all human beings in such situations (long-term monogamous relationships), I don't know how any of us could genuinely regret having sex with someone we loved deeply. In our hearts we would feel justified. So... But how the state of being homosexual or lesbian a sin? How can someone be someone if they are what they are?
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:34 pm
Gjornia X rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud I can't argue with what rmcdra quoted but I don't think I'm entirely convinced. I don't see anything wrong with a person loving someone of the same sex, but it's the part where they attempt to seal that love with sex that it gets tricky for me. I'm not convinced that it's perfectly okay, but even if it isn't, I'm not worried about someone being gay. I think that if God can forgive someone for adultery between a man and a woman, he can forgive someone for monogamous, committed sex between two men, if He even takes offense to it. So, long story short. I don't know if Homosexuality is a sin or not, but the Bible says that our sins are forgiven in the first place. Fair enough and good point. I know the United Methodist Church holds that homosexuality is a sin, but as you stated all sins can be forgiven. If it is a sin, why should homosexuality be treated any differently? If it is a sin, why should it be held to a different standard? You make an excellent point. All sins can be forgiven BUT you have to admit whole-heartedly that you were wrong and sinful in your action and ask for that forgiveness. To all human beings in such situations (long-term monogamous relationships), I don't know how any of us could genuinely regret having sex with someone we loved deeply. In our hearts we would feel justified. So... That is where God's gift of wisdom comes into play. If the wisdom comes from God then it will be true and pass any test. The surest test would be if it passes the greatest commandment. If you are in a relationship that does not show affection toward God, your neighbor, your enemy, or yourself, then it's probably something that is going to hurt your relationship with Christ. While a bit of a crude test, it offers a starting point for evaluation.
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