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 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:47 am
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:22 pm
Hmm, I think I know what you mean Mel. I've made my elves different than humans in many ways, but they're not all superior to humans. By this I mean that, the average elf, is usually superior to the average human in my story but, the others might not be superior. For example, a below average elf might be just as athletic as an above average human. You know?
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:01 am
That's still giving them the superiority complex though.
In my world, there's a higher percentage of elves that would be naturally adept at magic (whether they choose to use it or not is another matter), and there's a lower percentage of humans who are adept at it. The majority of elves and the minority of humans that are naturally or would be naturally good at magic if they studied it would be more or less equal. Those who are not naturals have to work harder at it.
The ancient civilisation I have mentioned in my world are humans, and there are those within it that are naturally phenomenal with magic (for reasons I cannot give away at this time) and are better than any other intelligent being in that world. This doesn't go for all of them. That ratio is in the thousands though, not the millions that can inhabit one nation. So, there's one civilisation that harbours some humans that are superior to elves, though in terms of NORMAL elves and humans, there is a higher ratio of elves. Does that make sense?
Elves have better hearing and sight though. They'll usually be able to hear or see things at a distance sooner than humans can. My elves have longer ears than those in most fantasy works though.
Is there a good way to describe an elf's ears? I mean there are varying types of shape and various artists and authors all have a different idea of what their elves look like. My elves have ears like this girl - http://images.mmosite.com/photo/2007/09/18/l2_elf0015PriqT08a3.jpg
Here's some that someone on Elfwood drew - http://images.elfwood.com/art/l/y/lydiabell13/elf_ears.jpg.rZd.56522.jpg
How would you describe any of those?
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:59 pm
For once I don't have much to say about elves rolleyes , but I can say that at least things like enhanced hearing and vision and other sense can have a perfectly non elf-biased explination( if that makes sense). The reason the elves might have such a thing is that they are almot always said to be one of the oldest if not the first race of intelligent humanoids, this theory of course only works if you belive in another theory, that being of evolution.
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:23 am
Wikipedia says something a bit different from that regarding elves in "high fantasy". In mythology, it says something else as well. Take a look at what the site says, it's interesting to say the least.
It's just what this guy said that bugs me. If elves aren't superior to humans in practically every way, then they're not elves. I think he's wrong personally. He said that without that, they're just special pointy-eared humans (as mentioned before), so there needs to be SOME differentiation for the most part at least.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:16 pm
I'd say that, in the case of traditional literature, he has a point to some extent. After all, in old myths and legends, Elves tended to be like unto gods and demi-gods. Sometimes, even were. But in the case of modern literature, I think he's got it wrong and that Elves aren't really idealized humans (though, admittedly, that depends on what your definition of "ideal" is). More and more often, these days, they're depicted as fading away and losing their power or not being able to deal with change. Immortal Elves have to deal with the fact that they're immortal and will likely see the end of the world (if their world has one), which can have a profound effect on their psyche. Long-lived Elves have to deal with the fact that everything will change around them and that has its own consequences. These days, such things tend to be examined rather more closely and we have an idea that they aren't necessarily good things.
Berz.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:35 pm
Berzerker_prime I'd say that, in the case of traditional literature, he has a point to some extent. After all, in old myths and legends, Elves tended to be like unto gods and demi-gods. Sometimes, even were. But in the case of modern literature, I think he's got it wrong and that Elves aren't really idealized humans (though, admittedly, that depends on what your definition of "ideal" is). More and more often, these days, they're depicted as fading away and losing their power or not being able to deal with change. Immortal Elves have to deal with the fact that they're immortal and will likely see the end of the world (if their world has one), which can have a profound effect on their psyche. Long-lived Elves have to deal with the fact that everything will change around them and that has its own consequences. These days, such things tend to be examined rather more closely and we have an idea that they aren't necessarily good things. Berz.
His view though was that they had to be superior to humans in order for them to be elves. I believe they need to be different, and that as per my explanation above, they'd likely have better eyesight, better hearing, and have a higher percentage of those naturally adept at magic than humans.
I'd say they'd be more akin to nature and aware of the world's balance than most humans as well. There are humans who'd be that way, such as people like that of the Native Americans, but elves will always have that element of unearthly grace. I just can't see them as being superior to humans as they appear to be in LotR and other fantasy works.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:55 pm
I don't really find them to be superior to humans in LotR, mainly for the reasons I stated above. The entire reason they're in the process of leaving for Valinor during the books is because they just plain can't deal with change. The Three Rings were actually an attempt to keep things on Middle-earth from changing which is why Lothlorien and Rivendell have a sort of unearthly and vaguely creepy quality to them. Plus, their immortality is something of a curse, since they're stuck in the world and will end when it does (something which we are told happens but is not actually written about beyond that).
All this, though, is only boiling under the surface of the Elves, though. You have to look at it rather critically to see it. But that's for a very specific reason. LotR is supposed to be in the vein of traditional epic tales where such things as Elves are powerful and other-worldly.
Berz.
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:24 am
You see things more the way I do I suppose. I just wanted clarification that this friend of a friend has at least a couple of wires crossed somewhere. In my world there are "some" humans who are otherworldly, or are just as in tune with nature as elves are.
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:59 pm
Hmm, I think we share some views too Mel. Like with everything, not all of my elves are better than humans in one of my worlds. I'm not sure how much I should share cuz, like you, I am protective of my work. mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:09 am
I think I'll have a fat elf appear in my books, just to see my readers' reactions.
Personally, I don't like Tolkien's elves or similar ones. Not the impression that remained with me after the films, vague memories of the first two books, and of course fantasy books with similar elves. I don't mind the fact that they're arrogant; that makes them less good, and it's the fact that they're so damned good/Good (that's a weird word...) and graceful and otherworldy and wonderful and pretty and merry and positively bursting with magic, that I don't like. I hate elves like that.
I'm currently reading the Arrandin Trilogy by Marcus Herniman. Although there's no mention of pointy ears, his potrayal of a race called the Fay positively screams elf - and those gents and ladies are all wonderfully magical, merry, Good, beautiful, longlived, all that - 'cept for the shadowfay, who of course are nasty and Evil though still pretty.
I want to murder the whole bunch of them.
Oh, but elves in general are fun. I just don't like the ones who dance and play all day long, filling the hearts of Men with wonder and joy, showing them the way to and of the Light (especially that last part there).
It seems to me that Tolkien, in a time where the elves of folklore (short and pixie-like or a bunch of women dancing the unwary traveller to death) are more common, created this (sort of) new kind of elves, completely swept us off our feet with it, and now it has festered so deeply into our minds we can't imagine them as anything else, just as how someone can say "dwarf" and the listener will immediately think, "Short, stocky guy with a long beard, the women probably have beards as well or are like the female dwarves of Lineage II - little girls - or simply don't exist at all, as some people of Middle Earth believe."
Haha, long post full of crap. sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:16 pm
Ha-ha, fat elf. I suppose most of my elves are alike. However, I've been thinking of making some kind of elf and another race hybrids. For example, you would think an elf could mate with a human, right? It may not be badly viewed but, how about an elf and a dwarf? I'm not so sure about that one but it could be interesting to see readers reactions, wouldn't you say? mrgreen
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Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:31 pm
What is it with people and crossbreeding in this guild....? -_-'
With elves and dwarves (in stereotypical instances at least) it's like a noblewoman sleeping with a fat, greasy, hairy middle-aged man! Possible but........NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! in my opinion.
I felt this way about Kingdom Hearts. The concept of worlds/universes clashing was interesting, but combining Disney and Final Fantasy. evil
Not good. BAD in fact. VERY BAD Square Enix (sorry if you like it - I hate it, and yes I've seen it being played - made me cringe). The new characters they made, like Sora, would have worked fine with Disney on their own or with characters from some of Square's other games....but NOT FF as far as I'm concerned.
The same concepts apply here. What's the next crossbreeding topic? Is it possible to cross a fairy with a mosquito or a gnat? If you said trying to cross a fairy with a sprite then I'd say "hmm...probably" because they're from the same family as it were. Anyhow, that's for the crossbreeds topic.
My question was about whether elves are still elves if they're not "superior" to humans in few or any ways. Berz has already given her opinion, and Marcairn had her own view too.
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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:02 am
We're all here because we like fantasy. Fantasy is fond of testing the limits of reality. Thus we are also fond of testing the limits of reality.
Well, not necessarily, but anyhow.
What if it were a male elf and female dwarf? Then the only difference (sort of) would be height. I must agree though, that is a very disturbing thought.
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