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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:29 pm
Lord Yawgmoth Actually Liq. I double checked because I'm still unsure and the answer is actually no. Comprehensive Rules 409.1b If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special costs (such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can’t apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability This means that only one alternative cost can be applied to the spell. Since it's being played via suspend "without paying it's mana cost" that's the only alternative cost you're allowed to make. You can't play a spell for free AND pay the buyback cost because that's two methods of playing a spell. So I overturn myself and the answer is no. Well wait...I agree about buyback and convoke being unable to be used when a spell is free, as they alter the casting the cost of the spell as you pay for it (also, I would think convoke wouldn't matter if the spell is free.) As you pay for and alter the casting cost with convoke and buy back at the time of paying for the spell, if you never payed any casting cost, you forfeit the chance to use those ability. (Although you can use buyback and convoke at the same time if you pay for the spell, like with the card Sprout Swarm). But I have to disagree on the kicker. If you played the spell for free, you should still be able to pay the kicker. One of the rulings on kicker actually says that "The kicker cost does not count as part of the mana cost or converted mana cost for the spell". From what I know, where buyback is tacted onto the total casting cost, and therefore is payed when the cost of the spell is played. However, kicker is played when the spell is put on the stack. Therefore, when the spell is played for free, as long as it is still played (unlike when the spell is copied and not played, which does allow for any abilities to be played, or trigger storm count). So say I fetch a Urza's Rage in my big deck off of a sunforger, I should be able to pay the kicker when it is played. Mark Rosewater Article on MTG.com As there isn't a lot to say about the design of kicker as a mechanic, I thought I'd walk through a few interesting things that happened as we tried to use kicker on various spells. Rout/Breaking Wave/Twilight's Call/Ghitu Fire/Saproling Symbiosis Rout, Breaking Wave, Twilight's Call, Ghitu Fire, and Saproling Symbiosis So have you ever wondered why this rare cycle didn't have kicker? After all, each requires you to pay 2 Mana to get a bonus to the card (aka turned it into an instant). They sure feel like they have kicker. And you know what, they did. Well, up until templating, that is. Then we ran into a little snag. Kicker costs aren't played until you play the spell. This means that the spell has to already be played before the kicker can alter it. See the problem here?
If these spells had kicker then you would have to play the spell before you could use the kicker. And as the kicker was the thing letting you play the card as an instant, the timing really didn't work out; there was no way to play them an instant speed. (To all the rules gurus out there, yes, I know there's no such thing as "instant speed"; just work with me here. Everyone else knows what I mean.) These cards were created because we were trying to find other cool things we could do with kicker and in the end, to have their functionality they had to lose kicker. Ah, sweet, sweet irony. See what I'm getting at? Since you pay the kick after the original casting cost, shouldn't bypassing paying for the original casting cost not effect your ability to pay the kicker? (Once again I use sunforger as a reference, as it is a commonly used trick in my and at least one other big deck in my area, to fetch a card that can then be kicked for a greater effect.)
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:51 pm
So I decided to peek into this further based on String_Theory's post and without even needing to go very far I found my answer. Scepter Chant Isochron Scepter is worded in such a manner that Kicker CAN be played even though the copy is played for free. Since buyback and convoke work in the same manner as kicker as far as additional costs are concerned I decided to check the ruling on Suspend which reads as follows. Comprehensive Rules 502.59 Suspend 502.59. Suspend 502.59a Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a player’s hand. The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the removed-from-the-game zone. “Suspend N—[cost]” means “If you could play this card from your hand, you may pay [cost] and remove it from the game with N time counters on it. This action doesn’t use the stack,” and “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it,” and “When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it’s removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can’t, it remains removed from the game. If you play a creature spell this way, it gains haste until you lose control of the spell or the permanent it becomes.” Notice, how the bold part is exactly worded like Isochron Scepter meaning you DO play the suspended spell. This means any additional costs such as kicker and buyback can be played if a spell comes off from suspend. So the final word Liq is Yes. You CAN buyback a spell off of suspend because of the way suspend plays it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:23 am
I have a few questions about the Kamigawa flip creatures.
Once flipped, do they become colorless?
Do they have a converted mana cost of zero?
For example- Bushi Tenderfoot/ Kenzo the Hardhearted
It costs W to play the tenderfoot so it is a white creature with converted mana cost of 1, but when it flips Kenzo has no real mana cost.
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:40 pm
This should answer your question. Comprehensive Rules 508 Flip Cards 508.1c A flip card's color, mana cost, expansion symbol, illustration credit, and legal text don't change if the permanent has been flipped. Also, any changes to it by external effects will still apply. So a flipped Bushi Tenderfoot will still be white, and still have a converted mana cost of one.
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:15 pm
Ok there is a card that is confussing me.
Cone of Flame
3RR
sorcery
Cone of Flame deals one damage to target creature or player,2 damage to another creature or player, and three damage to a third creature or player.
_____________________________________________________________
The question is can you target the same thing more than once with this card?
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:41 pm
Lord Yawgmoth This should answer your question. Comprehensive Rules 508 Flip Cards 508.1c A flip card's color, mana cost, expansion symbol, illustration credit, and legal text don't change if the permanent has been flipped. Also, any changes to it by external effects will still apply. So a flipped Bushi Tenderfoot will still be white, and still have a converted mana cost of one. Thank you.
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:40 am
SkeletonPhoenix Ok there is a card that is confussing me. Cone of Flame 3RR sorcery Cone of Flame deals one damage to target creature or player,2 damage to another creature or player, and three damage to a third creature or player. _____________________________________________________________ The question is can you target the same thing more than once with this card? Yes. You used to not be able to however as of Champions of Kamigawa with the introduction of Splice the rules on targetting changed a little bit. To further explain let me use an example. If a spell says "Tap two target creatures" you can't target the same creature twice because it only uses the word target once. If a spell says "Destroy target artifact and target land" you can target one artifact land twice for each ability because it uses the word target twice. Cone of Flame uses the word target more than once so therefore as long as the creature or player you're attempting to deal total 5 damage to is a legal target you can choose it to be the target for each instance of the word target.
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 pm
Lord Yawgmoth SkeletonPhoenix Ok there is a card that is confussing me. Cone of Flame 3RR sorcery Cone of Flame deals one damage to target creature or player,2 damage to another creature or player, and three damage to a third creature or player. _____________________________________________________________ The question is can you target the same thing more than once with this card? Yes. You used to not be able to however as of Champions of Kamigawa with the introduction of Splice the rules on targetting changed a little bit. To further explain let me use an example. If a spell says "Tap two target creatures" you can't target the same creature twice because it only uses the word target once. If a spell says "Destroy target artifact and target land" you can target one artifact land twice for each ability because it uses the word target twice. Cone of Flame uses the word target more than once so therefore as long as the creature or player you're attempting to deal total 5 damage to is a legal target you can choose it to be the target for each instance of the word target. official rulings says you need three different legal targets
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:13 pm
gonk Yes. You do. I missed the words "Another target creature" and "A third"
The words "Another" and "A third" specify that each target must be different. If those words were not present however my ruling would be correct. But since that's not the case the official rulings are correct.
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:57 pm
Lord Yawgmoth gonk Yes. You do. I missed the words "Another target creature" and "A third" The words "Another" and "A third" specify that each target must be different. If those words were not present however my ruling would be correct. But since that's not the case the official rulings are correct. yeah, that's how type one tricks with Sundering titan work. Say you can nail 3 of their land, but still need to hit a plains and island, you can target your tundra for both and only lose one land. Wording is always a b***h in this game.
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:51 pm
on waning wurm can i stifle the triggered sacrafice so it stays in play? ...ive been waiting for an answer to this question for a while now..lol
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:53 pm
Yes. It uses the word "When" meaning it's a triggered ability and is a legal target for stifle to counter.
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:46 pm
If a player plays a Rule of Law, they can no longer play spells this turn, right?
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:59 pm
Yes. Rule of Law and Arcane Laboratory will both look back over the turn once they're in play and notice themselves being played and that will fill your limit for the turn.
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:15 pm
Grab the Reins: Choose one - Until end of turn, you gain control of target creature and it gains haste; or sacrifice a creature, then Grab the Reins deals damage equal to that creature's power to target creature or player.
Kicker (2) (R)
SO, since the wording on this is in that order, being seize control, and Then the sacrifice, You could take the opponents creature, and sac it as well?
Yeah, boring question. I think I already know how it works.
Another Off Topic: What happened to the Competitive Guild? I was on an expidition for... well... a while... and came back and it's disabled.
You do that, or did we do something ILLEGAL?!?
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