Worst: Dare I say Hardin...? (Or Selena for being a dumb...)
I don't know help
I object to Hardin. Sure, what made him go from "Marth's Steadfast Buddy" to "Evil Emperor of Evil" is a bit contrived, but it's not like it came completely out of nowhere. What essentially happened was that his latent feelings of envy and despair and all that lovely stuff was multiplied tenfold by Gharnef and the Dark orb. Yeah, a little contrived, but the story that comes out of it definitely has its delicious tragic shades, especially since all of the parties involved are guilty in some fashion, and they were trying to make things work but failed miserably. Akaneia, man.
A LITTLE contrived? Let's be real. It poos all over Hardin's character and he's represented so cheesily. Like.. just look at him. They REALLY want to make sure you can tell he's evil now!
Also, unrelated, but Mallow, I think you're really being way too harsh on Validar... first off, he wasn't killed off. He was defeated and dying and saved by Grima, but he was not killed off. And they're not the same thing, nor is it beyond the capability to have saved him. Validar is quite similar to Nergal in his "chessmaster-style". He's imposing, he's involved in everything throughout the story- he's hardly a pathetic villain. I don't care if you don't like him, but please. He couldn't have been removed from the game- then nobody is pulling the strings to make things happen. Yes, anybody else could be in that roll, but they aren't. He is. Because this is his goal. He has the mind and the ability to do these things. You're stating a lot of 'just do this' as if it's just that easy... what do you think they're trying to do. You're against deus ex machina, and yet you want deus ex machina tactics to be in place? I'm not following.
Formortiis is is the biggest cheesefest villain in Fire Emblem creation. So no, I greatly dispute that statement that he's not worse than Validar, wholeheartedly forever and a half.
His goatee is awesome. You jelly like crazy.
A lot of people had a problem with the fact that Ashnard looks like an obvious villain. Look at that face, those spiky shoulder pads! Ashnard isn't very subtle, but that's not where his strengths as a villain lie. I guess looking like an obvious villain is much more of a problem when the main character is supposed to trust him. But by the time you actually get to see evil emperor Hardin, it's been pretty well established that he is not your friend anymore. Also, psh, General Lang. GEE, do I trust General Lorenz, my main Mercenary man, and two adorable twins? Or do I trust GENERAL LANG?
Again, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't contrived. I personally don't feel he is worst because of what comes from it. Yeah, marrying for politics happens all the time, but what emotions existed couldn't be totally put to rest, and that's where Gharnef came in to multiply them (the dark orb is also stated to have somewhat influenced Gharnef himself). Though of course this is all Mystery of the Emblem talking, so you could easily write it down as a retcon. I don't know, maybe it just bothers you more than it bothers me, but I can't in good consciousness vote him worst.
And Formortiis is in direct conjunction with Lyon, who some great drama can be won from (as well as some not-so-great drama, but still). Lyon is a way better character than Formortiis, but I wouldn't put them nor Hardin at the bottom of the list with the competition they have.
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:11 pm
Your points mostly serve to contradict yourself?
"Validar doesn't do anything that affects the story and we don't see him moving the plot"
*promptly acknowledges that Validar orchestrated everything and lists all the ways he impacts everything*
...Okay. No need for me to reply then. You've summed it up.
*Whoever edited my post to change reply into respect, you crossed a line.
@Mallow: While I don't think Validar is "teh gr8est villain evar," I just wanted to point out that just because his plans didn't work doesn't mean that he wasn't a very smart and ambitious villain. His plan was working up until MU pulled a deus ex machina at the Dragon's Table with the whole premonition remembering thing. That's how I saw it, at least.
To everyone else, I don't think I can give an honest vote this week. There are just so many things that go into being a villain that I just can't pick an overall best villain. Ashnard would top a "badass villain" list, while Nergal would get my vote for "most complex villain." I know I'm leaving out a lot of other good villains, but I think each is the best villain in their own way. Therefore, unless someone convinces me otherwise, I won't be officially voting on this topic. Just wanted to give my thoughts on this. I apologize ahead of time if that sounded presumptuous or something like that.
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:37 pm
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@Mallow: While I don't think Validar is "teh gr8est villain evar," I just wanted to point out that just because his plans didn't work doesn't mean that he wasn't a very smart and ambitious villain. His plan was working up until MU pulled a deus ex machina at the Dragon's Table with the whole premonition remembering thing. That's how I saw it, at least.
I'm not denying that Validar is ambitious, because he certainly is. If trying to revive the Fell Dragon isn't considered ambitious, then I have no idea what would be. I simply don't think he's as smart as he thinks he is. A friend of mine pointed this out to me, and I'll admit this as well: His plan with Valm worked. He wanted Chrom and Walhart to fight and one to come out on top (probably Chrom, because MU is with Chrom, and it'd be easier to get the Fire Emblem if you can mindcontrol someone close to it into grabbing it for you), and that's exactly what happened. Walhart's dead, possible opposition to Grima is down, and the Fire Emblem is near completion.
However, I don't agree that his plan was working up to the unreasonable plot turns at the Dragon's Table. I'd call that closer to a deus ex machina than the suggestion of Grima speaking to the MU directly, because it definitely writes the story out of a corner that it put itself into, but even then, I feel he was more like the villain that continues to shout "Aha! You've fallen right into my trap!" even as he slowly walks backwards into a corner of the room, with the lever for the trap door out of reach.
The problem still amounts to the fact that most of Validar's great achievements are not appreciable by the player in the sense that they are perceived by the characters because we don't see them happen. What we see is him die and be brought back, we see him send us to Valm to kill off Walhart for him-- which implies that he's not strong enough on his own to do it himself, but assumes he's strong enough to handle you, who is strong enough to handle Walhart (???), and we see him take the Fire Emblem after possessing you and take it to the Dragon's Table. And then the MU's miracle memory summoning and amazing strategic mind ruins everything else for him.
He's ambitious and clearly his plans would have worked if everything lined up for him. But we never see it happen, and he's really, really underwhelming and frustrating to sit through as a result, and that's why I think he's the worst villain the series has offered thus far (of the games I have played).
Sorry if I haven't posted sooner but I've been gathering my thoughts on this subject... sweatdrop
Best: This topic is a rather tough one and it involves some personal bias. Some of my top favorite FE villains in the series are Ashnard,Nergal,Alvis, and Manfloy. I think they are the ones that stand out the most in the series to me. And really each and every one of them have certain things to enjoy.
Ashnard isn't the most subtle villain for sure. Once he appears on screen you can tell he is obviously the villain of the game. But does that make it a bad thing? I personally like his motives and what he does villain-wise throughout FE9. I absolutely love his character design and the facial expressions he makes is pretty darn cool. It's like he's a crazed maniac and everyone to him is merely his pawns.(Of course he does have a berserk mode for those that have played FE9 on hard mode) He wants the Lehran medallion for his own personal gain and he'll do any means necessary to get it. He warps Rajaion's mind, a dragon laguz or otherwise known as Ena's fiancee, and becomes his own personal mount just for his own enjoyment. She's forced to help Ashnard and even her own grandfather Nasir is involved to help steal the medallion. He even starts a huge war against crimea and Daein. All of these things that he does just make him an overall great villain.
Nergal is a very close personal favorite of mine because he's the emotionally complex villain. Nergal is well pretty subtle as far as villains go. He was once friends with the great Athos, but what changed him was his own intentions that he sought for such power to create the morphs for bad. What's tragic about him is that he wasn't even a bad person to begin with. He had a family(As shown in chapter 19xx) which he did truly care for with his all heart. His ideals, motive, and tragic background are all what makes him very interesting. He uses Ninian and Nils as the keys to unlock the Dragon's Gate. And of course trying to revive dragons to demise the world. But he also has the Black Fang under his own command besides the morphs which he creates.There's even one morph that actually was created by nergal and he completely rejected him in more or so the way of a failed experiment. He does the terrible things but is an emotionally complex villain all the same.. So there's much going for him. Also, his CG of that scar Athos gave him is freaking awesome.
Manfloy in particular is very different from the other FE villains. His main motive is to revive the Lopto Dark god by uniting the blood of Cigyun's daughter, Dierdre and his plan of brainwashing her to marry Alvis which is quite tragic. And it's incest since the two are related by blood, but it's to serve the purpose of the plot in such a way. He's more or so the main important person of the lopto cult, even if there really isn't necessarily a leader. And they're primarily responsible for the child huntings in Generation 2 of FE4. So I do find manfloy very fascinating for concocting such a fiendish scheme.
Alvis is a pretty memorable villain himself. What a terrific design he has in general. And he's the one you wouldn't even expect to be an obvious villain from the start. The first conversation with Sigurd would indicate that while he's not necessarily THAT impressed at Sigurd, but they seemed like they were on pretty good terms. But then that plot twist ending of Generation 1 is what sealed the deal. And he does it in a fiery celebration. He doesn't even allow him to even see Dierdre in his final moments. Now, that's pretty cold if you ask me. He even makes a return in Generation 2, and it's mostly because of him that Judgral is screwed up the way it is in that half of the game. But still that boss battle theme of his is pretty epic when you fight him when he's older.
So really it just depends on what qualities you like most in a villain. And I'm still deciding on it in the meantime..
Worst: I'd expect to see some votes for Veld. But if you ask me, he doesn't get any lines or does very much for me to judge. I completely understand that what he does in chapter 5 is pretty emotionally messed up. And the scene itself is pretty dramatic. But that's really all he does in the game and he leaves and returns to become the final boss.(Who obviously the worst boss of the series) But here's my problem... Why couldn't REDRIC be the main villain of FE5? There's actually build up from the beginning. He's the main central cause of the separation of Eyvel and Marita. Leif's whole entire reason to save Nanna and Eyvel is due to the fact that, he takes Nanna and Marita as hostage, and is pretty actively involved in FE5's storyline. Not against Veld or anything, but I'm just pointing out my reasoning.
Also, I don't think Hardin is a bad villain or really much of a villain in the slightest. Both him and Marth were good friends in shadow dragon. He was being used by Gharnef's plan. Even if the political marriage issue is a terrible thing, I wouldn't think that's what makes him a bad villain now does it?
But I do think Validar from FE13 is a bad villain, so he's my worst pick for the spot. And even if Mallow was being a bit harsh with him in her post, the points on him that she makes are pretty inexcusable. As for me, I personally find him to be a pretty boring villain. And he's around long enough for me to actually judge whether or not I find him interesting or not. And I just don't find him interesting... There are times when I felt he could've been interesting in some situations. Like the part where he deceives Chrom and the MU thinking that he's their allies. I thought that was a clever idea, but I feel he could've used it better to his advantage.
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:02 pm
I personally feel that how effective the villain's schemes were combined with how well written the villain is should be the criteria we go by. I don't know if anything else would really matter, since we're talking characters, not units.
The thing that prevents me from voting Manfloy best is that while he pretty much wins everything there is to win until the very last stint of the game, beyond the success of his schemes and how twisted they are, I don't find him to be particularly interesting as a character. The Lopt sect on the whole I think is very interesting, but Manfloy himself isn't that interesting a character. The most interesting thing about him, in my opinion, is the fact that by chapter 10 it is clear that he isn't on top of the food chain anymore (everyone wilts in Julius' presence). Also Sara.
I actually do think you are right about Veld. In a sense, he isn't any more important to FE Jugdral on the whole than any other re-occurring boss with a face.Granted, FE5 is a midquel and all of the big ticket bosses are taken out in FE4, but since he is his game's final boss, he should have more presence than he does (I'm on chapter 24 right now, OH LOOK THERE HE IS O HAI VELD).
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:53 pm
Best: Ashnard
Worst: Veld
-flies away-
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:59 pm
So alright I've considered my options as heavily as possible... And I've decided to go with Ashnard for best villain. Nergal was a very close call and I still like him. I was also considering Alvis too. Manfloy I actually had my doubts on since Tiki pointed something out. It's actually the Lopto cult themselves that I also find pretty fascinating as well.
He does plot a scheme, and while it's a good one, however, he's not really an interesting villain on his own. It's the cult that really bring things along. But Ashnard just an all around badass villain and is hard not to love. Sure, he may not be subtle and is obvious. But man the villainous things he does is just plain cool in comparison to the others. His boss theme is awesome. ASHNARD IS AWESOME. That is all. -drops the microphone-
OKAY. SO. First of all, let me just say that I think you really do have to look at what makes a good villain vs. a bad one. Personally, I think a good villain is, simply put, a good character--someone who is well thought out, well written, and well executed. The story also does have a part in this; their role in the story HAS to make sense, just as their actions do.
Best: Nergal (NINI YOU SO BIASED, I knooooooow). I don't know about y'all, but I personally like it when threads are woven throughout an entire story, and Nergal's thread goes back pretty stinkin' far into FE7. Nergal is pretty much everything I want in a villain, and I keep finding out new tidbits about him each time I play through FE7. I think everything else I could say about him as a villain has already been said, so I'll just keep this short, shall I?
Worst: Validar. Honestly, I was disappointed in Validar. I thought he had so much potential in the beginning, and the prologue builds him up to be at least the final-boss-before-the-real-final-boss status (like Lyon before Formortiis), but no such luck. After Emmeryn's failed assassination attempt, I just felt that Validar was being carried along by Grima. I kept waiting for him to have more importance, and maybe he did in the original bad timeline Lucina comes from, but we don't see that in the game. I really wish Validar had been a stronger villain that he was.
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:40 pm
Best: Lyon
Worst: Veld
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:34 am
Best: Loki Ashnard
Worst: Formortiis
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:56 pm
I would like to point out, based on the games I've played, that Formortiis is second for Worst Villain and only wins over Validar for sheer ham (which is a part of every balanced diet!) and the fact that he actually accomplishes some stuff. And he destroys Grado, that's gotta count for something.
But dear god if he isn't the cheesiest villain.
I'd vote for that one dude that does that thing to Eyvel that makes all the players go ;n; if he apparently had more screentime and if I'd played that game, as a note. Just sounds lazy.
Now before I get to this weeks topic I want to mention a few things.
1. I'm still going to be updating on Sundays. This is a one time thing to update on Monday.
2. PLEASE be clear with your picks. There should be no and/or in the pick unless there are honorable/dishonorable mentions.
This weeks topic is: Best/Worst Camus Archtype
http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Archetype#Camus for more information.
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:14 pm
*looks through the whole archetype lists* ...some of these have been edited and I do not agree with some of the characters listed or not listed in places.
Best: For me, Eldigan. His situation is a lot more complex than most others. We can truly see that he's an honorable man from the way he acts, not just from the game having people say so. But I think the most compelling thing for me is his connection with Sigurd, Cuan and RAQUESIS. I think it's also cool that
you don't have to kill him yourself. He'll actually LISTEN to you and retreat, even though in the end, the result is the same.
HM: Ishtar mostly, but also some others. Cool archetype is cool.
Here's the thing with Selena; it's not the game's fault. She's a believable real person, and not beyond pity. She's just being stupid because she refuses to do anything even though she knows that something is wrong. She cares more about Vigarde seeing her in a good light than what's truly right; which is why she actually agrees to carry out the order to kill Duessel.
Then later, she faces us. Girl, do you not see Duessel out there? Why in the flipping hell can you not be like him. They even have a battle conversation, which I'm glad about, but it doesn't hold much substance. She just says she has no regrets in the choice she's made.... yeah, the choice you made to not be brave and do what's right because you regard Vigarde's praise over morality. So disappointing, considering you were one of the 3 'good' generals. You sure don't act like it beyond your words. It's easy to do good things when everything is fine, but when you know something's wrong, you won't? Girl, bye.
An interesting character, but her situation reveals her to be a weak person that infuriates me, because it's so easy for her to do the right thing and yet in her mind, it's impossible. With other camus', they've got other things going on. She's a lot like Brunya though, but what makes me pick Selena is that while Brunya's counterparts do not join, signifying the true sense of loyalty they all had for either Zepheil or Bern, Selena's counterpart DOES join. Also, Selena's fighting more for Vigarde's praise rather than what she thinks to be for the good of Grado at that point. Other camus' actions I tend to understand, but her I have a really hard time with.
HM: Shiharam because Tanith blows a hole right through his camus mask. Levail because the game just kind of drops him off and we don't really get any resolution with him, nor do we even have to fight him, so why isn't he around afterwards if we didn't kill him? There's decent buildup for the game to, yet again, forget about a cool character.
Actually a good chunk of the whole archetypes list doesn't really make any sense to me.
Best: I'll go with Eltshan as he still is a my favorite of mine in FE4. Or Eldigan whatever name you prefer... I do like the camus archetype as a whole. But Eltshan I felt was the first one where I became emotionally invested in a character. At least compared to the other camus archetypes I've seen, he seems to be the most interesting out of the bunch. When I was revisting FE4 again for the draft,(Which I hopefully can get back to again...) I've started to remember the reason why I liked this character so much. There's just some terrific dialogue and some memorable moments with him.
While he is very loyal to his own country Agustria, there's so much conflict going on. Elsthan even goes as far to help a man that threw him in the dungeon, that's how loyal he is to his country. He has to fight against his own best friend in battle. It's his honor and pride that comes first, even if Sigurd is a pretty close friend he'll do whatever is necessary.(With that bloody sword mistolin in his hands.) Of course pretty much what Rath mentioned, there is talking to him with Lachesis which will still result in his death. It does give some huge drama in his death in the end. But what stands out the most is that all three of them Cuan, Sigurd, Eltshan have been strong friends since they've been knights back in the academy. And I'm also a bit of a sucker for his character design. I think it looks pretty cool personally.
Worst: Selena. JustSELENA.emotion_facepalm
Just thought I'd clarify my decision a tad bit. I think she's merely the worst because how of she is written as a Camus archetype in FE8. When we were first introduced to her in Eirika's story she didn't know that Eirika was the princess of Renais, Since Eirika thought Erina would be a clever name to disguise herself.(And somehow that worked.) That being beside the point, but you could tell she was a good person and was kind at heart. The problem with Selena the later parts of the game. The reason she fights for Grado is because she's loyal to emperor Vigarde. It's not so much the kingdom itself but only for the emperor.
At least Duessel eventually figured that Grado isn't the same as it used to be. The king has changed but why doesn't Selena see that either? Instead she's still loyal to a king that isn't even alive anymore.(But she doesn't know that) What's even her reason to be fighting Ephraim/Eirika? Duessel was also a one of the 6 general for grado before, yet she fights against him in the battlefield. It's like what's the point of fighting against them? So I dunno, it's just that it feels to be a weak characterization to me is all.
