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 Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:51 pm
Best: I'm so happy to see people voting for Eldigan! I thought I'd be all alone voting for him. A lot about him has already been said, but let me add on to it. A complaint I've seen people have with Camuses is that they know what they are doing is wrong, but they go on anyway. Eldigan is not just a loyal knight. He's a loyal knight that knows what's right. And when Raquesis talks to him and tells her to believe her and his old friend Sigurd... He listens. He changes his course of action. You know what happens next. All throughout his screentime in FE4, he is Sigurd's friend, but he is also looking out for his country. He is suspicious of what is going on from the moment he sees Sigurd holed up in Evans, and knows that he has steamrolled through Verdane. He wants to protect his country, but he still knows who is friends really are. He knows that Chagall is an awful person, but he obeys him for the sake of his country. As he says, no matter what, no matter how he dies, Augustria is doomed. To me, fighting Eldigan is FE4's first real sign that things have gotten serious beyond repair. There is no turning back after chapter 3, the writing is on the wall. Worst: Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay YenYen FayFay Fen'Yay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Ho'yay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay Yen'fay No'way Jose' At least you get time to get to know who Selena is. At least she is introduced early in the game you you get time to see her act in context and know she is a good person before you face her. At least she isn't Yen'fay. You can see me rail against Yen'fay elsewhere, but I think he is definitely worst. How are Eldigan and Yen'Fay alike? They are both victims of terrible execution.
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:01 pm
Yen'fay also isn't on the camus list. He was once, but was taken off, either because he's not considered one or because some random guy was dumb.
However, I can't consider him worst. His character still hits me. His reason for fighting is actually legit. I'll give him the award of worst execution, but at least he makes sense. With Yen'fay, you want more, because more was warranted. With Selena, you get more but she's revealed to just be a weak and what I would consider to be vain person who just infuriates me.
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:15 pm
Nomad Rath Yen'fay also isn't on the camus list. He was once, but was taken off, either because he's not considered one or because some random guy was dumb. However, I can't consider him worst. His character still hits me. His reason for fighting is actually legit. I'll give him the award of worst execution, but at least he makes sense. With Yen'fay, you want more, because more was warranted. With Selena, you get more but she's revealed to just be a weak and what I would consider to be vain person who just infuriates me. The Wikia is dumb and full of unfinished rambling articles. I wouldn't take it as the one and only source. Yeah, it's been a while since I've played Sacred Stones. And I agree that Selena is nowhere near best. However, is the fact that she ends up being week willed and unable to act on her gut feelings really so bad? I mean, it's bad, but as far as characters go, it is a genuine dilemma. Vigarde saved her life and she has served him tirelessly. Going against that is hard, and to be fair "my liege was killed and is now a zombie being controlled by a demon" isn't exactly the conclusion I would jump to first. Yen'Fay's writing is just terrible. It hurts me, because I do genuinely like him and Say'ri, and their story had all the elements to be great. The execution is just... arghghsdflg.
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:18 pm
Best: Ishtar.
Satan's girlfriend does it best. I expanded upon why last time this was the topic. No need to rehash. Anyone could go find the post if they really wanted to.
Worst: Shiharam.
Sit your a** down and listen to Tanith, you little ******** imagine Yen'fay isn't on the list because are you really a Camus if you're blackmailed into it?
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:36 pm
Nomad Rath *looks through the whole archetype lists* ...some of these have been edited and I do not agree with some of the characters listed or not listed in places.
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:46 am
Best: Lloyd
Oh, this is such a hard choice. I love Camus characters in general, but the really good ones seem to be in games I haven't played. So, I'm voting for Lloyd. Both he and Linus (depending on which path is taken) are willing to listen to Eliwood and his gang, but Lloyd is the one who would actually accept death after finding his brother dead. It's mostly just in his dialogue with Nino, but it definitely makes him feel like the more honorable and loyal of the two brothers.
Worst: Shiharam
I was almost going to vote for Hetzel, but I wasn't really sure that he even qualified as a Camus archetype. Therefore, Shiharam. Most of the other Camuses have been loyal their whole lives, but with Shiharam, his backstory outright states that he left a corrupt system to find a better life. Why would he hesitate now, when it's clear that Ashnard doesn't care about what happens to his own people? It could be argued that Ashnard is even worse to his people than the Begnion senate, so his loyalty to Daein just... doesn't feel right.
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:48 am
I'm not so sure that Hetzel qualifies as a Camus, either. He does fit the mold for a camus, except that he has no true loyalty to land or lord. He's like marquess Santaruz in FE7; he was swayed by his fear into taking part in something sinful and comes to deeply regret it. He doesn't stand up to the other senators because he knows what will happen to him. He's scared to piss of Lekain. So it's fear, not loyalty, that drives his actions. I would say that he is not a camus. I have a soft spot for Hetzel, because fear does horrible things to people and it makes me sad.
Also, some trivia from the wiki: "Unused battle dialogue data suggests that Hetzel could be spared. For whatever reason, this was not included in the final version of the game."
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:00 am
Queen Melethia Dagon Nomad Rath *looks through the whole archetype lists* ...some of these have been edited and I do not agree with some of the characters listed or not listed in places. I would say no, he is not loyal to Walhart or even Chon'sin. He's loyal to his sister, which does not really fit the definition of a camus. Mustafa, however, IS loyal to his country and soldiers, though not so much Gangrel by that point. He points out that Gangrel will murder his family if he doesn't fight, but also says that he would still fight for the wellbeing of his country. I'd honestly say he qualifies as a camus. The threat was just icing on the cake.
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:44 am
That's kind of what I was thinking, Rath. One could argue that he's loyal to Ashera, but that aspect is greatly overshadowed by his fear of the other senators.
One question about Mustafa, though: does he actually say he's fighting for the wellbeing of his country, or is it just implied?
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:10 pm
Quote: One question about Mustafa, though: does he actually say he's fighting for the wellbeing of his country, or is it just implied? It seems like he only fights for his country because he's doesn't really have much of a choice in the matter. It's either he fights for plegia, or his family will pay the price for trying to rebel against Gangrel's tyrannical rule...
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:43 pm
You could potentially make an argument for Shiharam and his platoon being threatened into going against their better judgement. During Defending Talrega, Haar all but outright says that their families will be in danger if they don't go along with the will of the Daein higher-ups, including flooding Talrega.
But obviously that's not where people's issues with him lie. I agree that he was pretty poorly conceived, but Jill, Haar, and the whole of Defending Talrega is just so delicious (and one of my personal favorite FE chapters) that I can't really hate him too much, even though Tanith serves him just desserts and Haar has a plan to get everyone back to Begnion after Shiharam dies (at the cost of their pride, sure, but why wasn't that an option, Shiharam?).
He's not loyal to Daein (especially if he has similar thoughts to Haar on the whole thing). He is threatened to stay his path. But he's still counted as a Camus.
Here's a problem I have with a lot of FE archetypes, particularly character ones. Are we going to talk about the characters, or are we going to talk about how they conform to the archetype? Well, obviously we have to talk about the archetype, but how much should we conform to the one definition we have been given? Hell, Camus himself becomes playable in two games, albeit not in the game he is "Camus" in. After all, what makes a lot of these characters so great is how they play with and break their archetypes when they conform to them at all. It's why not all of these characters are the same despite them arguably being cut from the same cloth. That's one of the big reasons I voted Eldy for best. His situation plays with the archetype and goes a different direction with it, leaving a huge impact because of how much player involvement plays into the tragedy.
And that's not because I don't know who I'll vote worst if not for Yen'fay. Levail, I guess...
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:54 pm
Mustafa still speaks as a soldier. He's clearly loyal to his country in the way he speaks, just not to Gangrel. The fact that he will take responsibility for his soldiers leaving should prove that he wants what is best for the people and his men. I think he's a Camus. I think he's a good one, for the little time we know him. It was truly the game's peak, for me.
Shiharam is still loyal to Talreaga though, even if not to Daein or Ashnard. That still fits the archetype, even with similar knowledge that Mustafa had about his people/family if they were to change sides. There was still more going on.
I still don't think Yen'fay fits, when I continue to think about it. The Camus is supposed to be a character that we don't want to fight because we know they're a good person. We DON'T know that Yen'fay isn't really so bad until after we've already fought him. Plus, he doesn't really care about anybody except Say'ri. Camus' are supposed to fight for the betterment of their country or loyalty to their lord. Yan'fay doesn't really have either. I think he's a cool character, just not a Camus. Pheros and Cervantes are more of a Camus than he is. (Pheros is also a non-weak or vain Selena, imo)
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:40 pm
Shiharam willingly abandoned his homeland for Daein. He made his bed so then he gets to lie in it.
Yen'fay did not willingly abandon his homeland to serve Walhart. He was blackmailed from the start.
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Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:48 pm
This week's Best/Worst is Unit of FE8. Though this is probably going to be a talk more for worst than best...
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Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:20 pm
Best: Seth
Worst: Ewan
Knoll and Syrene often get a lot of flack. And while they're obviously not contenders for best of anything...
Knoll can be insta-promoted into another staff user who can also provide summon utility. And there are a number of chapters that are still in the game where that is of legitimate use where Knoll won't even take up someone's deployment slot because it's chapters that let you deploy a lot. Also great for luring tactics. Phantoms are another set of eyes in a FoW setting that also scout.
Syrene has flying utility. Enough said. Even if she brought nothing else to the table, she'd still be of great use in the Gorgon Nest. And for ferrying foot units around if you needed her to.
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