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Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:43 am


To expand on what Alpha said actually creature's wear off summoning sickness during their current controllers next turn. (this means untap step) however, since no player is allowed to gain priority to play spells and abilities during the untap step no one can do anything except untap and if phasing happens, phase stuff in/out. Then the upkeep happens where players get priority to do things so this is why its commonly said that summoning sickness wears off during the upkeep even though it technically wears off at the beginning of the turn.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:19 am


To refresh on regeneration:

A creature cannot be regenerated once it has reached the graveyard, it must be regenerated as it dies/before the end of the turn.

Right?

Hibiki (Neon) Tokai


Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:00 am


Well yes and no.

Think of regeneration like damage prevention. It acts like a shield. What you actually do is activate the regeneration ability. It puts up a shield. When the creature "dies" the regeneration shield replaces being placed into the graveyard with staying in play, tapping, removing from combat, and removing all damage from said creature. So it's actually a replacement effect by rules standards. So in theory you can regenerate whenever you want to. The shield lasts until the end of turn. But it only does something if the creature WOULD die.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:43 am


Thanks for clearing the previous questions up. I had assumed so but wasn't sure on it.

Why is it if you play a Stonewood Invocation on a Bird of Paradise that's attacking and your opponent plays a Sudden Spoiling before damage, that the Bird of Paradise becomes a 5/7?

Liquidor

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Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:01 pm


Because it doesn't o_o

If the scenario you said above includes the timestamps as such. Attack with birds. Stonewood Invocation. Before damage stacks. Sudden Spoiling. then all creatures the attacking player controls (assuming the defending player is the one playing the spoiling domokun ) are 0/2s with no abilities. The effects of stonewood invocation are removed since the spoiling comes AFTER the power/toughness changes of stonewood invocation. If someone told you that the birds still remain a 5/7. Slap them.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:12 am


The new Tribal Enchantment (I missed the pre-release), can I ferret that out with Amoru Scout // Blightspeaker?

Liberi Glacialis

Familiar Gaian


Liquidor

Original Player

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:59 am


Lord Yawgmoth
Because it doesn't o_o

If the scenario you said above includes the timestamps as such. Attack with birds. Stonewood Invocation. Before damage stacks. Sudden Spoiling. then all creatures the attacking player controls (assuming the defending player is the one playing the spoiling domokun ) are 0/2s with no abilities. The effects of stonewood invocation are removed since the spoiling comes AFTER the power/toughness changes of stonewood invocation. If someone told you that the birds still remain a 5/7. Slap them.

So I'm going to have to slap the entire Canadian Judging Team and basically every Judge I know?

I was told it had to deal with a layering rule that most people wouldn't recognize.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:11 am


This is the layering rule you're probably talking about.


11/1/2005: You apply power/toughness changing effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (b) all other effects not specifically applied in c, d, or e; (c) changes from counters; (d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness.

Now then, Given that layering rule this means two things.
1. Since stonewood invocation is NOT a static effect, ruling it out of layer D, it applies in layer B.
2. Since sudden spoiling defines it's numbers this also eliminates it from layer D. Making it a layer B effect like humility (since the cards are similar in function).
3. We know that if you pump a creature and then a humility/humble is played the pump effect is wiped away from the 'lose all abilities' and 'all creatures become 1/1, 0/1s.' effects.
4. Given the above three this means in your example above since the Stonewood Invocation is played first and the Sudden Spoiling after it, the Sudden Spoiling takes a humility/humble style approach and removes all a abilities and power toughness modifiers applied in all layers equal to or below it. (Meaning the only layer it can't remove is a Layer A effect but since we have none of those in this scenario we don't have to worry). This will make the birds a 0/2 with no abilities because of the timestamp order in which the two spells were played.

Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic


Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:13 am


Liberi Glacialis
The new Tribal Enchantment (I missed the pre-release), can I ferret that out with Amoru Scout // Blightspeaker?

I'm going to say yes for now. Since the rules text on both of those cards says "Rebel Card" and not "Rebel Creature Card" and the tribal enchantment is a Rebel Card as far as that goes, then yes. Unless Wizards decides to make it so you can't with some rules twist that I'm unaware of.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:22 am


Lord Yawgmoth, I think that that's why the tribal enchantments were made, just for that reason. If they weren't made for card effects like that, I really don't see a point for them (yet).

Hibiki (Neon) Tokai


Master Molder of WINGS

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:56 am



Have some questions.
1.
Can I counter my friend's morph from getting into play in any way.
2.
Can I put one of the creatures I sacrificed into play when I play Dread Return for it's flashback cost?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:44 am


zodiac rooster

Have some questions.
1.
Can I counter my friend's morph from getting into play in any way.
2.
Can I put one of the creatures I sacrificed into play when I play Dread Return for it's flashback cost?


1. You can counter it when he plays it face down as a 2/2 creature spell yes. But if you mean after it hits play can you stop him from turning it face up then no. Morph doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.

2. No. Targets are chosen before costs are paid. You target the creature you want to bring back from the dead with Dread Return before you sacrifice the three creatures for its flashback cost.

Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic


Liquidor

Original Player

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:38 am


Can I pay the X from an X spell (ie Consume Spirit) that has been removed from the game via Grinning Totem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:48 am


Yes.

Unlike things like Mind's Desire and other weird spells in the Grinning Totem-esque fashion, the totem doesn't say "Play it without paying its mana cost" it just says "Play it as though it were in your hand". That line means you have to pay the mana for any spell you remove with Grinning Totem. So, it's just like you're playing the X spell normally as if you really had one of your own in your hand.

Lord Yawgmoth
Crew

Shadowy Lunatic


Master Molder of WINGS

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:23 am



I was wondering.
If I have Gibbering Decent and as the only card in my hand I have a Pact of the Titan.
At the end of my opponents turn I play the Pact and thus I have Hellbent
Then the next round.
If I keep my card, and thus loose Hellbent.
Will I have to pay the Pacts cost in the next upkeep.

Or does the first skipped upkeep count as my "next upkeep"?
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The Original Magic the Gathering Guild

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