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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:06 pm
WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Beware the Jabberwock WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." Wow - I love you for that.
Where does this leave me? =(
Pyro, this isn't over!
~skitters off~It leaves you skittering off...TO THE KITCHEN! Get back inf ront of that stove women...or else I'll have a reason to use this bat. We all know that women are only good for two things...pie and...well, more pie. *wink* Which reminds me, I better get off to make that pie... What about me? I hate the stove and I rather eat the pie then make it (they can make it themselfs if they really want it xp ). I really do hate the stove (it smells weird, I think it needs to be replace).
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:35 pm
A lot of the abortion debate is a sad attempt to twist words around. Although Pro-lifers also tend to oppose the death penalty and assisted suicide, Pro-life in politics is mainly about being against abortion. Pro-choice is an even bigger stretch. Generally this only means that you're promoting ONE choice for ONE very select group of people. It would honestly be more honest to say Pro-abortion and Anti-abortion. But I can understand that this doesn't sound as good for either side. However it really does make me angry, particularly when mainstream media resorts to using a bias by calling one side Pro-choice, and the others Anti-choice. I know it's just words, but words hurt.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:30 am
La Veuve Zin WatersMoon110 We all know that women are only good for two things...pie and...well, more pie. *wink* ...Warrrrm apple pie.... mrgreen I prefer cherry pie
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:31 am
sachiko_sohma WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Beware the Jabberwock WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." Wow - I love you for that.
Where does this leave me? =(
Pyro, this isn't over!
~skitters off~It leaves you skittering off...TO THE KITCHEN! Get back inf ront of that stove women...or else I'll have a reason to use this bat. We all know that women are only good for two things...pie and...well, more pie. *wink* Which reminds me, I better get off to make that pie... What about me? I hate the stove and I rather eat the pie then make it (they can make it themselfs if they really want it xp ). I really do hate the stove (it smells weird, I think it needs to be replace). Yeah...I like...eating...pie too
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:15 pm
Tiger of the Fire La Veuve Zin WatersMoon110 We all know that women are only good for two things...pie and...well, more pie. *wink* ...Warrrrm apple pie.... mrgreen I prefer cherry pie
Lemon pie, Key-Lime pie, Pumpkin Pie. Mmmm.
Now to actually add something of relevence to this thread I'll quote myself from another;Quote: The problem here is that the titles are misnomers.
Pro-Choice insinuates that we are "anti-choice" when infact we are anti legal abortion. Our opinions on an array of other choices vary.
Pro-Life insinuates that they are "pro-death" when infact they are pro the death of the fetus if the mother does not want it. Their opinions on an array of other life issues (death penalty, euthanasia, war, suicide etc.) vary.
I think that the titles that each side uses is not only to cast a good light on itself, but to also attempt to cast a bad light on the other side.
Pro-abortion and Anti-abortion, I think truely reflect the beliefs. As both pertain to how each side feels about the legality of abortion itself.
The next problem is of course that not everyone who is pro-choice or pro-abortion feels that abortion is morally correct. Some people that women should be dissuaded from choosing abortion, however should not have their legal ability to procure an abortion hindered. They are what I would say would be the closest to "fence-sitters" as you will find in this debate.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:49 pm
Beware the Jabberwock Tiger of the Fire La Veuve Zin WatersMoon110 We all know that women are only good for two things...pie and...well, more pie. *wink* ...Warrrrm apple pie.... mrgreen I prefer cherry pie
Lemon pie, Key-Lime pie, Pumpkin Pie. Mmmm.
Now to actually add something of relevence to this thread I'll quote myself from another;Keylime is good, so is chocolate pie. Pumkin and apple is o.k. but I don't care much for cherry pie. Honestly I hate it when we're all anti-choice. we're not against choices all choices, we just disagree with some and with some choices are wrong. It's not like we all force women to stay pregnant, we just hopes she just listens and at lets concider not aborting (there is always adoption). How would pro-choicers feel if we all go around calling them pro-death or anti-life? I'm sure they would be upset. As elffromspace said-even though their just words, the meaning of the words can hurt. To be honest i'm for the death penalty for convicted murders, I think people that kill for no reason and keep harming others should be executed. I'm pro-life for the innocent, not murders that keep killing people, it depends on the person and situation.(i'm against the war though, that is just pointless killing and usually only hurts people not help). As for the assisted suicide-That is difficult. On one hand, the doctor took and oath to help save lifes and do no harm but on another hand, they can't save everybody and some patients are dying a slow and painful death (there isn't anything more the doctor can do to help) and want it to end sooner and give consent to it.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:23 pm
Beware the Jabberwock Now to actually add something of relevence to this thread I'll quote myself from another; Quote: The problem here is that the titles are misnomers.
Pro-Choice insinuates that we are "anti-choice" when infact we are anti legal abortion. Our opinions on an array of other choices vary.
Pro-Life insinuates that they are "pro-death" when infact they are pro the death of the fetus if the mother does not want it. Their opinions on an array of other life issues (death penalty, euthanasia, war, suicide etc.) vary.
I think that the titles that each side uses is not only to cast a good light on itself, but to also attempt to cast a bad light on the other side.
Pro-abortion and Anti-abortion, I think truely reflect the beliefs. As both pertain to how each side feels about the legality of abortion itself.
The next problem is of course that not everyone who is pro-choice or pro-abortion feels that abortion is morally correct. Some people that women should be dissuaded from choosing abortion, however should not have their legal ability to procure an abortion hindered. They are what I would say would be the closest to "fence-sitters" as you will find in this debate. Being on topic! *scoffs* I don't think that the Pro-Choice side is (usually) for abortion. The majority of Pro-Choicers (on other sites and in Real Life, at least *grin*) believe that abortion should be a last resort, and kept legal. But almost no one believes that abortion is a good thing, or thinks that women should be influenced to choose it. And, as you said, some people think that women should be influenced to not choose abortion, but abortion should still be kept legal (and many of those people will self-identify as "Pro-Choice"). I would say that Pro-Legal-Abortion and Anti-Legal-Abortion (Pro-Illegal-Abortion? *grin*) are accurate (though long) terms.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:26 pm
sachiko_sohma To be honest i'm for the death penalty for convicted murders, I think people that kill for no reason and keep harming others should be executed. I'm pro-life for the innocent, not murders that keep killing people, it depends on the person and situation.(i'm against the war though, that is just pointless killing and usually only hurts people not help). As for the assisted suicide-That is difficult. On one hand, the doctor took and oath to help save lifes and do no harm but on another hand, they can't save everybody and some patients are dying a slow and painful death (there isn't anything more the doctor can do to help) and want it to end sooner and give consent to it. Care to start a new topic about these? Actually, maybe I will! Mind if I quote you? (If you do, I'll remove the quote.)
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:53 pm
WatersMoon110 Being on topic! *scoffs* I don't think that the Pro-Choice side is (usually) for abortion. The majority of Pro-Choicers (on other sites and in Real Life, at least *grin*) believe that abortion should be a last resort, and kept legal. But almost no one believes that abortion is a good thing, or thinks that women should be influenced to choose it. And, as you said, some people think that women should be influenced to not choose abortion, but abortion should still be kept legal (and many of those people will self-identify as "Pro-Choice"). I would say that Pro-Legal-Abortion and Anti-Legal-Abortion (Pro-Illegal-Abortion? *grin*) are accurate (though long) terms. Sorry about beig on topic. But I came to this guild to hopefully discuss abortion with people of actual intelligence, or at least tolerance. And I do agree that many average people who are Pro-Choice don't really like abortion. What I find crazy about that is the difference between the average opinion, and the actual laws. Most people I talk to have no idea just how prevalent abortion really is. The number has been decreasing lately, but about 1 or 4 pregnancies end in abortion. Also most people say they only think it should be a last resort, but then why are there so many repeat abortions? And I know that statistics from pro-life brochures are not an unbiased resource, but it's the only place I've ever found a stat about reasons for abortions and it claimed that only 1% are due to reported rapes, and only 4% are for health reasons. Also why do so many Pro-Choice politicians so adamantly oppose infomred consent laws? Or any type of parental involement laws, even those that make exceptions for difficult cases? I think that most Pro-Choice people are far less extreeme than the lawmakers who claim to be representing them, and if we could get to a policy that reflected the average opinion we'd be a lot better off. But I think a lot of these issues might fit better within one of the other threads. This thread is more about how words are twisted as part of the debate. I hate having a debate which is more about word games and regurgitated cliches than actual thought.
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:51 am
elffromspace Sorry about beig on topic. But I came to this guild to hopefully discuss abortion with people of actual intelligence, or at least tolerance. Sorry, we mostly know each other pretty well in here, and tend to get very silly and offtopic (and distracted by delicious pie). Welcome! elffromspace And I do agree that many average people who are Pro-Choice don't really like abortion. What I find crazy about that is the difference between the average opinion, and the actual laws. That is true. Even many State laws are not quite as constrictive about abortion as the majority of the populous really is (like where third trimester abortions are not outright banned). But, for the most part, I think that abortion practices (like not providing third trimester abortions except in the case of an emergency) do tend to follow general public opinion on the matter. elffromspace Most people I talk to have no idea just how prevalent abortion really is. The number has been decreasing lately, As has the pregnancy rate, it's been falling since 90 or so, though there has been somewhat of a spike (due, many people feel, to Abstinence Only education). elffromspace but about 1 or 4 pregnancies end in abortion. 25%? Are you sure? I thought it was less than that, but the newest info I could find (from 2000, unfortunately) said 24.1%, so that is close. Though I hope it has gone down some since then... elffromspace Also most people say they only think it should be a last resort, but then why are there so many repeat abortions? That confuses me also. I mean, something like 40% of women get a second abortion (though this means over half only get one, ever). I figure it's a mix of reasons, like: -Some women don't know how to use contraceptives properly, and so make the same mistake twice. -Some women are very fertile, and so get pregnant (despite, I hope, use of contraceptive) more than once when they can't afford/don't want to be pregnant. -Some women get an abortion when they are very young, and then another years later for different reasons. elffromspace And I know that statistics from pro-life brochures are not an unbiased resource, but it's the only place I've ever found a stat about reasons for abortions and it claimed that only 1% are due to reported rapes, and only 4% are for health reasons. I would guess that those estimates are probably also guesses, but I think both rates are reasonably low. If you'll permit me to quote from a somewhat biased site (they are Pro-Choice, but their info doesn't seem to be skewed because of it, as far as I can tell - they collect information from women after they choose to abort, if the women are willing): Quote: On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner. Those are the main reasons for abortion. Which is why I try to keep debate away from health reasons/rape since most abortions just don't happen because of those reasons. elffromspace Also why do so many Pro-Choice politicians so adamantly oppose infomred consent laws? Or any type of parental involement laws, even those that make exceptions for difficult cases? Well, many lobbyists (on both "sides" surprisingly) seem to feel that any law limiting abortion is a step towards making all abortions illegal. So that would be my guess as to the reason. Personally, I'm somewhat divided on the Parental Consent laws, though slightly in favor of those with exceptions for emergency situations and cases of incest, abuse, or neglect. elffromspace I think that most Pro-Choice people are far less extreeme than the lawmakers who claim to be representing them, and if we could get to a policy that reflected the average opinion we'd be a lot better off. I agree, just about completely. elffromspace But I think a lot of these issues might fit better within one of the other threads. Yeah...I was thinking that also...but I'm lazy and thought I would just answer them here (and above this post - to confuse people). elffromspace This thread is more about how words are twisted as part of the debate. I hate having a debate which is more about word games and regurgitated cliches than actual thought. This thread is actually me venting about how angry some of my fellow Pro-Choicers made me on another forum. *wink*
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:23 pm
Tiger of the Fire Erasmas WatersMoon110 Erasmas WatersMoon110 If by "re-think their position" you mean "report your post" then you are right. Eh, let 'em report the post. I don't know the mentality of the mods, but if someone calls me an a*****e, and I call them one back, I don't see I'd be the insitgator and bad guy. I'm sure I've been reported plenty of times. How many times have my posts actually been deleted or have I been banned? Not many. Flaming back is still flaming. As someone who does report many a thread and post, I feel I do know the basic opinion of the Mods. If someone flames you, you have to report them (at least, on Gaia - in real life you can't, of course). Responding to them just gets both of you in trouble. That's retarded, in my opinion. It takes elementary school 'Rules and Responsibilities' and dumbs them down even more. Because there is a such thing as instigating a situation that would not have occurred had it not been for one person. I understand you have to, at times, be the bigger person and walk away from the argument. But I also know that it's dumb as hell to take down BOTH parties just because one of them is an a*****e and the other just isn't going to accept it and walk away. Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." What is that supposed to mean? I know what maturity means, and I'd suggest you brush up on its definition if you think making snide comments at someone you disagree with is mature, "buddy".
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:24 pm
WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." Wow - I love you for that. You would. I can see I've wasted my time discussing anything with you. You're just like those people in the abortion thread would high five one another when someone makes some mean or rude comment.
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:42 pm
Erasmas WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." Wow - I love you for that. You would. I can see I've wasted my time discussing anything with you. You're just like those people in the abortion thread would high five one another when someone makes some mean or rude comment. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that only you were allowed to make rude comments... [edit]I was too angry to leave it at that. Part of being mature means not dropping down to the level of someone who is insulting you instead of actually debating. If you think that flaming someone back is "mature" then you are sadly mistaken. If you think that someone telling you that such behavior isn't mature is flaming, then you are wrong. Had you bothered to read the TOS or the Rules of ED, you would know that the way to deal with a flaming or otherwise rule breaking post is to report it and then ignore it. Flaming back is flaming, no matter how justified you feel in doing so. In fact, in ED, it is against the rules to just respond to a rule breaking post at all! In my opinion, you have not acted mature in here, and if you think that insulting both SubForum Mods is a good idea, I feel you should probably think again.
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:35 pm
Erasmas WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Buddy...grab your self a dictionary and look up the word "maturity." Wow - I love you for that. You would. I can see I've wasted my time discussing anything with you. You're just like those people in the abortion thread would high five one another when someone makes some mean or rude comment. As opposed to your rude comments that you've been making in probably half of the posts in this subforum? This whole thread you've argued that it's stupid and weak to not flame back. It's almost like you came here to antagonize people. Saying "You're just like them," doesn't hold as much weight when you're arguing that in a debate, we should be "just like them" and flame away.
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