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 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:06 am
ScionoftheBlade Shaviv By community affiliation I'm an Orthodox Jew. I was also raised by my parents, both Orthodox as well, to use logic and critical thinking when evaluating arguments, which I was helped in by eight years of studying Talmud in the yeshivoth I attended. I guess I"ll have to trust your term of "orthodox" then you should know what a Tzeduki is so thats settled what do you mean by "8 years of talmud"? from what age? From fourth grade, so... from about ten years of age to eighteen, when I graduated from the yeshiva I attended for high school. (It's an Orthodox school, by the way.) What does "Orthodox" mean to you?
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:12 am
Shaviv ScionoftheBlade Shaviv By community affiliation I'm an Orthodox Jew. I was also raised by my parents, both Orthodox as well, to use logic and critical thinking when evaluating arguments, which I was helped in by eight years of studying Talmud in the yeshivoth I attended. I guess I"ll have to trust your term of "orthodox" then you should know what a Tzeduki is so thats settled what do you mean by "8 years of talmud"? from what age? From fourth grade, so... from about ten years of age to eighteen, when I graduated from the yeshiva I attended for high school. (It's an Orthodox school, by the way.) What does "Orthodox" mean to you? I mean how religious do you consider orthodox? did you have friends who didn't keep kosher? did you have cable? did you go to movies? I can go on and on but I'll trust your terminollogy. so you brushed halachah in A yeshivah HS and decided your reasoning was then honed to perfection? hahaha no offense you funny, sure gemarah etc sharpens the mind but its a learning process you have to learn introspection and mussar to sharpen what skills you learned
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:21 am
I never have had cable TV in the house. Never got the idea of why it's fun either. Most of the stuff on is utter s**t, in a number of ways.
Did I have friends who didn't keep kosher? Well, yes. They weren't Jewish, though, so I suppose that doesn't quite count. Did I make friends with kids who weren't Jewish? Why, yes, I did. They were my neighbors. It is only proper that I should be friendly with my neighbors. I just didn't eat at their tables.
Those of my relatives who are not Jewish, it perhaps goes without saying that I was and remain friendly with them. However, they understand that when my family visits them, we prefer to eat kosher food and be scrupulous about what dishes we use.
I didn't brush halakha in school; we went into it in some depth, but that's not important. The important thing is, my fellow students and I were taught to apply logic and critical thinking to all things around us. It's no coincidence that logic and critical thinking have consistently proven themselves to be the best tools we have for understanding the world around us.
It is nonsensical to say that you should use critical thinking, but at the same time insist that there are sacred cows which must not be questioned. Yet, it's nearly cultural suicide to abandon logic and critical thinking; it's certainly stupid.
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:25 am
Shaviv I never have had cable TV in the house. Never got the idea of why it's fun either. Most of the stuff on is utter s**t, in a number of ways. Did I have friends who didn't keep kosher? Well, yes. They weren't Jewish, though, so I suppose that doesn't quite count. Did I make friends with kids who weren't Jewish? Why, yes, I did. They were my neighbors. It is only proper that I should be friendly with my neighbors. I just didn't eat at their tables. Those of my relatives who are not Jewish, it perhaps goes without saying that I was and remain friendly with them. However, they understand that when my family visits them, we prefer to eat kosher food and be scrupulous about what dishes we use. I didn't brush halakha in school; we went into it in some depth, but that's not important. The important thing is, my fellow students and I were taught to apply logic and critical thinking to all things around us. It's no coincidence that logic and critical thinking have consistently proven themselves to be the best tools we have for understanding the world around us. It is nonsensical to say that you should use critical thinking, but at the same time insist that there are sacred cows which must not be questioned. Yet, it's nearly cultural suicide to abandon logic and critical thinking; it's certainly stupid. then it must be nonsensical to insist that there is this eternal invisible entity that controls the world
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:27 am
Shaviv It is nonsensical to say that you should use critical thinking, but at the same time insist that there are sacred cows which must not be questioned. Yet, it's nearly cultural suicide to abandon logic and critical thinking; it's certainly stupid. Although I appreaciate the first half of what you wrotes duplicity I think this part is more relevant. As I stated I don't like taking the religious high ground because I am not researched enough to properly defend it. what your missing is the little thing called human nature. I assume your "yeshivah" never taught mussar or youd have learned to evaluate yourself and the people around you beyond the tunnel vision you are born with. Even within you "logic and reasoning" you fail to properly evaluate the reasons behind the discriminatory actions, if it were merely moantary then how can men go and spend the same money friviliously elsewhere? Humans are complex, never take the face value
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:36 am
I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context.
Zonko: it's nonsensical to insist that it is so. It's not nonsense to say, "I believe that..." but it is nonsensical to say "It is so" without both strong evidence and necessity.
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:38 am
Shaviv I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context. I give up. I tried explaining it as simply as I could but unfortunately you still don't understand and I don't have tiome to repeat myself, hopefully I can be online again soon
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:40 am
Shaviv I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context. Zonko: it's nonsensical to insist that it is so. It's not nonsense to say, "I believe that..." but it is nonsensical to say "It is so" without both strong evidence and necessity. then what is belief, if, to the believer, it isn't so. you can't learn halakha properly without mussar. its like you can't have pizza without sauce
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:41 am
ZonkotheSane Shaviv I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context. Zonko: it's nonsensical to insist that it is so. It's not nonsense to say, "I believe that..." but it is nonsensical to say "It is so" without both strong evidence and necessity. then what is belief, if, to the believer, it isn't so. you can't learn halakha properly without mussar. its like you can't have pizza without sauce as a worker in a pizzeria I can say that is a bad example lots of people eat pizza without sauce
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:43 am
ScionoftheBlade Shaviv I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context. I give up. I tried explaining it as simply as I could but unfortunately you still don't understand and I don't have tiome to repeat myself, hopefully I can be online again soon I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, I'm asking you to make yourself clear. I did not understand the relevance of what you said. Repeating it doesn't change the fact that I don't see the relevance. But have fun, in the meantime.
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:48 am
ScionoftheBlade ZonkotheSane Shaviv I will confess that I do not understand what human nature has to do with whether or not rational thought is the best way of deciding how to arrange your affairs. Nor do I understand what mussar has to do with it, in this context. Zonko: it's nonsensical to insist that it is so. It's not nonsense to say, "I believe that..." but it is nonsensical to say "It is so" without both strong evidence and necessity. then what is belief, if, to the believer, it isn't so. you can't learn halakha properly without mussar. its like you can't have pizza without sauce as a worker in a pizzeria I can say that is a bad example lots of people eat pizza without sauce mebe cheese is better. i think it still applies. after all, alot of poeple learn withou mussar
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:49 am
ZonkotheSane Shaviv Zonko: it's nonsensical to insist that it is so. It's not nonsense to say, "I believe that..." but it is nonsensical to say "It is so" without both strong evidence and necessity. then what is belief, if, to the believer, it isn't so. Belief should be properly acknowledged as belief rather than fact. You can prove facts. That's the main difference between faith and facthood. Quote: you can't learn halakha properly without mussar. its like you can't have pizza without sauce To my understanding, mussar is rabbinical advice that modifies halakha. However, if the rabbis are not willing to use the rules of logic, given that halakha and mussar are part of a logical tradition, we should disregard their advice. Failing to do so is part of a really, really bad habit called "blind obedience to authority". You should obey authority because it is right - but only if it is right. If the authority in question is wrong, you should not obey. Or, if you are forced to obey, you should try to minimize the damage your obedience does.
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:55 am
this is a big problem. some poeple can't accept that others may be indeed much smarter and wiser than they could ever hope to be. do you think that you could ever match wits with the vilna goan?
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:38 am
ZonkotheSane this is a big problem. some poeple can't accept that others may be indeed much smarter and wiser than they could ever hope to be. do you think that you could ever match wits with the vilna gaon? I don't know about smarter and wiser. Nor am I sure about the relevance. The smartest person in the world may yet hold false beliefs. The wisest person in the world may yet deliver incorrect judgements. But this isn't about perfection.
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:29 pm
Shaviv ZonkotheSane this is a big problem. some poeple can't accept that others may be indeed much smarter and wiser than they could ever hope to be. do you think that you could ever match wits with the vilna gaon? I don't know about smarter and wiser. Nor am I sure about the relevance. The smartest person in the world may yet hold false beliefs. The wisest person in the world may yet deliver incorrect judgements. But this isn't about perfection. no, its about humility
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