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 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:22 am
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SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph xLady Tsukiyox No. Lucifer refers to a Babylonian King not Ha-Satan. Ha-Satan is a servant of God. Since he has no free will he does God's will. Which is to test us. I don't know about that one. That's why he also has to spend his time being punished for not having free will and doing what God said? If Satan is evil and God controls Satan... If A is B and B is C... Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. God made a bet with Satan, but God in deed already knew beforehand how Job would react to the situation. So the next question to be asked would be, "If God knew how Job would react, then what was the point of allowing Satan to do those things?" The lesson he's teaching is that whether he had made the bet or not, life is full of suffering either great or small. You simply can not escape life without suffering. God did not actively "do" those things to Job. He simply "allowed" Satan to do them. But that's already the set job for Satan, which is to be the the great deceiver, a test of our faith and to knock us off the path. That's what he does and always have done. Take the holocaust for example. its on subject that most people jump on by saying "how could god ALLOW such a tragedy?" but the blame can not be brought on god because the reason the halaocaust happened was because the actions of MAN. the world is a crap hole because mankind has made it that way. if god jumped in every time we cried and whimpered from stubbing our toe or getting burned by a flame, what would we learn? what happened to Job was horrible and to most, horrific. But we all react to suffering differently. There's also one last thing to keep in mind, God does not allow to happen to each individual MORE than they can individually handle, even if it seems horrific. Some can tolerate more pain then others. Job clearly in this case was able to handle the situation. I personally wouldn't be able to handle what he went through, but he simply could. I still don't think that's the case. Free will is free will. We are not particles. While our actions can be estimated, they can't truly be known. It's obvious that a virtuous person will do virtuous things, but I don't think that God knows how, when or why until it happens- Sure, knowing what we think is one thing, but knowing our actions is different. And by that logic, the people in the holocaust were ready and able to accept death as some sort of "test" of will? If you believe we have free will, that's fine. I can't argue how people feel. But if I were to bring up scriptures basing this on christian logic, then no we don't have free will. Since I don't know you personally, I don't know your taking on god of if your christian so forgive my responses if they seem off. But there are scriptures stating the nature of God. He knows past present and future. There is no time for him. He is omnipresent and he's omniscient. That is his nature. I'm not too sure what you meant by a test of will. Then again...oh wait I think I see what your saying. yes, life is a test of faith and also a test of will (choice of action) because we do have the power of choice, just not completely. in the case of the holocaust, that event was determined by the individuals of each and every German and or individual that helped the event to occur. Hitler was merely a catalyst for the event. all he needed was followers to make it happen. thus, god allowed it yes, did he take part in making it happen? no because that would take out our "limited will" of choice of action. was it a test of will or action? there's nothing i can say to prove yes or no. that is entirely up to god. i can't personally sit here and tell you for sure because I'm simply not god. what i can tell you is that, what the bible states, he loves everyone. there is no hate. he's already forgiven the people who caused the event to occur because he has everlasting loving kindness and understanding.
It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it.
I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either? |
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:49 pm
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divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph xLady Tsukiyox No. Lucifer refers to a Babylonian King not Ha-Satan. Ha-Satan is a servant of God. Since he has no free will he does God's will. Which is to test us. I don't know about that one. That's why he also has to spend his time being punished for not having free will and doing what God said? If Satan is evil and God controls Satan... If A is B and B is C... Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. God made a bet with Satan, but God in deed already knew beforehand how Job would react to the situation. So the next question to be asked would be, "If God knew how Job would react, then what was the point of allowing Satan to do those things?" The lesson he's teaching is that whether he had made the bet or not, life is full of suffering either great or small. You simply can not escape life without suffering. God did not actively "do" those things to Job. He simply "allowed" Satan to do them. But that's already the set job for Satan, which is to be the the great deceiver, a test of our faith and to knock us off the path. That's what he does and always have done. Take the holocaust for example. its on subject that most people jump on by saying "how could god ALLOW such a tragedy?" but the blame can not be brought on god because the reason the halaocaust happened was because the actions of MAN. the world is a crap hole because mankind has made it that way. if god jumped in every time we cried and whimpered from stubbing our toe or getting burned by a flame, what would we learn? what happened to Job was horrible and to most, horrific. But we all react to suffering differently. There's also one last thing to keep in mind, God does not allow to happen to each individual MORE than they can individually handle, even if it seems horrific. Some can tolerate more pain then others. Job clearly in this case was able to handle the situation. I personally wouldn't be able to handle what he went through, but he simply could. I still don't think that's the case. Free will is free will. We are not particles. While our actions can be estimated, they can't truly be known. It's obvious that a virtuous person will do virtuous things, but I don't think that God knows how, when or why until it happens- Sure, knowing what we think is one thing, but knowing our actions is different. And by that logic, the people in the holocaust were ready and able to accept death as some sort of "test" of will? If you believe we have free will, that's fine. I can't argue how people feel. But if I were to bring up scriptures basing this on christian logic, then no we don't have free will. Since I don't know you personally, I don't know your taking on god of if your christian so forgive my responses if they seem off. But there are scriptures stating the nature of God. He knows past present and future. There is no time for him. He is omnipresent and he's omniscient. That is his nature. I'm not too sure what you meant by a test of will. Then again...oh wait I think I see what your saying. yes, life is a test of faith and also a test of will (choice of action) because we do have the power of choice, just not completely. in the case of the holocaust, that event was determined by the individuals of each and every German and or individual that helped the event to occur. Hitler was merely a catalyst for the event. all he needed was followers to make it happen. thus, god allowed it yes, did he take part in making it happen? no because that would take out our "limited will" of choice of action. was it a test of will or action? there's nothing i can say to prove yes or no. that is entirely up to god. i can't personally sit here and tell you for sure because I'm simply not god. what i can tell you is that, what the bible states, he loves everyone. there is no hate. he's already forgiven the people who caused the event to occur because he has everlasting loving kindness and understanding. It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it. I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either?
that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to.
Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct?
Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life:
1) We did not decide to be born.
2) We did not decide to be created.
3) We did not decide when to be born.
4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however...
we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end.
5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked.
however we can decide to get tattoos
Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life?
If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible.
So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do.
However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:00 am
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SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos God made a bet with Satan, but God in deed already knew beforehand how Job would react to the situation. So the next question to be asked would be, "If God knew how Job would react, then what was the point of allowing Satan to do those things?" The lesson he's teaching is that whether he had made the bet or not, life is full of suffering either great or small. You simply can not escape life without suffering. God did not actively "do" those things to Job. He simply "allowed" Satan to do them. But that's already the set job for Satan, which is to be the the great deceiver, a test of our faith and to knock us off the path. That's what he does and always have done. Take the holocaust for example. its on subject that most people jump on by saying "how could god ALLOW such a tragedy?" but the blame can not be brought on god because the reason the halaocaust happened was because the actions of MAN. the world is a crap hole because mankind has made it that way. if god jumped in every time we cried and whimpered from stubbing our toe or getting burned by a flame, what would we learn? what happened to Job was horrible and to most, horrific. But we all react to suffering differently. There's also one last thing to keep in mind, God does not allow to happen to each individual MORE than they can individually handle, even if it seems horrific. Some can tolerate more pain then others. Job clearly in this case was able to handle the situation. I personally wouldn't be able to handle what he went through, but he simply could. I still don't think that's the case. Free will is free will. We are not particles. While our actions can be estimated, they can't truly be known. It's obvious that a virtuous person will do virtuous things, but I don't think that God knows how, when or why until it happens- Sure, knowing what we think is one thing, but knowing our actions is different. And by that logic, the people in the holocaust were ready and able to accept death as some sort of "test" of will? If you believe we have free will, that's fine. I can't argue how people feel. But if I were to bring up scriptures basing this on christian logic, then no we don't have free will. Since I don't know you personally, I don't know your taking on god of if your christian so forgive my responses if they seem off. But there are scriptures stating the nature of God. He knows past present and future. There is no time for him. He is omnipresent and he's omniscient. That is his nature. I'm not too sure what you meant by a test of will. Then again...oh wait I think I see what your saying. yes, life is a test of faith and also a test of will (choice of action) because we do have the power of choice, just not completely. in the case of the holocaust, that event was determined by the individuals of each and every German and or individual that helped the event to occur. Hitler was merely a catalyst for the event. all he needed was followers to make it happen. thus, god allowed it yes, did he take part in making it happen? no because that would take out our "limited will" of choice of action. was it a test of will or action? there's nothing i can say to prove yes or no. that is entirely up to god. i can't personally sit here and tell you for sure because I'm simply not god. what i can tell you is that, what the bible states, he loves everyone. there is no hate. he's already forgiven the people who caused the event to occur because he has everlasting loving kindness and understanding. It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it. I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either? that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to. Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct? Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life: 1) We did not decide to be born. 2) We did not decide to be created. 3) We did not decide when to be born. 4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however... we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end. 5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked. however we can decide to get tattoos Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life? If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible. So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do. However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing.
You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge.
And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:26 pm
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divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos God made a bet with Satan, but God in deed already knew beforehand how Job would react to the situation. So the next question to be asked would be, "If God knew how Job would react, then what was the point of allowing Satan to do those things?" The lesson he's teaching is that whether he had made the bet or not, life is full of suffering either great or small. You simply can not escape life without suffering. God did not actively "do" those things to Job. He simply "allowed" Satan to do them. But that's already the set job for Satan, which is to be the the great deceiver, a test of our faith and to knock us off the path. That's what he does and always have done. Take the holocaust for example. its on subject that most people jump on by saying "how could god ALLOW such a tragedy?" but the blame can not be brought on god because the reason the halaocaust happened was because the actions of MAN. the world is a crap hole because mankind has made it that way. if god jumped in every time we cried and whimpered from stubbing our toe or getting burned by a flame, what would we learn? what happened to Job was horrible and to most, horrific. But we all react to suffering differently. There's also one last thing to keep in mind, God does not allow to happen to each individual MORE than they can individually handle, even if it seems horrific. Some can tolerate more pain then others. Job clearly in this case was able to handle the situation. I personally wouldn't be able to handle what he went through, but he simply could. I still don't think that's the case. Free will is free will. We are not particles. While our actions can be estimated, they can't truly be known. It's obvious that a virtuous person will do virtuous things, but I don't think that God knows how, when or why until it happens- Sure, knowing what we think is one thing, but knowing our actions is different. And by that logic, the people in the holocaust were ready and able to accept death as some sort of "test" of will? If you believe we have free will, that's fine. I can't argue how people feel. But if I were to bring up scriptures basing this on christian logic, then no we don't have free will. Since I don't know you personally, I don't know your taking on god of if your christian so forgive my responses if they seem off. But there are scriptures stating the nature of God. He knows past present and future. There is no time for him. He is omnipresent and he's omniscient. That is his nature. I'm not too sure what you meant by a test of will. Then again...oh wait I think I see what your saying. yes, life is a test of faith and also a test of will (choice of action) because we do have the power of choice, just not completely. in the case of the holocaust, that event was determined by the individuals of each and every German and or individual that helped the event to occur. Hitler was merely a catalyst for the event. all he needed was followers to make it happen. thus, god allowed it yes, did he take part in making it happen? no because that would take out our "limited will" of choice of action. was it a test of will or action? there's nothing i can say to prove yes or no. that is entirely up to god. i can't personally sit here and tell you for sure because I'm simply not god. what i can tell you is that, what the bible states, he loves everyone. there is no hate. he's already forgiven the people who caused the event to occur because he has everlasting loving kindness and understanding. It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it. I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either? that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to. Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct? Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life: 1) We did not decide to be born. 2) We did not decide to be created. 3) We did not decide when to be born. 4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however... we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end. 5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked. however we can decide to get tattoos Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life? If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible. So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do. However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing. You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge. And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum.
honestly? i can't blame you for feeling that way. its a concept of Christianity that most Christians (in general) can not swallow or want to personally accept. But God created beings for his glory and to be a path of light to others. there are scriptures stating that very same thing. he made us with ability to make choices, but not all choices are ours. knowing the outcome of the choices doesnt take away from any goal especially ours. as was stated before, life is a test of faith and choice. THAT is the goal......for us. its not god's personal goal for himself. its a goal he has set for us.
yes, god made man in the image of himself. but he didnt get mad at adam and eve because they gained the same knowledge of good and evil like god did......he already KNEW they were going to eat the fruit. it was MEANT to happen. "there is a time for a peace and a time for war" and everything has a purpose "even the wicked for the day of evil".
classic saying says the same thing "a place for everything and everything in its place". the reason god was mad was because adam and even specifically disobeyed. parents do the same thing with their kids. parents get mad when their kids are disobedient. its the same concept.
he didnt create us to be mindless puppets. he has his reasons and he gave them. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:43 am
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divineseraph xLady Tsukiyox lordstar Zerotheslayer You know, Job followed God and he went through a lot. He lost his family, his wealth, was plagued with disease (technically, if not literally)...he was in a lot of pain, and people kept trying to tell him to give up on God and just die, but he wouldn't. Unless you're the most unfortunate living human being in the world, which I doubt, there's always going to be someone worse off than you...and maybe that person is a little stronger. But think about this. You're not denying God's existence either. If you reject Him, blame everything on Him, get upset because He hasn't saved you yet, then don't you think your suffering is going to be even greater when it comes the time for you to either go to Heaven or face the flames (I don't believe in an ever burning hell, but I believe that the lost will be burned up and cease to exist.)? You know, God has a greater reward than any rewards you could possibly find on Earth. Can you not endure the suffering on Earth and look forward to that greater reward, or will you give it all up and submit yourself to suffering until an eternal death? God made a bet with Lucifer Job suffered so that God could prove a point/win a bet wtf No. Lucifer refers to a Babylonian King not Ha-Satan. Ha-Satan is a servant of God. Since he has no free will he does God's will. Which is to test us. I don't know about that one. That's why he also has to spend his time being punished for not having free will and doing what God said? If Satan is evil and God controls Satan... If A is B and B is C... Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:07 pm
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SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos If you believe we have free will, that's fine. I can't argue how people feel. But if I were to bring up scriptures basing this on christian logic, then no we don't have free will. Since I don't know you personally, I don't know your taking on god of if your christian so forgive my responses if they seem off. But there are scriptures stating the nature of God. He knows past present and future. There is no time for him. He is omnipresent and he's omniscient. That is his nature. I'm not too sure what you meant by a test of will. Then again...oh wait I think I see what your saying. yes, life is a test of faith and also a test of will (choice of action) because we do have the power of choice, just not completely. in the case of the holocaust, that event was determined by the individuals of each and every German and or individual that helped the event to occur. Hitler was merely a catalyst for the event. all he needed was followers to make it happen. thus, god allowed it yes, did he take part in making it happen? no because that would take out our "limited will" of choice of action. was it a test of will or action? there's nothing i can say to prove yes or no. that is entirely up to god. i can't personally sit here and tell you for sure because I'm simply not god. what i can tell you is that, what the bible states, he loves everyone. there is no hate. he's already forgiven the people who caused the event to occur because he has everlasting loving kindness and understanding. It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it. I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either? that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to. Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct? Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life: 1) We did not decide to be born. 2) We did not decide to be created. 3) We did not decide when to be born. 4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however... we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end. 5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked. however we can decide to get tattoos Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life? If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible. So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do. However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing. You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge. And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum. honestly? i can't blame you for feeling that way. its a concept of Christianity that most Christians (in general) can not swallow or want to personally accept. But God created beings for his glory and to be a path of light to others. there are scriptures stating that very same thing. he made us with ability to make choices, but not all choices are ours. knowing the outcome of the choices doesnt take away from any goal especially ours. as was stated before, life is a test of faith and choice. THAT is the goal...... for us. its not god's personal goal for himself. its a goal he has set for us. yes, god made man in the image of himself. but he didnt get mad at adam and eve because they gained the same knowledge of good and evil like god did......he already KNEW they were going to eat the fruit. it was MEANT to happen. "there is a time for a peace and a time for war" and everything has a purpose "even the wicked for the day of evil". classic saying says the same thing "a place for everything and everything in its place". the reason god was mad was because adam and even specifically disobeyed. parents do the same thing with their kids. parents get mad when their kids are disobedient. its the same concept. he didnt create us to be mindless puppets. he has his reasons and he gave them.
But if God knows the choices we will make, then there no such thing as choice. To god, then, the future would be the present, and what you will do five minutes or years from now will be no more changable than what you did yesterday as of now. Why create itif he could have, in one second, simply knew the outcome, said "Well, that was neat" and moved on. It's like seeing a photograph and then choosing to have a five-hour viewing of it. It doesn't make sense, it does not use divine logic, or even an idiot's logic. What is a test if the teacher has already graded you and knows the answers you will pick?
If he knew, then he either planned it or his design was flawed. If it's the first, he has no reason to be angry- That was his ******** plan. If they had no choice in the matter as they were pre-bound to do it, that makes God either a sadistic ******** or mentally unstable. I reject both of those ideas.
so you're saying that if you KNOW for a FACT, as in, not just have a hunch, but you've seen the future and KNOW your child will do something bad, that you will still let them do it and punish them for it later? That's the difference with parenting- Sometimes you have a hunch that your kid will get into the cookies. But if you know he will because you've seen the future and know that he is pre-ordained to take the cookies, you have two logical options. Hide the cookies so he can't take them, or don't get pissed off when what must happen does happen. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:12 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:32 pm
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divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph It's either all or nothing- We either CAN make choices without being pre-programmed by God or Time, or we CAN'T, and we are determined to run our course like complicated railroads. I submit to you that if we ARE determined, and God always knew everything we would ever do, what was his point in our creation? Tests? A sick joke? How about adam and eve- If he KNEW they were going to eat the fruit and that satan would make them do it, why did he bother putting them near it in the first place? It doesn't work with reason or logic for God to place a mindless, hurtful system in place simply for the sake of doing it. I do not believe that God acts, per se, on the universe. God may know the past and the present and may know all things at once. But in this case, I would assume a potentiality- He understands our possible actions. If God always knew what would happen, why would he do it? Wouldn't that mean he would have no free will either? that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to. Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct? Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life: 1) We did not decide to be born. 2) We did not decide to be created. 3) We did not decide when to be born. 4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however... we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end. 5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked. however we can decide to get tattoos Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life? If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible. So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do. However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing. You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge. And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum. honestly? i can't blame you for feeling that way. its a concept of Christianity that most Christians (in general) can not swallow or want to personally accept. But God created beings for his glory and to be a path of light to others. there are scriptures stating that very same thing. he made us with ability to make choices, but not all choices are ours. knowing the outcome of the choices doesnt take away from any goal especially ours. as was stated before, life is a test of faith and choice. THAT is the goal...... for us. its not god's personal goal for himself. its a goal he has set for us. yes, god made man in the image of himself. but he didnt get mad at adam and eve because they gained the same knowledge of good and evil like god did......he already KNEW they were going to eat the fruit. it was MEANT to happen. "there is a time for a peace and a time for war" and everything has a purpose "even the wicked for the day of evil". classic saying says the same thing "a place for everything and everything in its place". the reason god was mad was because adam and even specifically disobeyed. parents do the same thing with their kids. parents get mad when their kids are disobedient. its the same concept. he didnt create us to be mindless puppets. he has his reasons and he gave them. But if God knows the choices we will make, then there no such thing as choice. To god, then, the future would be the present, and what you will do five minutes or years from now will be no more changable than what you did yesterday as of now. Why create itif he could have, in one second, simply knew the outcome, said "Well, that was neat" and moved on. It's like seeing a photograph and then choosing to have a five-hour viewing of it. It doesn't make sense, it does not use divine logic, or even an idiot's logic. What is a test if the teacher has already graded you and knows the answers you will pick? If he knew, then he either planned it or his design was flawed. If it's the first, he has no reason to be angry- That was his ******** plan. If they had no choice in the matter as they were pre-bound to do it, that makes God either a sadistic ******** or mentally unstable. I reject both of those ideas. so you're saying that if you KNOW for a FACT, as in, not just have a hunch, but you've seen the future and KNOW your child will do something bad, that you will still let them do it and punish them for it later? That's the difference with parenting- Sometimes you have a hunch that your kid will get into the cookies. But if you know he will because you've seen the future and know that he is pre-ordained to take the cookies, you have two logical options. Hide the cookies so he can't take them, or don't get pissed off when what must happen does happen.
okay well let me ask you this then. just for the sake of discussing the will of choice.
Scenario: You have the choice of picking a red pen vs picking a blue pen. You KNOW ahead of time that the red pin will put out red ink and the blue pen will put out blue ink.
In that type of case scenario, also using that example in relation to the points I've been trying to explain.......if you knew ahead of time of what the pen's will give you as an outcome...did you still have a choice of which pen to choose?
The same thing is with God here. He knows exactly what we will do before we even make the decision. But does he make the decision for us? Nope. If we couldn't make ANY type of decision of ANY kind and he put COMPLETE control over us...only then would I question it like you do by saying "whats the point of creating something if it has no choice?".
But the fact of the ......okay maybe not "fact" because I can't prove God exists, but the "logic" of the matter is that God has given us a "set" amount of choices that we can make on our own. All of which those choices have a purpose, each with its own lesson, good or bad. He gives a few reasoning in the bible for why he created mankind, but he doesn't elaborate very much on it. I can tell you the reasons he gave in the bible, but I ultimately can't sit and tell you everything God is thinking.
To answer your question in the first sentence of your statement, its one thing to know the outcome of an event, but to EXPERIENCE the event is a completely different thing. Have you ever watched the movie The Watchmen? If you haven't well there's a character in the movie/comic book by the name of Dr.Manhatten. He has the ability to see the future and Silk Spectre would ask him "why are you getting made at *such and such event* if you already know what happens?" Its the same thing....there is nothing more palpable then the experience of an event.
Its like....someone telling me every detail of gruesome moment of what its like getting raped, but I will never truly understand or know what its like unless I was ACTUALLY raped.
God is not being sadistic. He sent is one and only son (however more technically *one* of himself) to earth to live with mankind. Jesus suffered insensible amounts of ridicule and beatings and torture and utter crap and EXPERIENCED what it was like living like mankind does. He knows our pain. He knows what we're going through, but he also knows whats "best" for us because he knows our future.
One thing I or anyone else will ever be able to tell you is when God DOES make an active intervening of some kind. The only thing we know he actively does is the weather. That's an act of God. Beyond that we don't know when he intervenes in our life.
The point I'm making is that, he didn't create us just for his glory, the life he gave us is a test FOR US. Whether he knows the answers or not WE don't know the answers. Its a learning process for us and its a test of faith.
Let me add one more point here. It goes in relation to whats the point of God creating us if we are either damned for heaven or for hell.
Scenario 2: Lets say you have a million dollars and you had NO CHOICE but to give it to person A or person B. You have the power know beforehand what type of person A and person B are like. You know before hand what both will do with the money. person A you know (beforehand) will live a life as a good person and do what they can to help others and to spend the money wisely, supporting themself, but also trying to enjoy life. person B you know (beforehand) will take the money and spend it all on himself, treats others horribly and will waste his life away.
which person will you give it to? the person who will make the most of it or the person who will waste it all away?
In that same type of logic, this is the best way I can explain to why God pre-ordains salvation to specific individuals. He knows us before he even creates us. He knows what we will do with the salvation he gives us. In THAT sense.....do you honestly think he would give it to individuals that will do nothing with it? What would be the point. But Now someone would interject "well if he knows that if he gave it to a person that would waste it away, then whats the point of creating" because...
Quote: Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Even evil has a purpose. Whether they are damned or not. EVERYTHING has a purpose. I can't think of any better way to explain that to you. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:23 pm
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SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos that is not essentially true. for instance, the candy im eating right now i have rightfully DECIDED to eat. God has not intervened and forced me to eat the candy. I am eating it purely out of natural desire to. Knowing what we're going to do, and forcing us to do something are two different things correct? Let me put it this way, here is a short list of things we DID NOT decide in our life: 1) We did not decide to be born. 2) We did not decide to be created. 3) We did not decide when to be born. 4) We do not decide our specific chosen time of death...however... we can decide to shorten our life before it is meant to end. 5) We did not decide to have a body full of skin that is purely unmarked. however we can decide to get tattoos Do you see what I'm getting at now? God has pre-ordained us for heaven or hell, but he does not force us to love him or hate him. We have choices in life....and yes we even have the choice of what sins we will do. We can decide to live and let live or kill or murder. Life is full of choices that God does not force us to make. The life God gave us is a test of faith and yes a test of choice. Do we decide to repent for our sins or do we decide to be stubborn and sway from the path of living a godly/christian life? If you wish I can post verses that states God purpose for us. If you still want to believe that God has a limit in what he does. That's fine. It would be stupid of me to sit here and to constantly try to tell you otherwise since you clearly see things differently than me. But I CAN answer your questions though as best as possible. So if you wish me to post verses, I will gladly do so, but only if you wish me to. I'm trying my best not to force my views because sometimes I have come off that way before to people and that's not what I'm trying to do. However I do have an interesting question for you. Since you personally now know what it is like to exist...not just physically on earth, but mentally....how would you feel if you were not to exist anymore? No body no spirit...just nothing. No conscious state of mind, just emptiness. And I'm not asking this in any relation to god. Its purely just a question of personal state of mind and opinion on how you feel about existing. You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge. And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum. honestly? i can't blame you for feeling that way. its a concept of Christianity that most Christians (in general) can not swallow or want to personally accept. But God created beings for his glory and to be a path of light to others. there are scriptures stating that very same thing. he made us with ability to make choices, but not all choices are ours. knowing the outcome of the choices doesnt take away from any goal especially ours. as was stated before, life is a test of faith and choice. THAT is the goal...... for us. its not god's personal goal for himself. its a goal he has set for us. yes, god made man in the image of himself. but he didnt get mad at adam and eve because they gained the same knowledge of good and evil like god did......he already KNEW they were going to eat the fruit. it was MEANT to happen. "there is a time for a peace and a time for war" and everything has a purpose "even the wicked for the day of evil". classic saying says the same thing "a place for everything and everything in its place". the reason god was mad was because adam and even specifically disobeyed. parents do the same thing with their kids. parents get mad when their kids are disobedient. its the same concept. he didnt create us to be mindless puppets. he has his reasons and he gave them. But if God knows the choices we will make, then there no such thing as choice. To god, then, the future would be the present, and what you will do five minutes or years from now will be no more changable than what you did yesterday as of now. Why create itif he could have, in one second, simply knew the outcome, said "Well, that was neat" and moved on. It's like seeing a photograph and then choosing to have a five-hour viewing of it. It doesn't make sense, it does not use divine logic, or even an idiot's logic. What is a test if the teacher has already graded you and knows the answers you will pick? If he knew, then he either planned it or his design was flawed. If it's the first, he has no reason to be angry- That was his ******** plan. If they had no choice in the matter as they were pre-bound to do it, that makes God either a sadistic ******** or mentally unstable. I reject both of those ideas. so you're saying that if you KNOW for a FACT, as in, not just have a hunch, but you've seen the future and KNOW your child will do something bad, that you will still let them do it and punish them for it later? That's the difference with parenting- Sometimes you have a hunch that your kid will get into the cookies. But if you know he will because you've seen the future and know that he is pre-ordained to take the cookies, you have two logical options. Hide the cookies so he can't take them, or don't get pissed off when what must happen does happen. okay well let me ask you this then. just for the sake of discussing the will of choice. Scenario: You have the choice of picking a red pen vs picking a blue pen. You KNOW ahead of time that the red pin will put out red ink and the blue pen will put out blue ink. In that type of case scenario, also using that example in relation to the points I've been trying to explain.......if you knew ahead of time of what the pen's will give you as an outcome...did you still have a choice of which pen to choose? The same thing is with God here. He knows exactly what we will do before we even make the decision. But does he make the decision for us? Nope. If we couldn't make ANY type of decision of ANY kind and he put COMPLETE control over us...only then would I question it like you do by saying "whats the point of creating something if it has no choice?". But the fact of the ......okay maybe not "fact" because I can't prove God exists, but the "logic" of the matter is that God has given us a "set" amount of choices that we can make on our own. All of which those choices have a purpose, each with its own lesson, good or bad. He gives a few reasoning in the bible for why he created mankind, but he doesn't elaborate very much on it. I can tell you the reasons he gave in the bible, but I ultimately can't sit and tell you everything God is thinking. To answer your question in the first sentence of your statement, its one thing to know the outcome of an event, but to EXPERIENCE the event is a completely different thing. Have you ever watched the movie The Watchmen? If you haven't well there's a character in the movie/comic book by the name of Dr.Manhatten. He has the ability to see the future and Silk Spectre would ask him "why are you getting made at *such and such event* if you already know what happens?" Its the same thing....there is nothing more palpable then the experience of an event. Its like....someone telling me every detail of gruesome moment of what its like getting raped, but I will never truly understand or know what its like unless I was ACTUALLY raped. God is not being sadistic. He sent is one and only son (however more technically *one* of himself) to earth to live with mankind. Jesus suffered insensible amounts of ridicule and beatings and torture and utter crap and EXPERIENCED what it was like living like mankind does. He knows our pain. He knows what we're going through, but he also knows whats "best" for us because he knows our future. One thing I or anyone else will ever be able to tell you is when God DOES make an active intervening of some kind. The only thing we know he actively does is the weather. That's an act of God. Beyond that we don't know when he intervenes in our life. The point I'm making is that, he didn't create us just for his glory, the life he gave us is a test FOR US. Whether he knows the answers or not WE don't know the answers. Its a learning process for us and its a test of faith. Let me add one more point here. It goes in relation to whats the point of God creating us if we are either damned for heaven or for hell. Scenario 2: Lets say you have a million dollars and you had NO CHOICE but to give it to person A or person B. You have the power know beforehand what type of person A and person B are like. You know before hand what both will do with the money. person A you know (beforehand) will live a life as a good person and do what they can to help others and to spend the money wisely, supporting themself, but also trying to enjoy life. person B you know (beforehand) will take the money and spend it all on himself, treats others horribly and will waste his life away. which person will you give it to? the person who will make the most of it or the person who will waste it all away? In that same type of logic, this is the best way I can explain to why God pre-ordains salvation to specific individuals. He knows us before he even creates us. He knows what we will do with the salvation he gives us. In THAT sense.....do you honestly think he would give it to individuals that will do nothing with it? What would be the point. But Now someone would interject "well if he knows that if he gave it to a person that would waste it away, then whats the point of creating" because... Quote: Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Even evil has a purpose. Whether they are damned or not. EVERYTHING has a purpose. I can't think of any better way to explain that to you.
We are not pens, though. We do more than spurt out ink onto a page, and we do so of our own free will. Give the pens the ability to reason and create on their own and we are back to the same problem. Also, when you use a pen, YOU control it. WE control ourselves. Unless you say that we don't, in which case God controls us and has no reason to be angry when we do what we are forced to. We come full circle in this argument.
If God knows, then we must have no choice. If you MUST do something, you have no choice in the matter. If God knows the absolute future, then your actions are not in a line, but are a simple fact and there can be no choice or decision involved.
But God isn't limited by human experience- He's supposed to be omnipotent and simply KNOW, right? So why bother with doing when he already has? Unless, again, he is either unable to know fully, or he is bound by his own rules.
But why did he send his son? And if he knew we would reject it, why bother? Why, why why? Your arguments are failing because they pigeonhole God as much as they do Man. Because he had to? Because it was pre-ordained by him, as himself, to himself, because he was pre-ordained to pre-ordain it?
Weather is determined by atmospheric events relating to rotation, gravitation, condensation and temperature. I believe ALL things are filled with divine essence, so Weather is technically god-touched, but there's no bearded man on a cloud hurling lightning on us.
It's not a test if he already knows. Let's try this. I ask you a question, I know your answer before you say it. What's the point in asking, and what's the point in grading you based on what I already know what you will say?
And what was this money scenario? How the ******** do YOU know what someone will do? Sure, some people are dicks. But that is a choice they make to live like dicks- Mostly to get ahead and gain power and wealth. That's not just because they are inherently bad, forever and ever under God's decree. It's because we live in a system where bad deeds can be rewarded in cash. I agree, bad people deserve hell. But they aren't doomed from the uterus on- They have to decide what they will do.
How about this- There's an arrogant kid and a polite but wierd kid. Now, the first one will either use said million dollars to buy a mansion and hire immigrant servants to exploit, or he may donate to charity in his name. The polite kid may waste it on manga and mountain dew and WoW subscriptions, or he may use it to feed the hungry. It's up to them. Which do you give it to? Can you pick one and toss them into hell or heaven before they even act, or even feel right putting their names down on the guest list?
No s**t, everything has a purpose and a place. But that doesn't mean that things are static or determined. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:44 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:37 pm
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divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph SaintChaos divineseraph You're saying that no matter what some people do, they are doomed to hell? God is a b*****d, then. The reason God made man is to have thinking, choice-making beings. Knowing the outcomes of those choices takes away from that goal, and eliminates the point. When living things gained sentience, or even choice, we became like God because of our soul- Our soul is made of what God is made of. Genesis remarked that God was pissed about the Adam and Eve situation because we became like God from eating the fruit of knowledge. And that is not possible- Cogito Ergo Sum. honestly? i can't blame you for feeling that way. its a concept of Christianity that most Christians (in general) can not swallow or want to personally accept. But God created beings for his glory and to be a path of light to others. there are scriptures stating that very same thing. he made us with ability to make choices, but not all choices are ours. knowing the outcome of the choices doesnt take away from any goal especially ours. as was stated before, life is a test of faith and choice. THAT is the goal...... for us. its not god's personal goal for himself. its a goal he has set for us. yes, god made man in the image of himself. but he didnt get mad at adam and eve because they gained the same knowledge of good and evil like god did......he already KNEW they were going to eat the fruit. it was MEANT to happen. "there is a time for a peace and a time for war" and everything has a purpose "even the wicked for the day of evil". classic saying says the same thing "a place for everything and everything in its place". the reason god was mad was because adam and even specifically disobeyed. parents do the same thing with their kids. parents get mad when their kids are disobedient. its the same concept. he didnt create us to be mindless puppets. he has his reasons and he gave them. But if God knows the choices we will make, then there no such thing as choice. To god, then, the future would be the present, and what you will do five minutes or years from now will be no more changable than what you did yesterday as of now. Why create itif he could have, in one second, simply knew the outcome, said "Well, that was neat" and moved on. It's like seeing a photograph and then choosing to have a five-hour viewing of it. It doesn't make sense, it does not use divine logic, or even an idiot's logic. What is a test if the teacher has already graded you and knows the answers you will pick? If he knew, then he either planned it or his design was flawed. If it's the first, he has no reason to be angry- That was his ******** plan. If they had no choice in the matter as they were pre-bound to do it, that makes God either a sadistic ******** or mentally unstable. I reject both of those ideas. so you're saying that if you KNOW for a FACT, as in, not just have a hunch, but you've seen the future and KNOW your child will do something bad, that you will still let them do it and punish them for it later? That's the difference with parenting- Sometimes you have a hunch that your kid will get into the cookies. But if you know he will because you've seen the future and know that he is pre-ordained to take the cookies, you have two logical options. Hide the cookies so he can't take them, or don't get pissed off when what must happen does happen. okay well let me ask you this then. just for the sake of discussing the will of choice. Scenario: You have the choice of picking a red pen vs picking a blue pen. You KNOW ahead of time that the red pin will put out red ink and the blue pen will put out blue ink. In that type of case scenario, also using that example in relation to the points I've been trying to explain.......if you knew ahead of time of what the pen's will give you as an outcome...did you still have a choice of which pen to choose? The same thing is with God here. He knows exactly what we will do before we even make the decision. But does he make the decision for us? Nope. If we couldn't make ANY type of decision of ANY kind and he put COMPLETE control over us...only then would I question it like you do by saying "whats the point of creating something if it has no choice?". But the fact of the ......okay maybe not "fact" because I can't prove God exists, but the "logic" of the matter is that God has given us a "set" amount of choices that we can make on our own. All of which those choices have a purpose, each with its own lesson, good or bad. He gives a few reasoning in the bible for why he created mankind, but he doesn't elaborate very much on it. I can tell you the reasons he gave in the bible, but I ultimately can't sit and tell you everything God is thinking. To answer your question in the first sentence of your statement, its one thing to know the outcome of an event, but to EXPERIENCE the event is a completely different thing. Have you ever watched the movie The Watchmen? If you haven't well there's a character in the movie/comic book by the name of Dr.Manhatten. He has the ability to see the future and Silk Spectre would ask him "why are you getting made at *such and such event* if you already know what happens?" Its the same thing....there is nothing more palpable then the experience of an event. Its like....someone telling me every detail of gruesome moment of what its like getting raped, but I will never truly understand or know what its like unless I was ACTUALLY raped. God is not being sadistic. He sent is one and only son (however more technically *one* of himself) to earth to live with mankind. Jesus suffered insensible amounts of ridicule and beatings and torture and utter crap and EXPERIENCED what it was like living like mankind does. He knows our pain. He knows what we're going through, but he also knows whats "best" for us because he knows our future. One thing I or anyone else will ever be able to tell you is when God DOES make an active intervening of some kind. The only thing we know he actively does is the weather. That's an act of God. Beyond that we don't know when he intervenes in our life. The point I'm making is that, he didn't create us just for his glory, the life he gave us is a test FOR US. Whether he knows the answers or not WE don't know the answers. Its a learning process for us and its a test of faith. Let me add one more point here. It goes in relation to whats the point of God creating us if we are either damned for heaven or for hell. Scenario 2: Lets say you have a million dollars and you had NO CHOICE but to give it to person A or person B. You have the power know beforehand what type of person A and person B are like. You know before hand what both will do with the money. person A you know (beforehand) will live a life as a good person and do what they can to help others and to spend the money wisely, supporting themself, but also trying to enjoy life. person B you know (beforehand) will take the money and spend it all on himself, treats others horribly and will waste his life away. which person will you give it to? the person who will make the most of it or the person who will waste it all away? In that same type of logic, this is the best way I can explain to why God pre-ordains salvation to specific individuals. He knows us before he even creates us. He knows what we will do with the salvation he gives us. In THAT sense.....do you honestly think he would give it to individuals that will do nothing with it? What would be the point. But Now someone would interject "well if he knows that if he gave it to a person that would waste it away, then whats the point of creating" because... Quote: Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Even evil has a purpose. Whether they are damned or not. EVERYTHING has a purpose. I can't think of any better way to explain that to you. We are not pens, though. We do more than spurt out ink onto a page, and we do so of our own free will. Give the pens the ability to reason and create on their own and we are back to the same problem. Also, when you use a pen, YOU control it. WE control ourselves. Unless you say that we don't, in which case God controls us and has no reason to be angry when we do what we are forced to. We come full circle in this argument. If God knows, then we must have no choice. If you MUST do something, you have no choice in the matter. If God knows the absolute future, then your actions are not in a line, but are a simple fact and there can be no choice or decision involved. But God isn't limited by human experience- He's supposed to be omnipotent and simply KNOW, right? So why bother with doing when he already has? Unless, again, he is either unable to know fully, or he is bound by his own rules. But why did he send his son? And if he knew we would reject it, why bother? Why, why why? Your arguments are failing because they pigeonhole God as much as they do Man. Because he had to? Because it was pre-ordained by him, as himself, to himself, because he was pre-ordained to pre-ordain it? Weather is determined by atmospheric events relating to rotation, gravitation, condensation and temperature. I believe ALL things are filled with divine essence, so Weather is technically god-touched, but there's no bearded man on a cloud hurling lightning on us. It's not a test if he already knows. Let's try this. I ask you a question, I know your answer before you say it. What's the point in asking, and what's the point in grading you based on what I already know what you will say? And what was this money scenario? How the ******** do YOU know what someone will do? Sure, some people are dicks. But that is a choice they make to live like dicks- Mostly to get ahead and gain power and wealth. That's not just because they are inherently bad, forever and ever under God's decree. It's because we live in a system where bad deeds can be rewarded in cash. I agree, bad people deserve hell. But they aren't doomed from the uterus on- They have to decide what they will do. How about this- There's an arrogant kid and a polite but wierd kid. Now, the first one will either use said million dollars to buy a mansion and hire immigrant servants to exploit, or he may donate to charity in his name. The polite kid may waste it on manga and mountain dew and WoW subscriptions, or he may use it to feed the hungry. It's up to them. Which do you give it to? Can you pick one and toss them into hell or heaven before they even act, or even feel right putting their names down on the guest list? No s**t, everything has a purpose and a place. But that doesn't mean that things are static or determined.
ugh...please dont take my examples so literal. im using the example as a point to a concept. of COURSE we are more than just pens. yes we have a brain and can comprehend good and evil and yes, we control ourselves. i never said god was limited to human experience. i was stating that god isn't blind to how we live. i think you're missing everything ive been saying.
oh man....god sent his son to die on the cross for our SINS....our SINS....not our salvation. well its a part of it, but he died on the cross to cleanse all the believers and non believers of their sins. the purpose of this was to keep us from punishing ourselves every time we did something wrong. you know those monks or priests back in medieval times that would whip their backs? they ddi that because they believer their sins were not forgiven. they did it to cleanse them self of their daily sins. but jesus ALREADY has done that for us. he took upon himself the sins of the world.
but that alone does not save us from hell. thats only part of the deal. the spiritual salvation that god gives is the center key to us being in heaven or hell.
i think what you assume im saying is that god created life for us as a test for himself. thats NOT what im saying. what im saying is that god created life as a test FOR US. it doesnt have to do with him, accept that he also created us for his glory and to be a "light upon another's way". its a "test" because it is for us to LEARN from the EXPERIENCE. it doesnt matter if god knows ahead of time what we will and will not do. its a process for US to go through.
Quote: And what was this money scenario? How the ******** do YOU know what someone will do? Sure, some people are dicks. But that is a choice they make to live like dicks- Mostly to get ahead and gain power and wealth. That's not just because they are inherently bad, forever and ever under God's decree. It's because we live in a system where bad deeds can be rewarded in cash. I agree, bad people deserve hell. But they aren't doomed from the uterus on- They have to decide what they will do.
stop....taking it....literally......i was using the example to make a POINT to the concept ive been trying to show you. but you keep taking things at face value. do you get what im saying or not?
Quote: No s**t, everything has a purpose and a place. But that doesn't mean that things are static or determined.
hey...cussing is not "necessary". i get the fact your frustrated and trust me, i understand the frustration because i find it personally hard to accept the concepts im trying to show. *sighs* ugh....at this point? we can drop the debate if you want. that last thing i want to do is push someone to frustration because they either dont get what im saying or they personally dont want to accept it or...
i could be wrong all together.....yes i accept that possibility. im not god so theres only so many points that i can go so far on. i was hoping my last response would enlighten some understanding, but i guess not. oh well. some things just take time to learn or maybe they're never learned at all. thanks for responding back anyway though. believe it or not i DO enjoy discussing these sort of things with people even if it seems fruitless crying |
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:58 pm
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You have been saying that we are determined by God to do what we will do, and nothing can change that, am I right? I have been fighting that notion with logic. Either we ARE determined, and God is a sadist or mentally unstable, or we AREN'T determined and God is free of those things. Now pick one, please. I know that God isn't blind to what we do. But there are gradients between complete dark blindness and knowing the future. I'm fine with a rough-plan idea, but to think that God similtaneously set up a "test" where he already knows how we will answer and has graded us 5 billion years ago seems like cutting out paper dolls and punishing them when you drop them for falling prey to gravity.
I never said Christ died for our salvation or our sins. I think it was far simpler, and we as humans are making asses of ourselves. Jesus was God's finger pointing out a good way to live. We, like retarded dogs, looked straight at the finger and ignored it's subject. "Oh thank you jeezus for dying! Now I'll go exploit third world countries because you loooouve us so much!" No. Wrong. Bad.
The point of Jesus' whole life was to be a decent person and to fight against what was wrong. Even if you would, and here it comes, be killed over it. Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi were all examples of decent people following that mentality. The point wasn't "Oh, now we have a free ride that saves us from some bullshit the first couple people did millions of years ago"- That's just stupid. I know that's not what you're saying, but I hear it a lot and I need to clarify that it, and it's similar spawn, are wrong and are most likely things that make the real Christ in heaven very pissed off. Yes, he did technically die for our sins, but I think the idea was that we would also kind of STOP DOING THEM and LIVE LIKE HE DID, rather than the fact that he was a good dude who stuck to his guns.
No, that's the logical implication. If WE have no say over what we do, then it's God. If God has a say over what we do, and God is pissed off about what we do, then God has a brain disease. If it's a process, how could God be pissed at us for following his plan? That's kind of ******** up. Again, like being pissed off about your paper doll falling when you drop it. But at the doll, not the gravity or your own stupid hands for dropping it.
And again, the concept was flawed from the core. I retaliated with another, more realistic metaphor that filled in the gaps you left gaping in your reasoning. I wasn't being literal either. Do you get what I'm saying?
Then don't accept them. There are too many holes for it to be logically valid, and it sits poorly in the stomach, let alone reasoning soul. I am trying to shake your assumptions because I know them to be wrong. I don't claim to know what is right, but I'm fairly certain that determinism is a pile.
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:25 pm
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as a first statement id like to say that im glad im not stepping on any toes here. hence my reason for asking if maybe i should just drop the subject all together. but im glad to see i didn't do so, so now we shall continue smile
divineseraph You have been saying that we are determined by God to do what we will do, and nothing can change that, am I right?
In regards to spiritual salvation. yes. but saying that god is a sadist for pre-ordaining our salvation is purely an opinion. but if that's how you feel then i will leave that alone.
Quote: I'm fine with a rough-plan idea, but to think that God similtaneously set up a "test" where he already knows how we will answer and has graded us 5 billion years ago seems like cutting out paper dolls and punishing them when you drop them for falling prey to gravity.
fair enough. opinions are opinions so i won't try to push further by giving a point that has already been made. but dont get me wrong, i know what you mean.
Quote: I never said Christ died for our salvation or our sins. I think it was far simpler, and we as humans are making asses of ourselves. Jesus was God's finger pointing out a good way to live. We, like retarded dogs, looked straight at the finger and ignored it's subject. "Oh thank you jeezus for dying! Now I'll go exploit third world countries because you loooouve us so much!" No. Wrong. Bad. The point of Jesus' whole life was to be a decent person and to fight against what was wrong. Even if you would, and here it comes, be killed over it. Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi were all examples of decent people following that mentality. The point wasn't "Oh, now we have a free ride that saves us from some bullshit the first couple people did millions of years ago"- That's just stupid. I know that's not what you're saying, but I hear it a lot and I need to clarify that it, and it's similar spawn, are wrong and are most likely things that make the real Christ in heaven very pissed off. Yes, he did technically die for our sins, but I think the idea was that we would also kind of STOP DOING THEM and LIVE LIKE HE DID, rather than the fact that he was a good dude who stuck to his gun
ohhhhhhhhh okay. yeah i totally get yah there. and im glad i didn't mis-communicate at least on that point
Quote: No, that's the logical implication. If WE have no say over what we do, then it's God. If God has a say over what we do, and God is pissed off about what we do, then God has a brain disease. If it's a process, how could God be pissed at us for following his plan? That's kind of ******** up. Again, like being pissed off about your paper doll falling when you drop it. But at the doll, not the gravity or your own stupid hands for dropping it.
But we do have a say in what we do, just not in everything. Sorry if I'm being redundant here, but I think I'm not making all my points clear enough. Let me see if I can give a example here....and yeah I know...but this is a more tangile example in the form of a question. okay? here we go.
mankind makes machines right? computers. mankind makes computers and we (as in mankind) knows for a fact that they aren't perfect and that they are bound to, somewhere along the line, mess up. but even in knowing that they will mess up, then why do we still get pissed beyond all recognition when they don't work? we know for a fact they're flawed and will break, but we get mad anyway.
if we can answer why mankind does it, then the same can be applied to god (technically speaking). so why DO we get mad? it goes back to what i was trying to get at before about the difference between knowing a result and actually acting or experiencing the result. however i know the nature of mankind can not entirely be applied to god, depending on the circumstance, but in this case it might apply. i guess my point is maybe sit with yourself and ask yourself why you get at anything to begin with if you know it'll mess up? sorry if that sounded condescending. im purely just asking hypotheticals here because im asking myself the same question.
Quote: And again, the concept was flawed from the core. I retaliated with another, more realistic metaphor that filled in the gaps you left gaping in your reasoning. I wasn't being literal either. Do you get what I'm saying?
No I got what you were saying. in fact i knew you were going to refute in such a way because people have done it to me before. but the problem is, is that there WAS no gaps in the examples i gave. i gave a "set" scenario with a "set" circumstance and i asked a question based on if you HAD to do a specific action which would it be? the natural response for people is to over analyze a given scenario and come up with with multiple different solutions when in reality they only have one answer to give. this is going to come off as bitchy, but you're overanalyzing the points i was trying to make.
there's a difference between giving a set example that has a set purpose and concept tied in with it versus a hypothetical example that is purposely left open for "gaps" and theories that are tied in with it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:39 am
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Sadism isn't really opinion. That's how such tendancies would be diagnosed by a psychoanalysist. There are probably many other negative disorders involved with your idea of God.
No, the point was to debate them, logically. Does it make sense? If not, how the ******** can you accept it as truth? It doesn't follow a downs-syndrome idiot child's logic, let alone absolute supreme divine wisdom. God uses divine logic, as shown in chemical composition, gravitation, light, mass and energy and so forth. Therefore, I submit that it can not be truth.
We know they can fail, but we don't force them to fail or expect them to fail or set them up with the task of failing, and we don't know when or if they will fail. Your examples are bad because they are only half of the criteria that we're talking about, and are therefore not suitable examples. That's a logical fallacy of false analogy.
Here's one for you- How does it make sense knowing that you have, essentially, a 50/50 chance of buring in hell? Keep in mind, God decided this a long time ago, right? So, at your death bed, God may find it prudent to have you renounce your faith in Jesus or whatever it is you think you need, eat a bucket of babies, whatever. Are you cool with that? What kind of justice is that, let alone freedom?
But it was a false analogy- The question had little to do with the reality. It was like if I offered you 1,000 dollars to kill a man, and when you said no, said "Well, would you take 20 dollars if I offered it to you? so what's the problem?"- It's only half of the problem, and the focus was the other half.
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