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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:09 am
lymelady Nothing I can find says that cleft palate is deadly or negatively affects your mental capacity. I've been searching for awhile. It might, though, I'm not denying that. I'm just not finding it. Both ShadowIce and I recall hearing about a cleft palate sometimes extending into the brain, but I can't find anything on this (I swear that it is a really rare, very severe, condition - and that I saw an article or news program about a baby who died from this a few years ago - but I find nothing...). However I found a few articles about cleft palate and some brain abnormalities: here and here (might be about the same study) Also, there was some sort of study done on mice: hereUsually (it looks like), cleft palate is fixable and only results in looking different and trouble speaking (without corrective surgery). lymelady And I honestly haven't met many women in the third trimester who think of their wanted fetuses as things other than babies; I wouldn't walk up to someone who miscarried in the 7th month and say, "I'm so sorry for the loss of your fetus." I know someone that had that happen, and when she cried, she was crying over the loss of her child, not over the loss of her potential child. Well, yes. But pregnant women have so many hormones coursing through their bodies that are already creating bonding feelings with the unborn human (because our babies are so hard to take care of, and take so long to grow up, that if we didn't instinctually want to protect them, we wouldn't have survived as a species). I agree that it would be mean to say such a thing to a woman who had miscarried (just "I'm sorry for your loss" would work, after all). That doesn't mean that the term "fetus" doesn't apply to late-term unborn humans. Though, of course, "baby" also can apply to unborn humans (as can "child" in the sense of "offspring"). Just because emotional people think of the unborn human they carry as "their baby" or "their child" doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to think that way (personally, I plan when I am pregnant to refer to it as "my fetus" and force everyone else to do so - for my pregnancy - as well *wink*). Though, to be safe, I would suggest calling it whatever she wants, when you are around a pregnant woman. They can be scary. *laughs* lymelady I call my cats my babies too, but in the same way, I'd be utterly repulsed if someone called his cat a baby, it developed a curable problem that didn't cause much suffering when cured, but instead of fixing it or giving it to a family that was willing to have it fixed, he had it put to sleep. True. I feel that way as well. On the other hand, I would understand putting an animal to sleep if it needed a very expensive operation and its chances of survival were minimal, or if it were suffering. Likewise, I understand abortions in cases where the unborn human is unlikely to survive long (not in cases like dwarfism), like that poor baby born with no brain and hole in its head.
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:48 pm
I believe it's very possible, I seem to remember something about it, but I don't think it's very likely that it will happen even if you're born with cleft pallet. Then again, by the same logic I feel that way (having talked with my doctor about the possibility since I'm on medication that may increase the risk, and not being able to find anything), lyme disease never kills people if treated for 4 weeks with antibiotics. I absolutely know that's not the case, though I can't really find information on it and half of my doctors have insisted that's not the case, while the other half maintains that it is in some cases.
But again...it doesn't seem to be very common. The study with mice is interesting, but they were selectively experimenting to see what would happen; that study involved gene targeting and wasn't a natural occurrence. It's usefulness is that it may help prevent cleft palate or even fix it if it's starting to develop. The others were interesting and something to think about, so I'll amend my statement to say that it doesn't appear to affect your mental capacity to the point of retardation.
And yes, I agree, however if someone THINKS of their fetus as a baby and then find out that fetus isn't perfect so they think of it as less than a baby instead when it's a minor problem, I'm a bit disgusted because I want to know what that person thinks of born people with the same condition. I'm not saying that thinking of something as a baby makes it a baby, rather, to stop cherishing someone or something based on something like dwarfism or cleft lip/pallet disgusts me.
And I agree, I would understand putting an animal to sleep or having an abortion (whether or not I agree with it, I understand it) in cases like that, but this isn't the situation presented.
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:21 pm
lymelady But again...it doesn't seem to be very common. The study with mice is interesting, but they were selectively experimenting to see what would happen; that study involved gene targeting and wasn't a natural occurrence. It's usefulness is that it may help prevent cleft palate or even fix it if it's starting to develop. The others were interesting and something to think about, so I'll amend my statement to say that it doesn't appear to affect your mental capacity to the point of retardation. Yeah, I only included the mice study because I thought it was interesting, and (of course) those mice were made to have cleft palate, to study it better (and maybe someday prevent it or treat it very early!). I'll agree that cleft palate doesn't seem to usually cause mental retardation, but I also find it interesting that it does seem to be linked to some slight mental issues (in common cases). lymelady And yes, I agree, however if someone THINKS of their fetus as a baby and then find out that fetus isn't perfect so they think of it as less than a baby instead when it's a minor problem, I'm a bit disgusted because I want to know what that person thinks of born people with the same condition. Since this woman doesn't exist it is hard to know. But, from the OP, I would assume that she wouldn't like born humans with dwarfism or cleft palate either. lymelady And I agree, I would understand putting an animal to sleep or having an abortion (whether or not I agree with it, I understand it) in cases like that, but this isn't the situation presented. Yes. I just wanted to state that I felt that way on other cases, but that the case is question doesn't meet those requirements.
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:24 am
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:08 am
Texas Gypsy BTW, if anyone thought I was making the scenario up, read these and weep. It is beyond sad. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04053105.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/17/health.healthandwellbeing http://www.lifenews.com/nat2533.html Wow. I cannot imagine aborting for a cleft palate or a deformed limb, especially not in the third trimester. I probably would abort for downs syndrome. Not only do I not feel like I have the ability to raise someone with such a severe disability, I feel that having such a horrible disorder would not make for a good quality of life. I respect that other people feel differently, and am amazed by anyone who raises such children. But, personally, I do not feel that I have the emotional capacity to keep a pregnancy know that the unborn human has downs syndrome, let alone raise the resulting child.
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:54 pm
Honestly, I think that aborting because your fetus has down syndrome would be equally as horrible as aborting for a deformed limb or cleft palate, and for the same reasons you've mentioned.
As far as quality of life, people I've seen with down syndrome always seem to me to be, excuse the expression, tard happy most of the time. From our perspective, certainly their lives seem bad. But who are you to judge how they would feel about their lives? Which is really why I've always felt that the quality of life argument is a bunch of bull, because people can live through and be happy through quite a lot that seems terrible from the middle-class perspective, and we shouldn't have the right to decide whether the "quality of life" of an unborn child is going to be high enough to make them worthy of life, or not.
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:07 am
I.Am Honestly, I think that aborting because your fetus has down syndrome would be equally as horrible as aborting for a deformed limb or cleft palate, and for the same reasons you've mentioned. As far as quality of life, people I've seen with down syndrome always seem to me to be, excuse the expression, tard happy most of the time. From our perspective, certainly their lives seem bad. But who are you to judge how they would feel about their lives? Which is really why I've always felt that the quality of life argument is a bunch of bull, because people can live through and be happy through quite a lot that seems terrible from the middle-class perspective, and we shouldn't have the right to decide whether the "quality of life" of an unborn child is going to be high enough to make them worthy of life, or not. I understand where you are coming from, but I really would not be comfortable raising a child with Downs Syndrome, nor giving birth to one (so much so that I plan to be sterilized before I reach 35 - or whenever it is - when the chances of it raise very quickly). I hope to never have a pregnancy when the unborn human is diagnosed with such, but I really can't see myself keeping such a pregnancy. I totally have a ton of respect for people who raise Downs Syndrome children (both those who keep pregnancies and especially people who adopt such kids). But, to me, I feel it would be too much to handle.
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:19 am
When it comes to DS. I have more respect for the person suffering then the care taker. Especially when they have enough intelligence to know they have down syndrome. Such as my second cousin. 25 years old with the mind of a 7 year old. At times he's as happy as can be, other times he gets really depressed because he "hates being retarded" as he's so often said. And the fact that I know there are so many people who see it as a lower quality of life (pretty much every choicer in here.) only pushes my respect for them even higher.
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:40 am
WatersMoon110 lymelady Nothing I can find says that cleft palate is deadly or negatively affects your mental capacity. I've been searching for awhile. It might, though, I'm not denying that. I'm just not finding it. Both ShadowIce and I recall hearing about a cleft palate sometimes extending into the brain, but I can't find anything on this (I swear that it is a really rare, very severe, condition - and that I saw an article or news program about a baby who died from this a few years ago - but I find nothing...). However I found a few articles about cleft palate and some brain abnormalities: here and here (might be about the same study) Also, there was some sort of study done on mice: hereUsually (it looks like), cleft palate is fixable and only results in looking different and trouble speaking (without corrective surgery). It doesn't make sense that Cleft Palatte would extend to the brain, it's the failure of the Palatine process of the maxilla to fuse, not just a randomly placed blackhole in your head. Unless there's something that I'm missing in understanding Cleft Palatte itself.
Problems can occur with feeding them though. My cousin Cheryl who was born with Cleft Palatte had to eat with a tube down her throat for the first 6 months of her life (I'm guesstimating I was only like 6 or 7 when she was born so it could have been a year or 3 months time feels a lot different when you're younger. I just remember my Grandmama coming back from a visit and explaining it to me.) but now she's 100% fine (except for a severe allergy to peanuts and the fact she is constantly making up songs and singing to them =P), she doesn't even have a speech problem. Obviously she had surgery to fix it.
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:43 am
Beware the Jabberwock It doesn't make sense that Cleft Palatte would extend to the brain, it's the failure of the Palatine process of the maxilla to fuse, not just a randomly placed blackhole in your head. Unless there's something that I'm missing in understanding Cleft Palatte itself. We might both be mistaken, but it seems odd that both of us sort of recall that, doesn't it? I don't really know much about cleft palate, and I wouldn't personally abort for such a thing (especially not after viability). Beware the Jabberwock Problems can occur with feeding them though. My cousin Cheryl who was born with Cleft Palatte had to eat with a tube down her throat for the first 6 months of her life (I'm guesstimating I was only like 6 or 7 when she was born so it could have been a year or 3 months time feels a lot different when you're younger. I just remember my Grandmama coming back from a visit and explaining it to me.) but now she's 100% fine (except for a severe allergy to peanuts and the fact she is constantly making up songs and singing to them =P), she doesn't even have a speech problem. Obviously she had surgery to fix it. That's really great for her! I'm so glad that they fixed it well! Peanut allergies are really scary. I'm really glad that all products that even might have been made in the same factory as peanuts are marked now, to help protect people like your cousin!
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:14 pm
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock It doesn't make sense that Cleft Palatte would extend to the brain, it's the failure of the Palatine process of the maxilla to fuse, not just a randomly placed blackhole in your head. Unless there's something that I'm missing in understanding Cleft Palatte itself. We might both be mistaken, but it seems odd that both of us sort of recall that, doesn't it? I don't really know much about cleft palate, and I wouldn't personally abort for such a thing (especially not after viability). Beware the Jabberwock Problems can occur with feeding them though. My cousin Cheryl who was born with Cleft Palatte had to eat with a tube down her throat for the first 6 months of her life (I'm guesstimating I was only like 6 or 7 when she was born so it could have been a year or 3 months time feels a lot different when you're younger. I just remember my Grandmama coming back from a visit and explaining it to me.) but now she's 100% fine (except for a severe allergy to peanuts and the fact she is constantly making up songs and singing to them =P), she doesn't even have a speech problem. Obviously she had surgery to fix it. That's really great for her! I'm so glad that they fixed it well! Peanut allergies are really scary. I'm really glad that all products that even might have been made in the same factory as peanuts are marked now, to help protect people like your cousin! I think and it was mentioned before that it may kind of be the other way around. Where brain problems cause cleft palate. I know that my Aunt and Uncle were both tested for neurological disorders (their first child developed with no brain, I don't remember what the condition is called though, Cheryl had cleft palate when she was born and there was another pregnancy that was miscarried, though they also had 2 sons that are perfectly healthy) and it was found that they both had family history of neurological problems or something like that, basically they were people who should never have had kids together. So it may be that there's a problem with a brain which can cause Cleft Palate and not that Cleft Palate can cause problems with the brain.
I'm no expert of course, but it just doesn't make sense to me that bone fusion would effect the brain. I mean the skull isn't fully fused until about 2 years of age and that doesn't directly effect the brain, why would your Palatine Process be any different?
Also, I'm glad there are peanut free options for her as well. I'm not sure if she's as allergic anymore as she used to be, they live in Ontario so I don't get to see those cousins that often. I really hope I never have a child with a peanut allergy! I love peanut butter.
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