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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:50 am
Red Monkey (Dark Avenger) Saiyan Master Vegeta @ Pym: Super Kaioken and Super Dragon Fist are both non-canon attacks, along with GT and it's associated listings. @ Akabane: If I recall correctly, there was no specific statement of the gravity on Grand Kai's planet, thus it is assumed to be normal. I included them mainly because many fans out there consider it canon. Most of us only include just the Manga, Mine includes GT to be fair to all of the DBZ fans.
There would be no reason just to power up Gokou and co. just for the sake of a "movie".
As for Kai's planet? Who says they have to give an exact gravitational pull?
We've seen Gokou pulled face down by it when he first ever set foot on it. =/
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:29 pm
A rule of thumb for debating: If something is never shown, or never said, then it isn't factual.
Remember, North Kai's planet had the extra gravitational pull. This doesn't necessarily apply to Grand Kai's planet just because it's another Kai planet. Sure, it can be speculated due to implications, but that simply isn't enough to claim it as true.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:16 pm
Saiyan Master Vegeta A rule of thumb for debating: If something is never shown, or never said, then it isn't factual. Remember, North Kai's planet had the extra gravitational pull. This doesn't necessarily apply to Grand Kai's planet just because it's another Kai planet. Sure, it can be speculated due to implications, but that simply isn't enough to claim it as true.
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nlYD_nc0QM
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:28 am
You only referred to "Kai's" planet. That could have been any of them, and since you said: Kuroudo Akabane Who says they have to give an exact gravitational pull? . . . When it is already factual that North Kai's planet has a 10x gravitational pull, I could only assume that you were referring to Grand Kai's planet, which didn't state anything about gravity.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:33 pm
Saiyan Master Vegeta You only referred to "Kai's" planet. That could have been any of them, and since you said: Kuroudo Akabane Who says they have to give an exact gravitational pull? . . . When it is already factual that North Kai's planet has a 10x gravitational pull, I could only assume that you were referring to Grand Kai's planet, which didn't state anything about gravity.
But when he returned to Earth is made it easier for him to move faster since he had been training to moving a in heavier gravitational pull.
You can compare the analogy to this concept:
You start training to be a body builder.
When you start out you only weight 160lbs and can only lift 50lbs max.
Needless to say that you'd have to get really used to your max press of 50lbs before you can even think about adding more weights.
Time passes and now you can press 300lbs max after years of keeping at it.
That 50lbs is going to seen like picking up nothing to you now that you have a 300lbs max press.
Even when he was training in the Frieza Arc, Gokou up this to 100x Earth's gravity max.
Again the result made it so that even Vegita couldn't even follow him who'd improved quite a bit himself.
My point is that training in heavier gravity has always been a common way for DBZ characters, especially Gokou and Vegita, to work on he factor of speed.
You up the dosage one way or another and the more you get used to heavier and heavier gravitational pulls the less and less Earth's gravity will seem like nothing.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:23 pm
Can I say something about the whole gravity issue?
1) Sure, nothing is said in the manga about the planet's gravity (I think...?).
BUT, that doesn't mean we leave out physics! We can tell, that the planet isn't much bigger than your average luxury hotel. Now, back to the physics part of it, we can 'safely assume', according to LAWS of PHYSICS, that are 100% real i might add, that the force of gravity on the anterior planets would be dramatically greater. Besides, doesn't the manga have something about him having trouble walking and such? I thought I saw that once...
anyhoo;
2) Perhaps most importantly, a TON is unit of MASS, not WEIGHT. My AP Physics professor would pull the little hair he has out if he knew of the assumptions made here.
A TON here, would be the same MASS as a TON ANYWHERE ELSE!!!
ANYWHERE.
A ton is a ton.
Mass, not weight.
In other words, we don't count earth's pull when counting tons, we use intruments that offer enough resistance to counter the pull of gravity.
Furthermore, since a ton is a ton anywhere, the only variable would be gravity.
So the "weight" Goku would be lifting, would be X Newtons, or X Newtons per Kilograms (N/Kg).
So in earth terms, he would be lifting several times 40 tons.
All science.
Pinky promise.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Wasn't he on the planet of the kai's when he did that? If so the planet is VERY large.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:34 pm
Koju_the_dark_knight Wasn't he on the planet of the kai's when he did that? If so the planet is VERY large.
I mean it was almost literally a small island in the form of a planet.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:02 am
I'm a tad confused. Which planet was this on? If we can bet a picture, we can see how it compares to earth. EDIT: Disregard that last question. A little research goes a long ways. Grand Kaio's Planet:  Is it big? Yes. Comparatively? No. There are two things that tell us this. a. The rate of curvature. b. The fact that we can see several land marks with the naked eye at exo-orbital levels. Especially trees. Again, this planet is easily smaller than earth, by several times. I stand firm in resolution of this planet having a stronger gravitational pull. BUT, there are probably better things to be debating about, so let's get to something else.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:21 am
1) The size of the planet tells us nothing in DBZ physics. Under the normal laws of gravitation, smaller planets have lower gravity. King Kai's planet is tiny, and has higher gravity than Earth. Clearly, gravity as we know it is being thrown out the window here.
2) The gravity of the planet does not change the weight he was lifting! eek
Yes, if you take something that is 40 tons on Earth, and put it on Jupiter, it'd be a lot heavier than 40 tons. But if you were standing on Jupiter and someone told you that object was 40 tons, it'd be 40 tons on Jupiter, and thus a lot lighter on Earth. It's assumed that the planet you're standing on is your point of reference. Anything else would make no sense.
Apply this to our situation. King Kai says Goku is lifting 40 tons, so Goku is lifting 40 tons. Not "40 tons on Earth, but a lot more here". If he had wanted to say that, he would have.
Now I saw another point brought up so I'll address that too. Someone mentioned that, if the gravity was more intense, the strain on Goku's body from his own mass would be more intense too.
1) We have no idea if the gravity was more intense, or how to measure it.
2) Even if it was, his lifting strength (which is what's in question here) would still be the same.
I was pretty sure we already had this conversation.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:26 am
rikeen90 A ton is a ton. Mass, not weight. In other words, we don't count earth's pull when counting tons, we use intruments that offer enough resistance to counter the pull of gravity. Furthermore, since a ton is a ton anywhere, the only variable would be gravity. So the "weight" Goku would be lifting, would be X Newtons, or X Newtons per Kilograms (N/Kg). So in earth terms, he would be lifting several times 40 tons. All science. Pinky promise. . A ton is a measure of weight, and not a measure of mass. So gravity has already been factored into the equation. If they had said that the mass was, for example, 4000 newtons, then yes you'd be correct. But they didn't. So you aren't. rikeen90 Again, this planet is easily smaller than earth, by several times. I stand firm in resolution of this planet having a stronger gravitational pull. What?!? That's the exact opposite of what should happen. A smaller mass has a weaker gravitation pull, not a stronger one. Ok, so now that it's been re-proven that the lifting feat in that scene was exactly 40 tons, lets move on, and hope we don't have to do this a third time.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:56 am
Okay, first of all. A ton IS a mass unit... Just in case you're a little rusty on physics/science/whatever try wiki'ing it. It goes a long way. We are probably referring to the SI base unit ton, or more commonly, a metric ton. (tonne, aka 1000kg) Quote: Units of mass There are three similar units of mass called the ton: 1. long ton (simply ton in countries such as the United Kingdom which formerly used the Imperial system of weights and measures) is a weight ton or gross ton, and is 3,000- lb. In the UK and most of the areas which used the Imperial system, the metric tonne (1000 kg), which it is conveniently very similar to—less than 2% difference—is the only form of ton legal for trade. * Increasingly, metric tonnes are being used rather than long tons in measuring the displacement of ships. See tonnage. * The long ton is used for petroleum products such as aviation fuel. * Deadweight ton (abbreviation 'dwt') for the capacity of a ship in the number of long tons (2,240 pounds). This measurement is also used in the U.S. tonnage of naval ships. 2. short ton (usually called simply ton, in the USA or sometimes called a net ton) = 2000 lb (exactly 907.18474 kg). * Harbour ton used in South Africa in the 20th century, equal to 2000 pounds or one short ton. 3. metric ton, usually referred to as a tonne, is 1000 kg (or 1 Mg) or approximately 2,204.6 pounds. On your second count, I "would" agree with you, because that is what "should" happen. BUT, We have been shown in the DBU that a smaller planet has more gravity. We have no proof otherwise. Leading me to believe that in the DBU, it goes the opposite way.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:03 am
No it's not. Read the quote you just posted man. Here, I'll even put a better one. Dictionary Ton...a unit of weight, equivalent to 2000 pounds (BTW, pounds are also units of weight) I'm sorry, but you're wrong. As for you're other point, I only remember King Kai's planet fitting this, and one example does not make a trend. I forget, did they say somewhere if planet Vegeta was larger than Earth. ...oh well, either way it doesn't matter, because gravity isn't a factor here.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:07 am
Ok, there is a unit of mass called the ton as well as a unit of weight. I've heard the unit of weight used more often so I assumed that was it. Sorry.
However, you can't assume that it isn't. Only 1 of the three definitions you posted mentions it as that.
Even if it was, we have no method of measuring the gravity of that planet on any basis. So it'd be useless to us.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:00 pm
Well, Akira sure did a great job of being vague...
I guess it's a dead venture...
Oh well, 40 tons is still with EASE after SSJ, so I'm pleased.
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