Rare Material-smithing Description: A less common occupation, it involves shaping and working atypical materials, such as Beheader Steel, Samehada Scales, strange metals like uranium, and materials gathered from monsters, by forging with hammers, anvils, clamps, and many other tools. These folks can create nearly anything needed by the populace, including nails, horseshoes, weapons, armor, railing, furniture, cooking utensils, and other commonly used metallic items. After producing an item, he or she will hand their craft off to a whitesmith for finishing up. Gaining experience as a blacksmith and as a whitesmith is a must, requiring apprenticeship in both before taking this task. Smithing Example: -To be added- Requirements: Apprentice rank in blacksmithing and whitesmithing. This tree must be taken for each rare material. Training times: 10 jobs for 'Apprentice Metal-smith'. 10 more jobs for the 'Journeyman' version. 10 more posts for the 'Master' version, with an additional 10 more for the 'Grandmaster' version. Replace the word 'Metal' with the type you are studying. Benefits: Grants a 2 post reduction to crafting times with materials, for each above title, for each different material, to a minimum of 1 post per item. This title must be taken for each individual metal. Apprentice and Journeyman titles must be learned while on the job, doing missions for customers.
When was this changed to this? So this means that people literally can't take this if they are wanting to become a true weapon or armor smith as there are too many materials out there. Wouldn't it be better if they just had to take it once so they could make the weapon or armor? I mean its not that hard to research and find out how certain metals and objects work. Why does someone have to take this entire tree for only one object that the likelihood of them getting their hands on it is slim to none?
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:17 am
I asked this question in the chat: I do not have the ninjutsu class and have 7 nin slots I was told that my slots were mirrored for the purposes of elemental slots 1) is this true? 2) if so, do I get a mirrored set for each element or a new set of 7 for the combined amount?
Why did I ask this? Cause it wasn't clear about how my slots were divided. Partly, due to the following excerpt from Dual Wielder (one of the few bits of info on nin slots).
At D rank, rather than having a total of [ 06 ] ninjutsu slots for Katon or Suiton techniques, this class provides you with [ 06 ] slots for Katon and and [ 06 ] for Suiton techniques.
Now, you can argue that it makes it clear in the latter sentence about Maruton being treated as its own element and also mirrored. But the example ignores Maruton from the get go. So how many slots does that make?
Clearly the break down per discipline is as follows:
Specialist gets an additional 2 slots to base and is perfectly mirrored with Maruton. IE 8 slots for chosen element (say Katon) and 8 to Maruton. This is in part due to additional benefits to the discipline involving strength of tech & resistance to weakness.
Dual gets perfect mirroring per element, ie: 6 Maruton, 6 Katon, 6 Suiton. The main goal of this discipline is to increase the number of slots. At a minimum, those of the elements.
Brandish's main goal is to unlock another element. You sacrifice depth for variety. Getting as per listed: 3 Maruton, 3 Katon, 3 Suiton, 3 Fuuton.
Now, why then is the listed example under Dual referring to a nin with 6 slots to divide with just Katon/Suiton? Especially when none of the disciplines would grant that scenario? Answer: the base nin form outside the discipline does.
There are two interpretations: that any nin not of the Nin class only gets 6 slots that are divided amongst Katon/Suiton & Maruton or... that any ninja without a Nin Discipline would typically get the 6 for Maruton and 6 slots for Elemental Jutsu.
The former & latter are both viable interpretations due to the current wording (note that I am not saying that's how it is, simply that that's how it appears to be. I was told it was the latter which did affect my choices in class selection when I was making my profile.
Anyways, one could argue that the former is the valid interpretation but that would lend a monstrous advantage to the Nin class as opposed to just an advantage in a chosen field like the other disciplines for the other classes. Personally, I would in fact request a respec (well perhaps I would) due to that difference in strength alone (additionally not a lot of profiles of other classes seem to support this)
Sooo, it made sense for the latter to be true. They might have more Maruton slots than the Brandish but lack the versatility and have less slots overall. Which would ultimately make them weaker to Brandish but not horrifyingly so.
Specialist might have only one element but gets strong advantages to that element that counter acts the base form's versatility. Again, an advantage but not overwhelmingly so.
Finally, Dual Wielder gets more slots than the base nin of another discipline, but none of the perks of the other disciplines.
Perhaps this doesn't make a lick of sense but honestly from a balance perspective the latter trumps the former. It's fairer without taking away too much from the Nin Class. Still would likely pick Specialist or Dual but Brandish has its own strengths (access to multiple Kekkei Genkai for one)
If the former is in fact what's in place... everyone not of the Nin class is not only hurting for slots, they are overwhelmingly hampered in that department. Nor do the profiles seem to reflect that. (Side note: this also makes the Tamer class horrifying due to its ability to have its beasts have slots equal to the user, making the Tamer another powerhouse akin to the Nin, but outstripping everyone else)
Honestly, I'm not really asking for a look over of the Nin class itself. It feels very fair and reasonable if the latter interpretation is true. So I guess what I am asking is, if it isn't already so: might the mods consider it?
Rare Material-smithing Description: A less common occupation, it involves shaping and working atypical materials, such as Beheader Steel, Samehada Scales, strange metals like uranium, and materials gathered from monsters, by forging with hammers, anvils, clamps, and many other tools. These folks can create nearly anything needed by the populace, including nails, horseshoes, weapons, armor, railing, furniture, cooking utensils, and other commonly used metallic items. After producing an item, he or she will hand their craft off to a whitesmith for finishing up. Gaining experience as a blacksmith and as a whitesmith is a must, requiring apprenticeship in both before taking this task. Smithing Example: -To be added- Requirements: Apprentice rank in blacksmithing and whitesmithing. This tree must be taken for each rare material. Training times: 10 jobs for 'Apprentice Metal-smith'. 10 more jobs for the 'Journeyman' version. 10 more posts for the 'Master' version, with an additional 10 more for the 'Grandmaster' version. Replace the word 'Metal' with the type you are studying. Benefits: Grants a 2 post reduction to crafting times with materials, for each above title, for each different material, to a minimum of 1 post per item. This title must be taken for each individual metal. Apprentice and Journeyman titles must be learned while on the job, doing missions for customers.
When was this changed to this? So this means that people literally can't take this if they are wanting to become a true weapon or armor smith as there are too many materials out there. Wouldn't it be better if they just had to take it once so they could make the weapon or armor? I mean its not that hard to research and find out how certain metals and objects work. Why does someone have to take this entire tree for only one object that the likelihood of them getting their hands on it is slim to none?
I'm gonna go ahead and second this, even if I've lost confidence that the crew is even looking at this thread at all.
I've pointed out before that the crafting / job system seems specifically designed to 1) deter people from using it by not giving AC, and 2) needlessly burden people with busywork that, again, seems designed to drive people away or at least was just added to fix some hole that doesn't exist using a justification that contradicts sound design from a player interaction standpoint.
The justification for the first was that people wouldn't pay you to do tinkering on your own, but you're getting paid from thin air on jobs right now and most of them involve working in a shop. That justification would be fine if you were getting just AC. But it's being given as a justification for why I'm only getting Ryo, which is money. So no one will pay anyone for tinkering, but I'm getting money materializing from nowhere? And I'm learning nothing in the process of tinkering but somehow advancing up a title tree that allows me to make better stuff but in no way increases my skill as a person?
I find that a bit odd, and I'm really trying my best to not come off as a jerk here. I think that's bad design, I'm not calling anyone here bad, I'm saying this thing could be done in a way that encourages people to use it more than it gets used right now. Which I want, because as I've said before, I think it's a really cool idea that has unfortunately been relegated to the fringes because it's kinda a pain to interact with. Right now, either you're penalized with a character that can do nothing but craft, i.e. is part of the worker class, or you're penalized for trying to use it by being asked to spend a bunch of time that doesn't accomplish anything but give you the ability to maybe make stuff, the approval of which for use in a meaningful situation is still kinda confusing to me. Either way, you're penalized for using that system, and penalizing everyone for using it seems like a great way to make sure people avoid it unless it's the only thing standing between them and what they want.
This addition to rare materials smithing is a perfect example of the second. I hope this doesn't come across as snarky, because they're genuine questions and concerns. What's the point in taking it now if you have to pick one material? Why would anyone seek out rare material via mining or monster hunting if no one in the guild can make something out of it? There's no way to use that stuff in Takumi, and there's no system for selling it for Ryo that I can see, so why would I want it? If I mine and get something special, there's a good chance it just sits in my inventory for the rest of time. If I hunt monsters and get something special, I probably can't use it for anything. If you offer us something special as a reward for an arc, there's not really a reason to claim it unless we're willing to focus our special materials smithing skill on this material we can only get from this arc.
There's also no announcement about it anywhere. Just like there wasn't an announcement about the change to formless that everything caps at S+, which contradicts what a good number of people were told by other mods. I found out by talking to other people in the guild, or I wouldn't have had any idea. We're not all plugged into the discord 24/7, this information needs to be disseminated to everyone. I really try to be respectful in my feedback here, and feel like I still am but also that I need to point out that it feels like this thread is being ignored while the crew of SN seem content to make rulings or clarifications on things behind closed doors, only to people who specifically ask, and neither add that information to the guild anywhere or update rules to reflect what they decide.
Wolfy says this isn't how it worked? I believe her, considering someone swooped in and made adjustments to the rewards of a bunch of missions without making an announcement about it either.
Y'all have this thread, in which a mod hasn't replied to more than one person in about a month, and that has quotes that were ignored; and the only mod that's replied after that ignored the other posts to answer one person, without quoting them. Y'all have the Q&A thread which no one has looked at in a month, meanwhile you've got someone who is new and clearly doesn't know there's a Discord bouncing through them, and people like me who you've posthumously booted from Discord, who have no reliable line of dialogue with the crew. Even quoting and PMing doesn't seem to work consistently, as I've asked questions of multiple members of the crew via Gaia PM or quote and gotten nothing but crickets.
It makes it seem like y'all just don't care what we have to say. Like you don't care that there are clearly people in this guild that care and want to work to make it better, or have concerns that deserve being addressed.
I guess I'll go ahead and point out that the Nin/Nin jutsu totals seem to be a bit backwards as far as scaling, thanks to Nin/Nin combo giving Elemental Dual Wielder's per element feature to all the disciplines. Elemental Specialist gets 192 total ninjutsu (double class base is 36, plus 4 more jutsu at start from doubling up on the class, and 24 more across the remaining ranks and then multiplied by 3 elements [2 + Maruton] thanks to the Nin/Nin combo features), Elemental Dual Wielder 144, and Elemental Brandish 70, before expansions. The problem here is that's 64 jutsu per element with Specialist, and some elements don't even have that many jutsu period. To top it all off they get the most jutsu total, despite having access to the fewest jutsu overall, and having a not insignificant bump in power to all their jutsu - overwhelm same rank AND ignore elemental weakness. So they have a hell of a lot of powerful jutsu, such that they could throw any A rank jutsu at any other A rank jutsu an win, even if theirs is a fireball and the jutsu it's hitting it a tsunami.
If we slide over to Elemental Brandish, they get 14 slots per jutsu (which roughs out to about 2 per rank), and end up with less overall jutsu, thanks to the downgrade in their jutsu gain, than my Elemental Dual Wielding Puppeteer. And all their jutsu would lose to my puppeteer's jutsu, and that of any other class in the guild that gets ninjutsu. So, their jutsu is objectively weaker than everyone, and they have half the total jutsu of the next highest discipline despite having access to more techniques than anyone else. Makes it pretty hard to justify taking that discipline.
Flipping the Elemental Brandish and Elemental Specialist's jutsu gain, and tweaking it slightly so the reduction isn't as harsh, and the gain isn't as big, would see all the disciplines getting between 30 and 40 jutsu per element. Specialist's extra power and inability to be overwhelmed would offset their lower jutsu count, and Brandish's weaker jutsu would offset their larger jutsu count, forcing them to be good at switching between elements and actually giving them more than 14 jutsu per element to do so with.
It's just kind of weird, and there isn't really much of a benefit to way it functions besides being able to do non lethal damage in a very roundabout way. Why not just make it so that you touch the seal, provide a certain rank of chakra, and then create a relevant elemental dragon of that rank.
Just recently the worker class was changed drastically from how it was explained to me by Ergo. Now with the new modifications you're actually punishing people who decided to become double workers. Mostly with the lifetime discipline perk as now instead of an NPC you require an RPC to pass away. While there are numerous things wrong with that I'll state the most obvious. Not a single person in this guild is just going to off their character for the sake of someone else. Which was discussed between ergo and myself in regards to me gaining a lifetime discipline grand master npc. Secondly if you read the discipline further it states that the people of this discipline are to never become masters until their master has passed. Now this horribly stunts the growth of worker's as again, not a single person in this guild is going to willingly let their character die, that's the reality of it. So anyone who chose double worker is now stuck at journeyman for everything because double worker's have to take all three disciplines.
AandOE
Ergo War
BlackFruity
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:00 pm
Alright, there's a lot here, so let me know if I missed anything! Responses are spoilered in the quotes to save on space.
The Wolf of Asgard
Rare Materials was always about smithing one type of rare material. If there was a change in the wording, then it was to make that clearer. You don't need to take it for things like iron and steel, which the vast majority of weapons and armor are made from.
With regard to the Worker changes, I believe I told you that the first person to ever take it gets an NPC and everyone afterward gets an RPC. I'm very sorry if that wasn't clear or if I'm misremembering! More major changes to how it works would have to come during a class rework, which isn't likely to happen until after the current stuff the crew is working on gets finished. In the meantime, is there an idea you're kicking around that might make it more useful, in your opinion? No guarantee it'll get put into effect, but it could be a valuable starting point for how we look at reworking it if/when we get to that point.
Hazaan
If I'm understanding correctly, the primary question is whether Maruton is treated separately from elemental Ninjutsu when determining learning limits. Currently, unless they're from a class or discipline that mirrors your slots for your different elements, all of your slots come from the same pool (i.e. you have 6 non-mirrored slots and two elements, so you could have 2 Maruton, 2 Doton, and 2 Fuuton, or 1 Maruton, 1 Doton, and 4 Fuuton, etc.
To address your second question, things are currently balanced so that a class primarily gives what it's good at, which is why Buki/Tai get so little in the way of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu while the reverse is also true. I can't promise that we'll get to look at rebalancing the classes soon (we're currently in the middle of a large project as-is), but do you have something you'd like us to take a look at if/when we do?
Rocket Punches
Your post is long, so I'm going to address things in order. Please let me know if I miss something or misunderstand.
The rationale for not giving AC for crafting (unless you're of the worker class) is that the way a shinobi grows is by honing their mind and body; out of character, it's because having smithing grant AC made it ridiculously easy for shinobi to bypass having to interact with their Kage and other members and rank up at a very high rate. The main draw of it is intended to be the ability to create items without burning through custom slots. I'm not sure what you mean by getting paid from thin air; could you elaborate on that? Your employer (be it a shop or Village or RPC) should be the one paying you for the ranked jobs. The special-rank jobs represent you actually making something for your own use, which is why they don't give Ryou or AC.
The draw of Rare Materials smithing is that a character can focus on crafting with something that wouldn't typically fall under the purview of any of the other smithing types.
The capping of techniques at S+ is something that was decided a very, very long time ago that at some point got muddled because training crew and retaining those memories is like playing a big game of telephone. When it becomes apparent that there isn't a common understanding on something major like this, we try to make sure everyone is on the same page for future questions. We try our best to make sure that major issues are addressed as they come up, but please understand that there is no apparent difference between a widespread issue and an isolated one unless we get a lot of questions regarding it, in which case we try to be as prompt about clearing up the confusion as possible. I believe all mission updates in the recent past have had guild-wide announcements through Gaia.
We're more than willing to hear your feedback, since you seem like you have some ideas on how things should be changed; just be aware that we're currently working on other things and it's not likely to get properly addressed in the near future. As always, it's a good rule of thumb that you should quote people to get as prompt a response as possible. If that fails to garner someone's attention, usually just bugging them some other way works. I asked around about your PMs and everyone said they'd responded, so would you mind telling me who hasn't? I'll pester them for you.
Please forgive me for my next response, as it is a bit emotionally driven and I don't want you to take it as personally directed at you and I don't want it to reflect badly on the guild as a whole. It's spoilered and not related to any of your other questions, so you can skip it if you want.
I will preface it with this: I'm very sorry you feel that we don't care for the guild and that we don't care that some people do.
That being said, there is absolutely no basis to stand on when saying that we simply don't care, at least from my point of view; we are volunteering our own free time to do a frequently thankless job that involves dealing with a large number of people and much of what we do goes without recognition. I greatly dislike the assertion that we aren't doing certain things out of malice or lack of care or whatever, because we do a lot that won't necessarily get seen for quite a while. I appreciate that it can sometimes look that we might not care or that we don't do anything, but we wouldn't be doing any of this if we didn't care; the guild would just shut down, the content would be removed, and that would be it. I'm sure you didn't mean to come off as abrasive or confrontational, but as someone who has devoted a serious chunk of their life to this guild and sees what goes into it, there is literally no other way for me to read it.
I think you may have a point about the slot allocation for the Ninjutsu disciplines. This may be something we revisit along with other suggestions for the classes once we're done with our current projects.
Naomi Tenshu
This is something we can take a look at, though it may not be soon. As it stands, the main idea behind that technique is having a small amount of damage that will almost definitely get through, but I agree that there are ways to get that done that make more sense.
We've talked about this before yes. But you informed me that as Lucifer was created she was the first to take that discipline. So I would have the Npc for lifetime discipline would I not?
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:21 pm
Oh! Yes, I'd forgotten that bit. AandOE has gone to bed for the night, but hopefully he or someone else will have an answer soon.
The Wolf of Asgard
AandOE
Ergo War Vice Captain
Enduring Guildsman
Offline
Hazaan
Offline
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:35 am
Ergo War
I simply felt the difference between a class that grants mirroring and one that doesn't feels very significantly different. More so than the bonuses granted by the Buki/Tai classes versus their layman counterparts but perhaps I'm missing it and it truly is balanced.
As such, I'm not gonna push towards certain changes. Just bringing what I thought was unbalanced into the light. I know how much work goes into a guild and its systems so I would never claim to know them better than the crew as a whole.
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:42 am
Ergo War
1) ( Numbering for clarity in responses. ) In regards to getting paid from thin air, Mam's explanation was that no one was going to pay us for tinkering around. Well, that didn't make much sense to me, because we do get paid, and that justification would seem to imply that we should get AC. But, honestly, considering how many people are stuck in offices or elsewhere waiting on people, and how hostile that system is to people interacting with it, I really think it should reward something in AC. Even if you put a cap on the number non-workers can run in a week, that'd be WAY better than just not giving anything. Right now it's just asking people to put in time for nothing, because there's no guarantee they'll actually be able to use what they make when push comes to shove, and it doesn't confer any meaningful advantages. Being able to make your own chakra steel weapon is neat, conceptually, but it's functionally no different from going to Takumi or a village smith and getting something made. The system doesn't have hooks for what advantages you get from being a better smith, and if you make something and try to use it, well, it hasn't been approved by anyone so the crew could easily just shut it down.
This isn't an attack on you, honestly, but that justification doesn't seem to hold water either. Because you're saying it's a problem with people not interacting with their kage, but being worker class doesn't remove that problem if it's actually significant and you can be worker class without being a civilian RPC. So why isn't it a problem if worker class RPCs ignore the rest of the village? At the end of the day my original suggestion was only half AC for non-workers, to make interacting with jobs outside of the times Kages give permission to earn AC, a little more justifiable, because right now that's the only time I've seen anyone interact with crafting in a meaningful manner. It makes sense, too, because workers are punished with weakness for engaging with the job system, and normal RPCs either don't interact unless under special conditions or ignore it entirely. Buffing worker class to be a class that gets more customs and giving non-workers comparable rewards but more limited access to the system would achieve the same results while making workers viable as properly involved RPCs and letting normal RPCs interact with the system.
That last bit is especially relevant to me, because again I like the system. There's just no incentive to interact with it. You're punished on some front either way, be it with an exceedingly weak RPC or a slog through the smithing trees. There's no explanation of tangible benefits to doing so, I can't sell stuff I make or gather, it requires me to spend an inordinate amount of time for nebulously defined crafting skills, and there's no guarantee I'm going to actually be able to make what I want when I get to the other side.
2) I get the draw of rare material smithing, that's not really the point though. The point is that limiting the people who take it to a singular rare material does the same as the job system in punishing them for no reason, and moreover kinda breaks the whole rare materials system. It punishes them for taking it, it punishes people who might want to use it. Rare material smiths may get the ability to create with something most don't, but they lose another type of functional smithing (armor, weapon, etc) by taking it already, so it already has a drawback. It already limited those smiths, especially considering the functional smithing types regularly require a basic smithing type that doesn't allow you to make anything more than common hardware, like blacksmithing.
Finally, it makes the rare materials gathering pointless for everyone else. Previously, when there wasn't a limit on number, a rare materials smith could serve a village by at least turning their gathered materials into something. Now? If I mine and get something good, there's no reason to take it if there's no rare material smith of that type in my village - and with the level of activity in the guild there's a good chance there just isn't a rare material smith of the type I want in existence anywhere in the guild, let alone my village. I won't be able to use it, and neither will anyone else. So cool, I rolled a 30 or whatever when mining. That's great, I should get something cool, but that cool thing is basically a paper weight because my rare material smith almost certainly can't use it anymore.
3) Cool, I get that this was something that was agreed on in the past. I'm not arguing that it should be changed. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that the head fight mod, ostensibly the person we're supposed to talk to about this, told half a dozen people this wasn't the case, and then that only got cleared up in Discord to like one person, who then subsequently disseminated that info to me. If I don't have a friend in the discord, suddenly I'm running around thinking things work differently than they do, and I have no way to know otherwise because I got booted for basically being mad at someone who was harassing me. ( Also in regards to updates to missions, the rescaling of AC rewards for the Evacuation (thread) missions was never announced. I just got told about it when I was denied the ability to claim one of them. They just changed suddenly. As did apparently rare materials smithing, and several other things across the guild. )
4) I sent Mam a couple PMs that never got answered. He can feel free to ignore them now, because they're outdated. But when I posted this it had been a couple days or longer since I sent questions or followups to two other mods. They've since answered those PMs, so I'm not going to name them here, but neither had answered when I posted here.
5) My implication wasn't that you didn't care about the guild, just that the crew didn't, and haven't in general, seem to care about normal members' input. Like, Kerron rewrote a bunch of stuff and got crickets in response. I'm giving feedback and getting silence for a month or more at a time, or a dismissive response the rest of the time. Someone who doesn't have the discord is trying to get an answer to questions for weeks and getting nothing even with quotes. I'm not asking you guys to do stuff immediately, outside of maybe acknowledge that someone actually checks the threads more than once a month. In most cases I don't quote people for feedback, because I realize that you all are busy and a lot of feedback is inherently non-critical, and thus not worth immediately grabbing your attention on. I don't need to distract you from what you're working on, but it would be nice for someone to acknowledge that I and others have said something.
Also, it's kinda disheartening as a member to point out stuff, get no response, and then see the only publicly announced updates for months at a time be simple little clarifications or small tweaks. More so when things are getting clarified in the discord but not updated in the guild to reflect clarifications, and the crew is constantly contradicting itself. It's doubly disheartening to see stuff around that seems broken, or unfinished, that's already in the guild, getting ignored to add more stuff - even if that stuff is cool like alteration styles.
Like, most of the jutsu in the guild isn't up to date, relying on definitions that include characters or items that aren't even in the guild. Maruton has Rinnegan techs and a handful of bukijutsu techs, for instance. Most of the bloodlines are neglected and broken, like for example Kinmukugan which just has a bunch of techniques that don't do anything functional because they don't interact with guild systems (cool, my kunai go "faster" but it doesn't say how much so that's pointless) and received a heavy handed nerf at some point in the past. And I pointed out a massive flaw, at least in my opinion, in the Ninjutsu class that you didn't even address in your response here. Puppets are barely functional, and while I am working on a revamp of my own and have been told Hurrak is working on smaller changes, it doesn't change the fact that they basically just don't work right now and that my Genin needed one of Mam's RPCs stepping in to get a puppet, and still has locked formless that's E rank despite having B ranked body because I can't buy the books I need to rank said formless. ( The highest tier of said books (the mechanics manual 3) doesn't even exist anywhere in the guild for purchase, last I checked, and if it does now, well, there's another example of something getting updated that no on was told about.) Speaking of, formless needs a better explanation and to be easier to find. Stage 2 implants are inaccessible to anyone who hasn't been in the guild forever (and even most of those who have) or those with a bijuu, all but one of which are crew anyways, and are expensive enough at the lowest level as to make them basically inaccessible in any normal member. ( I got publicly ridiculed for pointing this out, and retroactively banned for how I responded to the person who was ridiculing me a week earlier despite having been warned and basically completely avoiding contact with them since the warning, which consequently is why I'm here posting this. Anywho... ) Genjutsu is hyper outdated. All the summons are outdated. All the summons listings are outdated, and mods have actively rebuffed at least one member for asking that they be correctly updated to reflect current availability, and there are a couple completely unfinished summons just sitting in the listing thread. The jobs system doesn't have a centralized system explanation.
This is all stuff I have brought up before. It's fine for that stuff to be a problem. My issue is with the fact that I'm hearing about stuff like an economic system potentially coming down the pipe, while all this stuff is broken. I get that you're all volunteers, I've run a guild the size of SN alone before, so I appreciate the effort involved. The non-responses and addition of systems while other stuff is out and out busted is what I find perturbing.
Edit: I am in no way trying to belittle you or the crew, but take that frustration and apply it through a lense where you’re volunteering time digging into systems but it seems like no one cares, and you have no influence. Where you’re doing work that no one even acknowledges they’ve seen despite posting it in a public space. Where you want to help make something better, but have no power to do so. Where a fair number of the people with the power to do so don’t seem to be assigned to actually doing stuff, and regularly tell you and others that they are specifically not doing stuff for one reason or another. Where said people seem to contradict each other constantly. Then remove the most direct method of conversing with them, and you’ll understand my perspective on this. I don’t dislike the people in the crew, it’s just frustrating to be able and willing to help out and be denied the opportunity for years across multiple guilds. I’ve been offering to help with large guilds like SN for the better part of a decade and getting ignored. I’ve been giving feedback and getting ignored. Beating my head against the same wall, for years and I’m here doing it again, and getting the same sense that it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter how much stuff needs fixing. It doesn’t matter how short staffed a guild is. It doesn’t matter if I rewrite an entire section of the guild. It isn’t even going to get looked at, because it never gets looked at and no one cares to look at it. I could work on a puppets system overhaul, but let’s be realistic here, we both know that’s a waste of my time. I’m going to do it, because I genuinely care about the guild but I fully expect to do that work and get nothing in return.
I understand your frustration, I really do, and I hope you understand mine now.
Allow me to address number five in sections as the trend has been going.
1. Kerron has in fact been helping me with the rewrites and I have expressed my gratitude to him on several occasions and even taken his rewrites to put them into the overall rewrite when the entire system goes live again.
2. The reason you keep getting silence is because you keep bringing up changes that we are A, aware of, or B not working on right now. Which you have been told several times.
3. On the topic of adding new things without fixing the old, yes I have already jumped mam's a** about this. No new content will be released until we finish with the taijutsu rewrites, the bloodline rewrites, and the class rewrites.
4. On the topic of updating things guild side, yes I will be counseling the others to begin using the fix it thread as it's intended. IE a patch notes of sorts.
5. Guild description section exists for a reason bud.
6. Yes maruton does have rinne techs, for two reasons. The rinne is insanely hard to get, as it should be. Second, because those moves are all limited/gimped versions of their true selves without the rinne. So you can still do that cool shockwave of death, shinra tensei, without having it. It just wont be as powerful.
7. Puppets, yes the entirety of that system is being reworked from the ground up by Harruk. Leave the dead horse dead mate.
8. Implants, yes they need to be overhauled dramatically because they are from a point before we did the sweeping chakra nurf a long time ago. That being said, its not on any of our radars right now because we are trying to focus on getting these rewrites done. If you look at how many people use that as opposed to taijutsu and bukijutsu you'll see where our priorities have to be.
9. Genjutsu being outdated. I am sorry but thats simply incorrect on every level. Genjutsu was ENTIRELY rewritten by lanfear and taorito just before they left less then four months ago. So that claim is simply invalid.
10. Summon's being out of date, again invalid, I know for a fact Ariel recently updated them to include the current list of practitioners and sages.
11. Yes we have some unfinished summons but they are back lined just like the implant system for the same reason.
12. In regards to your comment that you have been ignored, this too is simply invalid. I personally have screenshots from every mod you pm'ed with responses to said pm's. I do not appreciate people dragging their names through the mud or implying they are failing do their jobs.
Lastly this is just a bit of advice from one mod to a member. If you have been beating your head against a wall as you say for so long, and trying so hard to help out, yet always get the same response. Have you considered the possibility that its not your content your creating but the way you go about addressing the issue? Your not stupid by any means so I find it hard to believe that your content would be the problem.
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:52 am
“Aziel The Risen”
1. That’s good to hear, I hadn’t heard about it but Kerron’s good people.
2a. If y’all are aware of something, it’d be nice to know that so I don’t keep suggesting stuff about it. So far as I can remember, I’ve only gotten that on the puppets front, and I guess that’ll come up later. For the most part the responses I’ve gotten have only been explanations of how systems work or why they exist, as opposed to engagements with my feedback.
2b. I’ve gotten some to the same questions, but for the most part can’t recall being told anything multiple times. Certainly not in this thread. Like, and this isn’t me trying to be disrespectful to Mam, I really really want to stress that, but when I say “thing X seems broken or like it could be done better”, “this is why thing X is the way it is” isn’t an answer or acknowledgement of my critique, it’s a dismissal of it. I brought up something I think is a problem, so giving me justification for why the thing I feel is a problem exists and not addressing the details of my critique is more of a sidestep than a response. In that scenario my concerns aren’t addressed through explanation or discussion, they’re just ignored because the person responding has a reason to ignore them. Not once has anyone responded to me pointing out that the job system essentially punished people for choosing to engage with it. Ergo and Mam also, at least from my perspective, gave me different answers on the same thing. To which I responded by continuing the dialogue and adjusting my suggestions. So I’m not sure what you want from me here? Just not try to continue discussing things that I think are a problem after I’m told why the thing I think doesn’t work exists? Or not expect my feedback to be acknowledged? I’m rather confused by this, as much of what I’ve posted has either involved me asking for clarification in response to a response, or not been addressed.
3. Cool, that was my only gripe since coming back to SN, and something I’d like to see avoided since it’s both a mistake I’ve made before, and one that has killed several guilds I was involved in over the years. This is, like most of the responses here, mostly what I wanted in return. Just a, “hey, we’re already doing this”. Because I don’t know.
4. Cool, see end of previous response.
5. I have no idea what this is in response to, sorry.
6. Thanks for clarifying. I think that’s a little silly personally, but at least I know why it’s there now because it seemed out of place.
7. I’m not going to leave the dead horse dead because I bought the horse and am invested in it no longer being dead. I had some ideas and shared them but feel like I kinda got ignored on that front. Like, I clearly care about puppets and have ideas I want to share, and apparently y’all are working with Kerron on rewrites and stuff but outside of a brief conversation with Hurrak in which she didn’t seem terribly interested in my ideas, no one has asked me for input - despite me seeing it and working on something of my own volition and discussing it with other people in the guild chat and trying to get them involved. I’d still like to contribute, but someone PMed me after I posted the last message here and made it seem like there’s no point in continuing what I’m doing, so again, it seems like a willingness to help out on my part is relatively pointless from where I stand. Like, that’s something I was openly working on. I shared a lot of my ideas with crew, including the work I already started, which was an annotated revision of the kugutsu listing. I haven’t heard a thing since, and that’s exactly what I’m talking about when I say I get silence back and my work or interest is ignored.
8. Sure, I’m not saying implants should be a priority, never said that about any of my feedback. The only thing I asked for was communication, I haven’t once demanded that anyone do exactly what I’m asking for them to do. I get that there’s more important things, as I pointed out in my response to Ergo. I’m not asking for a commitment to doing things about the feedback I post. Just clarification if I’m missing something or acknowledgement that it’s been seen, maybe discussion of some sort when there’s a discussion to be had. Implants were really only here as an example. None of my feedback is demanding that things get fixed, but it’d be nice to not get a void or worse. All I got when I posted about implants was literally me getting trolled off the discord entirely. Rin inquired outside of the main chat as to what I was talking about, and then didn’t respond when I answered.
9. I mean, it’s full of wonky formatting, empty entries, and oddly worded things so that seems like it’s not the case. Unless you’re talking about how it functions, in which case I was aware of that, but am speaking specifically of the jutsu listings.
10. Okay, well, I’m looking at the names on the listings themselves as I type this and they’re still not updated. Which is the thing someone asked about and was told wouldn’t be getting done back in October. Like I’m looking at the listing for bears and Mal isn’t listed there even though Chet has the bears. It’s just dead people. Also all of those summons are at least 5 years old, because they’re word for word and name for name what the summonings were, techs excluded, when HV had an exodus to SN around that time. I had an a near identical version of the Wild Cats summons in HV in 2010. So whether HV took them from here or someone brought them over from HV, it’s been a long time since they got any attention. I could have been more clear about the latter bit, though I am certain that the names on the listings themselves are incorrect and that someone who asked was told that wouldn’t be getting fixed.
11. Really just part of the same thing above.
12. I don’t get why you’re trying to take a shot at my integrity here. I have specifically avoided mentioning the names of the mods I interacted with, exception of Mam and Ergo as their involvement is material to the topics, and I tried to stick to just the brass tacks of what was going and not paint them in any kind of light, positive or negative. The post this current series of responses have been directed at was posted several days ago, at which time I had one response which required clarification that hadn’t been returned days afterwards and one response which I had heard nothing back on at all for at least a week, if not more. I did my best to be civil and non-confrontational in those PMs, made double sure I didn’t come across as attacking anyone, which I would have hoped you would have taken note of since you say you have copies of those messages. I wasn’t asking for someone to get punished, just people to answer questions because without access to the discord it’s really hard to communicate with the crew. As I said in response to Ergo, outside of PMs to Mam from like a month ago that aren’t relevant anymore, I have subsequently gotten responses, so I have no idea why you’re attacking me over this like I was saying they still hadn’t responded days later and dragging me through the mud when I specifically went out of my way to not do that to members of the crew. I don’t even know why you think I was trying to in the first place, considering I tried to be very clear I wasn’t out to slam anyone. Hell, I’m not even trying to slam you for not actually reading my response to Ergo before dumping on me about stuff I already clarified, even though you’re doing that to me. I really am trying to be extra civil, and I feel like I’ve said that about a dozen times now and everyone is still reacting like I took a machete to their favorite puppy.
As to the second part of 12, I really don’t know what you’re getting at. Honestly. I’ve tried really hard in this thread to present things in detail and stress that I’m just trying to provide feedback. I’ve tried to remain civil and clear in this response and others, even with you taking shots at me. I’ve avoided calling people out. I’ve not called anyone names, I’ve not leveled accusations of impropriety beyond my central complaint that it didn’t seem like the crew cared about the feed back here. I’ve tried to make sure I was not being too pointed in my critiques. I’ve clarified, as I did in my response to Ergo, that I’m not trying to attack them or anyone when a pointed critique of something is unavoidable. I’ve tried to be constructive when I second people’s input here, and in my responses to crew. I’ve tried to be careful to be general when discussing the crew because, as I’ve said before, I just want to be helpful and I’m not here to attack people.
I’m really just confused as to what you want me to do outside of just not posting feedback, because at the moment it just seems like you don’t like me and don’t want my input, regardless of how careful and clear I am about the nature of said feedback.
Gonna go ahead and repost this since it seems like it got buried.
I guess I'll go ahead and point out that the Nin/Nin jutsu totals seem to be a bit backwards as far as scaling, thanks to Nin/Nin combo giving Elemental Dual Wielder's per element feature to all the disciplines. Elemental Specialist gets 192 total ninjutsu (double class base is 36, plus 4 more jutsu at start from doubling up on the class, and 24 more across the remaining ranks and then multiplied by 3 elements [2 + Maruton] thanks to the Nin/Nin combo features), Elemental Dual Wielder 144, and Elemental Brandish 70, before expansions. The problem here is that's 64 jutsu per element with Specialist, and some elements don't even have that many jutsu period. To top it all off they get the most jutsu total, despite having access to the fewest jutsu overall, and having a not insignificant bump in power to all their jutsu - overwhelm same rank AND ignore elemental weakness. So they have a hell of a lot of powerful jutsu, such that they could throw any A rank jutsu at any other A rank jutsu an win, even if theirs is a fireball and the jutsu it's hitting it a tsunami.
If we slide over to Elemental Brandish, they get 14 slots per jutsu (which roughs out to about 2 per rank), and end up with less overall jutsu, thanks to the downgrade in their jutsu gain, than my Elemental Dual Wielding Puppeteer. And all their jutsu would lose to my puppeteer's jutsu, and that of any other class in the guild that gets ninjutsu. So, their jutsu is objectively weaker than everyone, and they have half the total jutsu of the next highest discipline despite having access to more techniques than anyone else. Makes it pretty hard to justify taking that discipline.
Flipping the Elemental Brandish and Elemental Specialist's jutsu gain, and tweaking it slightly so the reduction isn't as harsh, and the gain isn't as big, would see all the disciplines getting between 30 and 40 jutsu per element. Specialist's extra power and inability to be overwhelmed would offset their lower jutsu count, and Brandish's weaker jutsu would offset their larger jutsu count, forcing them to be good at switching between elements and actually giving them more than 14 jutsu per element to do so with.
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:15 pm
Rocket Punches
2a. I cant speak on behalf of all the mods but when someone asks me what I am working on I have always told them the same thing, rewrites.
2b[A] I cant speak on behalf of the others again, but when someone comes to me with an idea I have always given it a chance, I might think its superfluous, but I will always explain why it is the way it is and either validate or invalidate the critique in regards to the proposed change. Meaning I will tell them if its something worth considering or something that will simply get stonewalled. 2b.{b} I am sorry but I dont see how not getting AC is a punishment. You get to develop your characters skills outside of being a professional killer. If character development is a punishment I dont know what to say.
7. Wanting to work on a system goes two ways. I personally appreciate content people bring to me because it shows effort and I like that. But at the same time people have repeatedly failed to understand one simple fact. If we dont want to change something to a certain way its for a reason. Mainly because it either A wont fit with the current meta, or B it doesnt fit our plan for the guild.
8. This is mostly because of what I said, we simply dont have a plan to work on these right now. The most likely reason they reacted the way they did is because they know this. They dont bother bringing it up because they know full well we arn't in a position to even consider how we will change them.
9. The wonky formatting is something we will get to as part of the rewrites along with the blanks and what not. But the system itself is brand new.
10. The problem is your looking at the wrong bloody thread mate. THIS is the one you consult when you need names of whos a sage. The actual listing is for the ORIGINAL summoner, not the sage. Meaning the literally very first person to claim them.
12. Again, I cannot speak for ergo and mam, they can for themselves. But I can with one hundred percent certainty that every other mod you have pm-ed has responded to you. Going to ergo and mam for things is FAR from the best way to handle things.
12B, allow me to make this perfectly clear, I feel nothing towards you, not hate not malice not anything. If I did I would be the first to tell you, any of the mods can tell you that. That being said that was simply an observation on account of the law of averages and common denominators. If you have used the same method with dozens of guilds over the years and the method doesnt work then the laws above and logic dictates that the method is flawed thats simply what I was pointing out.
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